7' wide 10' IH Youngstown door for CRP XM-4


nyc3001 .
 

Hi guys,

I just acquired a Sunshine kit for a CRP XM-4, but it was for the Superior door version. I want to make this car the Youngstown door version as there were more than twice as many. Does anyone know if there's a source for the right Youngstown door? If not I may have to splice.

Thanks,
Phil Lee


James Cummings
 

I think sectioning and removing one rib from Branchlne's 7' wide door on their 10'-6" AAR car is the best way. James


Brian Carlson
 

The panel count is wrong for CNJ doors. Sectioning won’t work. 

Brian J. Carlson 

On Jul 14, 2022, at 7:12 AM, James Cummings <jkcummings125@...> wrote:

I think sectioning and removing one rib from Branchlne's 7' wide door on their 10'-6" AAR car is the best way. James

--
Brian J. Carlson, P.E.
Cheektowaga NY


James Cummings
 
Edited

We are talking about the three panel 4-5-5 Youngstown doors here which both the 10' CNJ and the 10'-6" AAR cars have. It's been a while since I did this modification, so I was wrong in saying a rib has to be removed. The differences here in the model are approximately 1/16". This is made up by sectioning the lower door frame closer to the bottom rib (cast-on levers will have to be redone) and removing a little material from the ends of the top and bottom of the doors.  James


Tim O'Connor
 


That's a 5-6-5 Youngstown door yes? Dan Hall made a 6 foot 5-6-5 door (#614) that may work
with some vertical splices and then resin molds and casting. Many prototype cars had 5-6-5 but I
don't know how many of those had 7 foot doors.


On 7/13/2022 9:03 PM, nyc3001 . wrote:
Hi guys,

I just acquired a Sunshine kit for a CRP XM-4, but it was for the Superior door version. I want to make this car the Youngstown door version as there were more than twice as many. Does anyone know if there's a source for the right Youngstown door? If not I may have to splice.

Thanks,
Phil Lee

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Brian Carlson
 

Yes. The 7’ is the issue. The Dan Hall 10 ft doors are Out of stock. 

On Jul 14, 2022, at 10:49 AM, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:



That's a 5-6-5 Youngstown door yes? Dan Hall made a 6 foot 5-6-5 door (#614) that may work
with some vertical splices and then resin molds and casting. Many prototype cars had 5-6-5 but I
don't know how many of those had 7 foot doors.


On 7/13/2022 9:03 PM, nyc3001 . wrote:
Hi guys,

I just acquired a Sunshine kit for a CRP XM-4, but it was for the Superior door version. I want to make this car the Youngstown door version as there were more than twice as many. Does anyone know if there's a source for the right Youngstown door? If not I may have to splice.

Thanks,
Phil Lee

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

--
Brian J. Carlson, P.E.
Cheektowaga NY


nyc3001 .
 

Thanks guys. This is a 5-6-5 door as in the below photo.

Tim, I'm not sure about 10'6 IH, but after looking a bit, afaik the CNJ cars might be the only prototype 10' IH.cars with that style of Youngstown door.

-Phil


Jeff Helm
 

Best to check with Dan via email on inventory, as he has restocked but the Southwest Scale website is not updated.  He may actually have those 6’ doors.
--
Cheers

Jeff Helm
The Olympic Peninsula Branch
https://olympicpeninsulabranch.blogspot.com/


Tim O'Connor
 


Here's one in 1961 (!) on the M&StL I think.

On 7/14/2022 3:54 PM, nyc3001 . wrote:
Thanks guys. This is a 5-6-5 door as in the below photo.

Tim, I'm not sure about 10'6 IH, but after looking a bit, afaik the CNJ cars might be the only prototype 10' IH.cars with that style of Youngstown door.

-Phil

Attachments:



--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Andy Carlson
 

The most common of improved Youngstown steel doors was the 5/6/6, used in multible widths for nominal 10'6" height box cars. Two common versions of the YSD was as a 5/6/5 and not as well used, the 4/6/6.

For a 7' wide 5/6/5 YSD, I would not work with the Southwest Scale Models 6' wide version, as that would involve two splice lines-one on each side of the center. A much easier route would be to use a Branchline (Now Atlas) 7' 5/6/6 YSD and simply cuting one panel on the bottom section. I would remove the panel just below the bottom horizontal splice line. Whenever I can, I like to make these changes right on the rib, where the witness line will be essentially unobserved, just like you would do on Stanray Murphy panel roofs.
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA

On Thursday, July 14, 2022 at 02:55:15 PM PDT, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:



Here's one in 1961 (!) on the M&StL I think.

On 7/14/2022 3:54 PM, nyc3001 . wrote:
Thanks guys. This is a 5-6-5 door as in the below photo.

Tim, I'm not sure about 10'6 IH, but after looking a bit, afaik the CNJ cars might be the only prototype 10' IH.cars with that style of Youngstown door.

