50' Mather stock cars
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Steve SANDIFER
I assume many of this group are on the OpSig group that discussed Live Stock Operations today. The question concerned the 50’ Mather stock cars.
Mather cars were generally leased cars. Beginning in 1952 Mather spliced together pairs of 40’ cars, retaining the doors of both cars, producing a 50’ stock car. Cars in that configuration were operated by the NKP (Photo 42023 1966) NYC (as NISX painted Jade Green in 1966). The NISX cars were frequently seen on the Q. Photo NISX 3169 Freight Cars - Lake States Railway Historical Association (lakestatesarchive.org) and Freight Cars - Lake States Railway Historical Association (lakestatesarchive.org) CB&Q, 40 cars (50200-50239) for use in sheep and hog service which lasted until at least 1968. Maybe Doug or someone else can add more details to this discussion.
For more info: Burlington Bulletin, No. 25 Model Railroader, January, 1998
J. Stephen Sandifer
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Steve are you referring to Mat Thompson’s presentation on Operations at his Swift Meat packing plant? I was not able to participate in the OpSig event, so I did not hear the question. I am familiar with Mat’s presentation and I know he does use some 50’ Mather cars that he kitbashed from the Lifelike PK2 models.
Regarding the 50’ Mather stockcars, you covered the basic information about the cars. I’m not sure I can add much more. Stan Radarowyche (sp) offered parts to kitbash two PK2 stockcars into a 50’ car. And I believe he published an article on how to do the kitbash. As these cars were created after my modeling era, I have not paid a lot of attention to them.
If I knew what was the question I might be able to help answer.
Doug Harding www.iowacentralrr.org
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Steve SANDIFER
Sent: Sunday, January 3, 2021 8:07 PM To: Steam Freight Car <RealSTMFC@groups.io> Subject: [RealSTMFC] 50' Mather stock cars
I assume many of this group are on the OpSig group that discussed Live Stock Operations today. The question concerned the 50’ Mather stock cars.
Mather cars were generally leased cars. Beginning in 1952 Mather spliced together pairs of 40’ cars, retaining the doors of both cars, producing a 50’ stock car. Cars in that configuration were operated by the NKP (Photo 42023 1966) NYC (as NISX painted Jade Green in 1966). The NISX cars were frequently seen on the Q. Photo NISX 3169 Freight Cars - Lake States Railway Historical Association (lakestatesarchive.org) and Freight Cars - Lake States Railway Historical Association (lakestatesarchive.org) CB&Q, 40 cars (50200-50239) for use in sheep and hog service which lasted until at least 1968. Maybe Doug or someone else can add more details to this discussion.
For more info: Burlington Bulletin, No. 25 Model Railroader, January, 1998
J. Stephen Sandifer
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Mat Thompson
The question I remember was simple – didn’t the 50 foot cars create a problem with lining them up with the ramps on older stock pens? My answer was yes but did comment that I have some pens built with ramp spacing for 50 foot cars and that information was included on the note the company rep provide the conductor. I didn’t think about it at the time but many pens had platforms trackside. Drovers would put up temporary fences to herd animals onto the ramps.
The article to build these cars was in the January 1998 Model Railroader, written by Jim Teese. It includes one picture of an NKP prototype. He says Mather began joining cars in 1952. He also said he ordered Bulletin #25 from the Burlington Route Historical Society which contained some information on the cars. That Bulletin is still listed on their website.
Jeff Wilson has a picture of CB&Q 50237 on page 17 of his book Livestock & Meatpacking. Jeff notes that most conversions were double deck but a few were shingle deck.
Mat Thompson
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Mont Switzer
All,
When we talk about stock cars we usually think of long cuts of them loaded with enough cattle to be called a herd. In my part of the country there were a lot of hog farmers who took their fattened hogs to the local stock yard when ready This resulted in single car pickups with their cars spotted for this or live loading on a local train. This was almost always one car at a time and the hogs moved a relatively short distance. Fifty foot cars would not be a problem for this.
Mont From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] on behalf of Mat Thompson [ocrr@...]