-Phil

Attachments:



--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Tim O'Connor
 


Good idea Andy. To make the cut I lay down sharp edged 3M tape exactly horizontal
and position a single edge razor blade... on a hard surface and thwhack! a single blow
makes the cut. :-)
 

On 7/14/2022 8:17 PM, Andy Carlson wrote:
The most common of improved Youngstown steel doors was the 5/6/6, used in multible widths for nominal 10'6" height box cars. Two common versions of the YSD was as a 5/6/5 and not as well used, the 4/6/6.

For a 7' wide 5/6/5 YSD, I would not work with the Southwest Scale Models 6' wide version, as that would involve two splice lines-one on each side of the center. A much easier route would be to use a Branchline (Now Atlas) 7' 5/6/6 YSD and simply cuting one panel on the bottom section. I would remove the panel just below the bottom horizontal splice line. Whenever I can, I like to make these changes right on the rib, where the witness line will be essentially unobserved, just like you would do on Stanray Murphy panel roofs.
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA

On Thursday, July 14, 2022 at 02:55:15 PM PDT, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:



Here's one in 1961 (!) on the M&StL I think.

On 7/14/2022 3:54 PM, nyc3001 . wrote:
Thanks guys. This is a 5-6-5 door as in the below photo.

Tim, I'm not sure about 10'6 IH, but after looking a bit, afaik the CNJ cars might be the only prototype 10' IH.cars with that style of Youngstown door.

-Phil

Attachments:



--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

Attachments:


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Jim Betz
 

Tim/anyone,
  I'm not challenging the differences - but I have a question ...

  Why would a railroad order/use a 5/6/6 -vs- a 5/6/5 -vs- a 4/6/6 ... etc.?  Other
than a spotting freature why did Youngstown make different configuration for 
a "nominal 10'6" height door?  
  Were these actually made so they would fit 'slight' (?) differences in height?
Done at different times ("evolving technology")?  Some other reason?

  And, for that matter, was there a significant difference between the Youngstown
doors and some other makers?

  Or was it all about the cost ... at a point in time?
                                                                                                      - Jim in the PNW


hubert mask
 

Usually door variations were determined by satisfying the shipper’s needs for loading and unloading at consignee .  It’s my thinking that is why there no door one size fits all.
Just my thinking. 

Hubert Mask


On Jul 15, 2022, at 10:51 AM, Jim Betz <jimbetz@...> wrote:

Tim/anyone,
  I'm not challenging the differences - but I have a question ...

  Why would a railroad order/use a 5/6/6 -vs- a 5/6/5 -vs- a 4/6/6 ... etc.?  Other
than a spotting freature why did Youngstown make different configuration for 
a "nominal 10'6" height door?  
  Were these actually made so they would fit 'slight' (?) differences in height?
Done at different times ("evolving technology")?  Some other reason?

  And, for that matter, was there a significant difference between the Youngstown
doors and some other makers?

  Or was it all about the cost ... at a point in time?
                                                                                                      - Jim in the PNW


Dennis Storzek <dennis@...>
 

On Fri, Jul 15, 2022 at 12:45 PM, hubert mask wrote:
Usually door variations were determined by satisfying the shipper’s needs for loading and unloading at consignee .  It’s my thinking that is why there no door one size fits all.
Just my thinking. 
Yeah but... we're not talking about the size of the door here, but rather the relative size of the panels that make up the door. It's easy to see why the stamped steel ends on the USRA cars were three panels; the cars were five inches taller than what came before, and likely two panels would exceed the size of the available stamping presses, especially on short notice. But these doors used different combinations of panels at different times. I suspect the answer lies in what other doors the three panels were also used in, and which panel (top, middle, or bottom) was easiest to build a tool for, considering the low production anticipated after the AAR standard went to 10'-6" IH.

Dennis Storzek
 


Richard Townsend
 

Pure, uninformed speculation: Could it also have to do with the thickness of the steel used in the various door panels, similar to what was done with car ends? For example, could the bottom panel of the door been of a heavier gauge steel, with the different panel heights depending on how high the car owner wanted the heavier gauge steel to extend?

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR


-----Original Message-----
From: Dennis Storzek <dennis@...>
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Sent: Fri, Jul 15, 2022 1:08 pm
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] 7' wide 10' IH Youngstown door for CRP XM-4

On Fri, Jul 15, 2022 at 12:45 PM, hubert mask wrote:
Usually door variations were determined by satisfying the shipper’s needs for loading and unloading at consignee .  It’s my thinking that is why there no door one size fits all.
Just my thinking. 
Yeah but... we're not talking about the size of the door here, but rather the relative size of the panels that make up the door. It's easy to see why the stamped steel ends on the USRA cars were three panels; the cars were five inches taller than what came before, and likely two panels would exceed the size of the available stamping presses, especially on short notice. But these doors used different combinations of panels at different times. I suspect the answer lies in what other doors the three panels were also used in, and which panel (top, middle, or bottom) was easiest to build a tool for, considering the low production anticipated after the AAR standard went to 10'-6" IH.