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2021 8:03 AM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] 50' Mather stock cars The question I remember was simple – didn’t the 50 foot cars create a problem with lining them up with the ramps on older stock pens? My answer was yes but did comment that I have some pens built with ramp spacing for 50 foot cars and that information was included on the note the company rep provide the conductor. I didn’t think about it at the time but many pens had platforms trackside. Drovers would put up temporary fences to herd animals onto the ramps.
The article to build these cars was in the January 1998 Model Railroader, written by Jim Teese. It includes one picture of an NKP prototype. He says Mather began joining cars in 1952. He also said he ordered Bulletin #25 from the Burlington Route Historical Society which contained some information on the cars. That Bulletin is still listed on their website.
Jeff Wilson has a picture of CB&Q 50237 on page 17 of his book Livestock & Meatpacking. Jeff notes that most conversions were double deck but a few were shingle deck.
Mat Thompson
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Steve SANDIFER
Excellent clinic. Most modelers seem to think it is stock cars in, reefers out. Ha.
J. Stephen Sandifer
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mat Thompson
Sent: Monday, January 4, 2021 7:03 AM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] 50' Mather stock cars
The question I remember was simple – didn’t the 50 foot cars create a problem with lining them up with the ramps on older stock pens? My answer was yes but did comment that I have some pens built with ramp spacing for 50 foot cars and that information was included on the note the company rep provide the conductor. I didn’t think about it at the time but many pens had platforms trackside. Drovers would put up temporary fences to herd animals onto the ramps.
The article to build these cars was in the January 1998 Model Railroader, written by Jim Teese. It includes one picture of an NKP prototype. He says Mather began joining cars in 1952. He also said he ordered Bulletin #25 from the Burlington Route Historical Society which contained some information on the cars. That Bulletin is still listed on their website.
Jeff Wilson has a picture of CB&Q 50237 on page 17 of his book Livestock & Meatpacking. Jeff notes that most conversions were double deck but a few were shingle deck.
Mat Thompson
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Ah, now that I know the question I can answer. Mont makes an excellent point. At many rural locations there was only one loading chute at the local stockpens, so car length was not an issue. Each car had to be spotted. At the large “union” stockyards, the unloading platform often ran the entire length of the pens, as seen in the attached photo of the LA stockyards. These platforms were equipped with swing gates that could be extended. These gates accommodated a car that was not spotted exactly at the chute.
The CBQ had an extensive fleet of 36’ stockcars. In the early 60’s Mather rebuilt ex B&O stockcars that came off lease into 50’ cars that were leased to the CBQ (and painted Chinese Red). These cars were no doubt unloaded in Omaha, Chicago and other major stockyards with lots of consternation by crews because of the differences in car length.
Remember that there were also 86’ pig palaces and the UP had 60’ HOGX cars. These were all accommodated at loading and unloading facilities by the railroads.
Doug Harding www.iowacentralrr.org
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mont Switzer
Sent: Monday, January 4, 2021 7:42 AM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] 50' Mather stock cars
All,
When we talk about stock cars we usually think of long cuts of them loaded with enough cattle to be called a herd. In my part of the country there were a lot of hog farmers who took their fattened hogs to the local stock yard when ready This resulted in single car pickups with their cars spotted for this or live loading on a local train. This was almost always one car at a time and the hogs moved a relatively short distance. Fifty foot cars would not be a problem for this.
Mont From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] on behalf of Mat Thompson [ocrr@...] The question I remember was simple – didn’t the 50 foot cars create a problem with lining them up with the ramps on older stock pens? My answer was yes but did comment that I have some pens built with ramp spacing for 50 foot cars and that information was included on the note the company rep provide the conductor. I didn’t think about it at the time but many pens had platforms trackside. Drovers would put up temporary fences to herd animals onto the ramps.
The article to build these cars was in the January 1998 Model Railroader, written by Jim Teese. It includes one picture of an NKP prototype. He says Mather began joining cars in 1952. He also said he ordered Bulletin #25 from the Burlington Route Historical Society which contained some information on the cars. That Bulletin is still listed on their website.
Jeff Wilson has a picture of CB&Q 50237 on page 17 of his book Livestock & Meatpacking. Jeff notes that most conversions were double deck but a few were shingle deck.
Mat Thompson
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Clark Propst
Stan Rydarowicz sold a kit for this car. There are two finished models in a late friends estate. If anyone is interested in them I can put you in contact with the person doing the liquidating? Please contact me off list Clark Propst
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
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William Hirt
On the Burlington, the main purpose of the enlarged Mather cars was to haul hogs from western Illinois to Tobin Packing in Rochester and Albany NY. These cars could hold up to 200 hogs, so they were preferred by the packing house and shippers. However, based on a presentation by Steve Holding (a retired CB&Q-BN-BNSF dispatcher and who grew up on a hog farm in western Illinois), most of the Mather 50 foot car use on the Burlington came after the 1960 limit of this list (1965). Bill Hirt On 1/4/2021 7:03 AM, Mat Thompson
wrote:
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Ray Breyer
A couple of points: Mather ceased to exist in mid-1956. And as far as I've been able to determine Mather never owned ANY 50-foot cars (they did own a few 48-foot horse cars in the early 1900s). That makes these stretched cars North American cars, not Mather, and were likely fabricated after 1960 (and photos of the NKP leased cars show them with Murphy roofs, not Mather patent). Ray Breyer Elgin, IL
On Monday, January 4, 2021, 08:33:52 AM CST, Douglas Harding <iowacentralrr@...> wrote:
Ah, now that I know the question I can answer. Mont makes an excellent point. At many rural locations there was only one loading chute at the local stockpens, so car length was not an issue. Each car had to be spotted. At the large “union” stockyards, the unloading platform often ran the entire length of the pens, as seen in the attached photo of the LA stockyards. These platforms were equipped with swing gates that could be extended. These gates accommodated a car that was not spotted exactly at the chute.
The CBQ had an extensive fleet of 36’ stockcars. In the early 60’s Mather rebuilt ex B&O stockcars that came off lease into 50’ cars that were leased to the CBQ (and painted Chinese Red). These cars were no doubt unloaded in Omaha, Chicago and other major stockyards with lots of consternation by crews because of the differences in car length.
Remember that there were also 86’ pig palaces and the UP had 60’ HOGX cars. These were all accommodated at loading and unloading facilities by the railroads.
Doug Harding www.iowacentralrr.org
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mont Switzer
Sent: Monday, January 4, 2021 7:42 AM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] 50' Mather stock cars
All,
When we talk about stock cars we usually think of long cuts of them loaded with enough cattle to be called a herd. In my part of the country there were a lot of hog farmers who took their fattened hogs to the local stock yard when ready This resulted in single car pickups with their cars spotted for this or live loading on a local train. This was almost always one car at a time and the hogs moved a relatively short distance. Fifty foot cars would not be a problem for this.
Mont From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] on behalf of Mat Thompson [ocrr@...] The question I remember was simple – didn’t the 50 foot cars create a problem with lining them up with the ramps on older stock pens? My answer was yes but did comment that I have some pens built with ramp spacing for 50 foot cars and that information was included on the note the company rep provide the conductor. I didn’t think about it at the time but many pens had platforms trackside. Drovers would put up temporary fences to herd animals onto the ramps.
The article to build these cars was in the January 1998 Model Railroader, written by Jim Teese. It includes one picture of an NKP prototype. He says Mather began joining cars in 1952. He also said he ordered Bulletin #25 from the Burlington Route Historical Society which contained some information on the cars. That Bulletin is still listed on their website.
Jeff Wilson has a picture of CB&Q 50237 on page 17 of his book Livestock & Meatpacking. Jeff notes that most conversions were double deck but a few were shingle deck.
Mat Thompson
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Ray Breyer
I haven't been able to find any evidence of the 50-foot cars being converted in 1952. 1962 is more likely a correct date, but by then Mather didn't exist. Where did the 1952 date come from? I'm working on a full timeline of Mather from 1880-1956, and I'd love to see that data. Ray Breyer Elgin, IL
On Sunday, January 3, 2021, 08:06:44 PM CST, Steve SANDIFER <steve.sandifer@...> wrote:
I assume many of this group are on the OpSig group that discussed Live Stock Operations today. The question concerned the 50’ Mather stock cars.
Mather cars were generally leased cars. Beginning in 1952 Mather spliced together pairs of 40’ cars, retaining the doors of both cars, producing a 50’ stock car. Cars in that configuration were operated by the NKP (Photo 42023 1966) NYC (as NISX painted Jade Green in 1966). The NISX cars were frequently seen on the Q. Photo NISX 3169 Freight Cars - Lake States Railway Historical Association (lakestatesarchive.org) and Freight Cars - Lake States Railway Historical Association (lakestatesarchive.org) CB&Q, 40 cars (50200-50239) for use in sheep and hog service which lasted until at least 1968. Maybe Doug or someone else can add more details to this discussion.
For more info: Burlington Bulletin, No. 25 Model Railroader, January, 1998
J. Stephen Sandifer
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Steve SANDIFER
1952 is he date given in the Burlington Bulletin. However, I searched the 1959 ORER that I have and could not find them in NYC, CB&Q, NKP, or North American listings. The few photos I have found were all taken in the 1966-68 date range.
J. Stephen Sandifer
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ray Breyer via groups.io
Sent: Monday, January 4, 2021 6:45 PM To: Steam Freight Car <realstmfc@groups.io>; main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] 50' Mather stock cars
I haven't been able to find any evidence of the 50-foot cars being converted in 1952. 1962 is more likely a correct date, but by then Mather didn't exist.
Where did the 1952 date come from? I'm working on a full timeline of Mather from 1880-1956, and I'd love to see that data.
Ray Breyer
On Sunday, January 3, 2021, 08:06:44 PM CST, Steve SANDIFER <steve.sandifer@...> wrote:
I assume many of this group are on the OpSig group that discussed Live Stock Operations today. The question concerned the 50’ Mather stock cars.
Mather cars were generally leased cars. Beginning in 1952 Mather spliced together pairs of 40’ cars, retaining the doors of both cars, producing a 50’ stock car. Cars in that configuration were operated by the NKP (Photo 42023 1966) NYC (as NISX painted Jade Green in 1966). The NISX cars were frequently seen on the Q. Photo NISX 3169 Freight Cars - Lake States Railway Historical Association (lakestatesarchive.org) and Freight Cars - Lake States Railway Historical Association (lakestatesarchive.org) CB&Q, 40 cars (50200-50239) for use in sheep and hog service which lasted until at least 1968. Maybe Doug or someone else can add more details to this discussion.
For more info: Burlington Bulletin, No. 25 Model Railroader, January, 1998
J. Stephen Sandifer
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Rupert Gamlen
To provide some clarification to the discussion (looking into the future) - According to ORER’s, the first group of CB&Q leased Mather cars, 20000-20139 (40’ 3” inside length) was received between February 1960 and August 1960 The second group 50200-50239 (50’ inside length) was received between May 1965 and April 1966.
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Steve SANDIFER
Sent: Tuesday, 5 January 2021 1:55 pm To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] 50' Mather stock cars
1952 is he date given in the Burlington Bulletin. However, I searched the 1959 ORER that I have and could not find them in NYC, CB&Q, NKP, or North American listings. The few photos I have found were all taken in the 1966-68 date range.
J. Stephen Sandifer
From:
main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Ray Breyer via groups.io
I haven't been able to find any evidence of the 50-foot cars being converted in 1952. 1962 is more likely a correct date, but by then Mather didn't exist.
Where did the 1952 date come from? I'm working on a full timeline of Mather from 1880-1956, and I'd love to see that data.
Ray Breyer
On Sunday, January 3, 2021, 08:06:44 PM CST, Steve SANDIFER <steve.sandifer@...> wrote:
I assume many of this group are on the OpSig group that discussed Live Stock Operations today. The question concerned the 50’ Mather stock cars.
Mather cars were generally leased cars. Beginning in 1952 Mather spliced together pairs of 40’ cars, retaining the doors of both cars, producing a 50’ stock car. Cars in that configuration were operated by the NKP (Photo 42023 1966) NYC (as NISX painted Jade Green in 1966). The NISX cars were frequently seen on the Q. Photo NISX 3169 Freight Cars - Lake States Railway Historical Association (lakestatesarchive.org) and Freight Cars - Lake States Railway Historical Association (lakestatesarchive.org) CB&Q, 40 cars (50200-50239) for use in sheep and hog service which lasted until at least 1968. Maybe Doug or someone else can add more details to this discussion.
For more info: Burlington Bulletin, No. 25 Model Railroader, January, 1998
J. Stephen Sandifer
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Mat Thompson
There is a question of where did the 1952 date come from for conversion of Mather cars to 50 feet.
The January 1998 Model Railroader article by Jim Teese says conversions began in 1952. He also said his source information came from the Burlington Route Historical Society Bulletin no. 25 (April 1992) which is still listed on their website but I have not seen it.
Jeff Wilson, in his Kalmbach book Livestock & Meatpacking, says Mather “In the late 50s, rebuilt some of it 40-foot cars into 50-footers” (page 19). The same Burlington Route Bulletin is listed in the book’s Bibliography but I don’t know if that is the source of the late 50s comment.
Mat Thompson
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Richard Townsend
Burlington Bulletin No. 25 says, in its discussion of the CB&Q's leasing of 40 and 50-foot Mather stock cars in 1963, at page 86, "The 50-foot cars had been created in the Mather shops about 1952 by splicing together pairs of 40-foot cars . . .." It further mentions that the NKP and NYC operated identical leased cars. Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR
-----Original Message-----
From: Mat Thompson <ocrr@...> To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> Sent: Mon, Jan 4, 2021 5:22 pm Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] 50' Mather stock cars There is a question of where did the 1952 date come from for conversion of Mather cars to 50 feet.
The January 1998 Model Railroader article by Jim Teese says conversions began in 1952. He also said his source information came from the Burlington Route Historical Society Bulletin no. 25 (April 1992) which is still listed on their website but I have not seen it.
Jeff Wilson, in his Kalmbach book Livestock & Meatpacking, says Mather “In the late 50s, rebuilt some of it 40-foot cars into 50-footers” (page 19). The same Burlington Route Bulletin is listed in the book’s Bibliography but I don’t know if that is the source of the late 50s comment.
Mat Thompson
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Ray Hutchison
HOGX reporting marks would be pretty cool...
rh |
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Ray Breyer
I'm looking for primary source material, not "hobby wisdom". It appears that "the Fifties" as a date came from the Burlington article. Where did that piece get its information from? Ray Breyer Elgin, IL
On Monday, January 4, 2021, 07:23:11 PM CST, Mat Thompson <ocrr@...> wrote:
There is a question of where did the 1952 date come from for conversion of Mather cars to 50 feet.
The January 1998 Model Railroader article by Jim Teese says conversions began in 1952. He also said his source information came from the Burlington Route Historical Society Bulletin no. 25 (April 1992) which is still listed on their website but I have not seen it.
Jeff Wilson, in his Kalmbach book Livestock & Meatpacking, says Mather “In the late 50s, rebuilt some of it 40-foot cars into 50-footers” (page 19). The same Burlington Route Bulletin is listed in the book’s Bibliography but I don’t know if that is the source of the late 50s comment.
Mat Thompson
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CB&Q leased cars also carried MSCX reporting marks. On 1/4/2021 8:18 PM, Rupert Gamlen wrote:
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Tim O'Connor Sterling, Massachusetts |
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A good point! Primary sources would be ORERs, equipment diagrams, Railway Age, correctly dated photos, etc. A great deal of inaccurate information has been published in books and in hobby magazines. On 1/5/2021 9:21 AM, Ray Breyer via groups.io wrote:
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Tim O'Connor Sterling, Massachusetts |
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I am stunned to see that CB&Q still rostered 2,300 stock cars in 1965! Only 97 of them were 50 foot cars. On 1/4/2021 7:45 PM, Ray Breyer via groups.io wrote:
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Tim O'Connor Sterling, Massachusetts |
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Schuyler Larrabee
Meaning that these cars should be on the BBFCL, or the MFCL, not here.
Schuyler
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Tim O'Connor
Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2021 10:46 AM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] 50' Mather stock cars
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