Dennis Storzek
 


Tim O'Connor
 

Richard

It's a thought ! As forklifts came into use, workers began using them to open the doors! By the
1960's it was causing so much damage that they added special brackets to the doors placed there
for the forklifts to use!


On 7/15/2022 6:18 PM, Richard Townsend via groups.io wrote:
Pure, uninformed speculation: Could it also have to do with the thickness of the steel used in the various door panels, similar to what was done with car ends? For example, could the bottom panel of the door been of a heavier gauge steel, with the different panel heights depending on how high the car owner wanted the heavier gauge steel to extend?

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR


-----Original Message-----
From: Dennis Storzek <dennis@...>
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Sent: Fri, Jul 15, 2022 1:08 pm
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] 7' wide 10' IH Youngstown door for CRP XM-4

On Fri, Jul 15, 2022 at 12:45 PM, hubert mask wrote:
Usually door variations were determined by satisfying the shipper’s needs for loading and unloading at consignee .  It’s my thinking that is why there no door one size fits all.
Just my thinking. 
Yeah but... we're not talking about the size of the door here, but rather the relative size of the panels that make up the door. It's easy to see why the stamped steel ends on the USRA cars were three panels; the cars were five inches taller than what came before, and likely two panels would exceed the size of the available stamping presses, especially on short notice. But these doors used different combinations of panels at different times. I suspect the answer lies in what other doors the three panels were also used in, and which panel (top, middle, or bottom) was easiest to build a tool for, considering the low production anticipated after the AAR standard went to 10'-6" IH.

Dennis Storzek


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Dennis Storzek <dennis@...>
 

On Fri, Jul 15, 2022 at 03:18 PM, Richard Townsend wrote:
Pure, uninformed speculation: Could it also have to do with the thickness of the steel used in the various door panels, similar to what was done with car ends? For example, could the bottom panel of the door been of a heavier gauge steel, with the different panel heights depending on how high the car owner wanted the heavier gauge steel to extend?
Speculation, yes, but I tend to doubt that by this point in time the railroads specified the details of the vendor supplied products... they would order what the vendor offered. Anything else would be a 'special' with the higher cost that would entail. That's not saying Youngstown didn't decide to put the larger panel on the bottom for just this reason, either on their own or at the prompting of one or more customers, but it appears that once the change was made it became the new 'standard'. Does anyone know if the bottom panel actually was heavier gauge steel? I don't have easy access to any YSDCo. drawings.

Dennis Storzek


Jim Betz
 

  I was driving near Yakima, Wa. once and saw a fork lift driver using his forks
to move a car a hundred or so yards down a siding. The forks were against
the side of the car not the end.  Creative?  Yes.  Possible damage?  Almost
certain if anything slowed the car down before he stopped shoving on it.
                    - Jim in the PNW


Douglas Harding
 

Photo taken on the MSTL (Lime Creek bridge) just south of the depot, in Mason City IA, 1961 by Soph Marty.

 

Doug Harding

https://www.facebook.com/douglas.harding.3156/

Youtube: Douglas Harding Iowa Central Railroad

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Tim O'Connor
Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2022 4:55 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] 7' wide 10' IH Youngstown door for CRP XM-4

 


Here's one in 1961 (!) on the M&StL I think.

On 7/14/2022 3:54 PM, nyc3001 . wrote:

Thanks guys. This is a 5-6-5 door as in the below photo.

Tim, I'm not sure about 10'6 IH, but after looking a bit, afaik the CNJ cars might be the only prototype 10' IH.cars with that style of Youngstown door.

-Phil

Attachments:

 


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Tim O'Connor
 

Thanks Doug ! My image file name is now

cnj_22457 40ft_SD_box XM-3 built-1947 exCRP_series-22001-22480 M&StL_ LimeCreekBridge MasonCityIA 1961.SophMarty.jpg

which encapsulates everything I now know about the car! Without long file names I could never remember all this stuff. :-)
I was on Soph Marty's mailing list for a few years. He mailed some fabulous jaw dropping photographs. One of so many
excellent people who have left us.


On 7/16/2022 2:08 PM, Douglas Harding wrote:

Photo taken on the MSTL (Lime Creek bridge) just south of the depot, in Mason City IA, 1961 by Soph Marty.

 

Doug Harding

https://www.facebook.com/douglas.harding.3156/

Youtube: Douglas Harding Iowa Central Railroad

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Tim O'Connor
Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2022 4:55 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] 7' wide 10' IH Youngstown door for CRP XM-4

 


Here's one in 1961 (!) on the M&StL I think.

On 7/14/2022 3:54 PM, nyc3001 . wrote:

Thanks guys. This is a 5-6-5 door as in the below photo.

Tim, I'm not sure about 10'6 IH, but after looking a bit, afaik the CNJ cars might be the only prototype 10' IH.cars with that style of Youngstown door.

-Phil

Attachments:



--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts