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Pacific Electric

Tim O'Connor
 


Unfortunately, I think it's more complicated for photographs - There are "photographer's lifetime" provisions in there.


On 2/9/2021 2:52 AM, Dave Nelson wrote:

Everything created on or before Dec 31, 1925 is in the public domain.

FWIW, Public Domain Day (the name is my idea) occurs on Jan 1 of every year and I’m pretty sure that all items copyright registered 95 (longest protection) +1 years ago all move to the public domain.  This being 2021 then  2021-95 = 1926 – 1 year = everything in 1925.

 

Dave Nelson



--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts
Tony Thompson
 

Dave Nelson wrote:

Everything created on or before Dec 31, 1925 is in the public domain.

No. Everything COPYRIGHTED before that dat is in the public domain. I already explained the difference. Read what I wrote.

Tony Thompson
Dave Nelson
 

Everything created on or before Dec 31, 1925 is in the public domain.

FWIW, Public Domain Day (the name is my idea) occurs on Jan 1 of every year and I’m pretty sure that all items copyright registered 95 (longest protection) +1 years ago all move to the public domain.  This being 2021 then  2021-95 = 1926 – 1 year = everything in 1925.

 

Dave Nelson

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Tim O'Connor
Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2021 2:19 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Pacific Electric

 


All copyrights expire eventually. Including photographs. There are a lot of factors - how old was the
photographer and (if) when did they die? Was the photo ever published? Where did you get the photo?
A nearly 80 year old photo of a freight car... not much chance of a lawsuit. Just sayin'. And to win, the
suit would have to demonstrate actual damage to the copyright holder (diminishment of residual economic
value of the photo or publication).


On 2/3/2021 6:54 PM, SHAY STARK wrote:

Garth,

I have a photo of PE10237 taken in Centerville Utah on Bamberger Railroad with a packing date of 11-41 and BLT 6-24 B-50-14, that has the brake staff rigging located on the outside of the car. Unfortunately I don't have permission to post the photo. I also remember an article in Main Line Modeler in the 1990's that had a few photos of the PE cars along with the SP variants. I seem to remember at least one photo showing the brake staff rigging. Maybe someone has that article and could provide more information.

Shay Stark


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Thanks for the images that should settle this debate, interesting as it has been.

 

Schuyler

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of radiodial868
Sent: Friday, February 05, 2021 10:57 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Pacific Electric

 

Here's some present day photo's of the linkage from a -14 at OERM with AB brakes. The original K Brakes were attached in the same location as the present brake cylinder.
--
-------------------
RJ Dial
Mendocino, CA

Tim O'Connor
 

Garth

Yeah I get that but I am more interested in the wide dissemination and understanding of  information
concerning 20th century railroads -- As I have gotten older (as we all have) I've become keenly aware
of the fact that ALL of this is just a "blip" in history - just over 100 years of steam locomotives etc - I
know of very large collections of wonderful photographs - just amazing stuff - that has passed from
collectors (who passed away) to wealthy buyers, and very likely never to be widely seen again. We
pass this way very quickly and it seems like widespread sharing of images will ensure that copies will
still be out there in the "cloud" in 20 or 40 or 80 years.

But I don't re-post images that have not appeared on publicly accessible web sites and I always try to
discover the photographer's name or at least the source where I found it. Since web sites are themselves
rather ephemeral - or over time make inaccessible what was once accessible - it does no good in general
to "bookmark" links to those online sources. Some of the sources are what I would call "archival" like
museum collections and that's fine - But there are millions of other photos out there that come and go
and are not part of any formal archive.

But I respect pictures with restricted the rights (prints or slides) and I don't post those - but many of those
have been posted to public web sites! As we all know. ;-)


On 2/4/2021 6:50 PM, Garth Groff and Sally Sanford wrote:

Tim,

While I generally agree, I don't post photos from my collection if they have a collector's or photographer's name on the back. Even if the photographer has passed away, somebody, or some museum, might have the negative and claim reproduction rights. While I don't expect a lawsuit, it is a matter of respect. The big exception is the Sacramento Northern negatives I purchased from Will Whittaker. Will specifically assigned the reproduction rights in writing to me. I also own a large clutch of Ken Jenkins' Sacramento Northern negatives. I bought these from another collector, and consider that the reproduction came with the negatives. Same for uncredited negatives and prints I bought on eBay or from other sources, with the exception of one photographer who restricted reproduction rights beyond my personal collection as a condition of the sale.

Like I said, it is a matter of respect.

Yours Aye,

Garth Groff  🦆


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts
Bob Chaparro
 

Where to inspect the car in R.J. Dial's photos:

The Southern California Railway Museum

(Formerly the Orange Empire Railway Museum)

2201 S. “A” Street, Perris, CA

Map: https://tinyurl.com/y2wzlwj8 (Scroll on map to enlarge or reduce.)

Website: https://socalrailway.org/

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA
Paul Doggett
 

Some good shots there RJ.

Paul Doggett


On 5 Feb 2021, at 15:56, radiodial868 <radiodial57@...> wrote:

Here's some present day photo's of the linkage from a -14 at OERM with AB brakes. The original K Brakes were attached in the same location as the present brake cylinder.
--
-------------------
RJ Dial
Mendocino, CA

Attachments:
radiodial868
 

Here's some present day photo's of the linkage from a -14 at OERM with AB brakes. The original K Brakes were attached in the same location as the present brake cylinder.
--
-------------------
RJ Dial
Mendocino, CA
radiodial868
 

Here's the Sunshine Flyer for the PE B-50-14 boxcars and photos of the finished model with the outer sill mounted hand brake linkage.  The instructions in the kit included info on how to model it. I took a peak a couple years back of the one in my stash when doing the flatcars.
Man, to be able purchase those noted kits today!
--
-------------------
RJ Dial
Mendocino, CA

PDF
sunshine17PEFlyer.pdf

Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...>
 

On Mon, Jan 25, 2021 at 03:05 AM, Paul Doggett wrote:
The Pacific Electrics own cars had an unusual hand brake arrangement because of the tight curves
The same problem existed on the Colorado narrow gauge, where a normal hand brake rod would run just behind the backs of the wheels, and the solution was the same, chain and rollers to route it out around the truck. Grandt Line had parts for the chain rollers and brackets in some of their NG condola detail kits, IIRC, and these parts might be useful to model the PE cars.

Dennis Storzek
brianleppert@att.net
 

The right hand truck was not like a PRR 2D-F8 (PRR truck classes did have dashes).  SP rebuilt this truck by replacing the original Bettendorf T-section side frames with  steel U-section side frames, cast by American Steel Foundries.  See attached photo of one of these trucks under a SP flat car at the Nevada State RR Museum.

SP rebuilt a lot of their Bettendorf T-Section trucks in the 1940s by replacing just the side frames.  Finished trucks could have either Simplex-like built-up truck bolsters, like this example, or one-piece cast steel bolsters.  In HO scale, Tahoe Model Works offers this truck with cast steel bolsters as TMW-109/209 Barber Lateral Motion 50-ton Trucks.

Brian Leppert
Tahoe Model Works
Carson City, NV
Garth Groff and Sally Sanford <mallardlodge1000@...>
 

Tim,

While I generally agree, I don't post photos from my collection if they have a collector's or photographer's name on the back. Even if the photographer has passed away, somebody, or some museum, might have the negative and claim reproduction rights. While I don't expect a lawsuit, it is a matter of respect. The big exception is the Sacramento Northern negatives I purchased from Will Whittaker. Will specifically assigned the reproduction rights in writing to me. I also own a large clutch of Ken Jenkins' Sacramento Northern negatives. I bought these from another collector, and consider that the reproduction came with the negatives. Same for uncredited negatives and prints I bought on eBay or from other sources, with the exception of one photographer who restricted reproduction rights beyond my personal collection as a condition of the sale.

Like I said, it is a matter of respect.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🦆

On Thu, Feb 4, 2021 at 5:19 PM Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:

All copyrights expire eventually. Including photographs. There are a lot of factors - how old was the
photographer and (if) when did they die? Was the photo ever published? Where did you get the photo?
A nearly 80 year old photo of a freight car... not much chance of a lawsuit. Just sayin'. And to win, the
suit would have to demonstrate actual damage to the copyright holder (diminishment of residual economic
value of the photo or publication).


On 2/3/2021 6:54 PM, SHAY STARK wrote:
Garth,

I have a photo of PE10237 taken in Centerville Utah on Bamberger Railroad with a packing date of 11-41 and BLT 6-24 B-50-14, that has the brake staff rigging located on the outside of the car. Unfortunately I don't have permission to post the photo. I also remember an article in Main Line Modeler in the 1990's that had a few photos of the PE cars along with the SP variants. I seem to remember at least one photo showing the brake staff rigging. Maybe someone has that article and could provide more information.

Shay Stark

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

Garth Groff and Sally Sanford <mallardlodge1000@...>
 

Mel,

I hadn't noticed the mismatch trucks, or I had forgotten. The left is clearly a T-section "Bettendorf", while the right appears to be similar to a PRR 2DF8. Such trucks were included in some of the Red Caboose PFE refrigerators, and I believe they were also common on other SP equipment.

Remember that this car moved over to MW service around 1951-1952 and served another 13-14 or so years. Since it was no longer in revenue service, replacing one truck with another type that was at hand would not be unrealistic.

When I posted these photos, I said they were mine. Actually, they are my father's and date to around 1966. He shot color slides, and I shot black-and-white on that visit to the OREM. My photos weren't all that hot. Although I shot this boxcar, I mostly concentrated on the freight motors.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff    🦆

On Thu, Feb 4, 2021 at 3:52 PM mel perry <clipper841@...> wrote:
interesting, that car has two different
trucks, is it on a scrap line?
mel perry
Tony Thompson
 

There are a number of extant photos of tank cars with two different trucks.

Tony Thompson
Tony Thompson
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:

All copyrights expire eventually. Including photographs. There are a lot of factors - how old was the
photographer and (if) when did they die? Was the photo ever published? Where did you get the photo?

Couple misconceptions here. Anyone with ACTUAL inherited or purchased rights can copyright a photo TODAY, if not already so protected. The classic example in copyright sources is if you inherit an unpublished diary of George Washington, in other words, it's really yours by right. You can copyright and publish it today.

. . . the suit would have to demonstrate actual damage to the copyright holder (diminishment of residual economic value of the photo or publication).

   Not entirely true; there can be statutory damages. And remember, Tim, a copyright or copyrightable material is property. Stealing it is like stealing any property. Your choice, of course.

Just saying'.

Tony Thompson
Tony Thompson
 

Garth Groff wrote:

Interesting question. Tony would be the one to comment on that. Most of the surviving PE cars were transferred to the SP circa 1951-1952, and any that were worthy of continued service would have needed AB brakes. 

I never saw in any SP records any indication of the PE car "special" brake gear. The only really comprehensive source on PE freight cars for me was the Volume III of the Ira Swett-edited "Cars of the Pacific Electric" series (Interurbans 37). The book does contain a number of PE equipment diagrams, but none give brake data beyond size and make of cylinder, and type of valve.

Tony Thompson
David Ball
 

Hi Guys

 

Sorry for being a bit late to the party here

 

Like for others, everyone pic I have or can remember seeing where a PE B-40-14 is the explicit subject is of the wrong side, or is the wrong angle to show the correct side of the end in enough detail.

 

So I have been going through my other material seeing if I could find a photo where something else was the intended subject but also captured the correct side of the PE B-40-14.

 

And in the end I didn’t need to look to far (and somehow missed this when I was looking more specific for B-50-14’s). On pg 783 of Car of the Pacific Electric Vol 3 (the revised later edition which includes the section on freight cars) there is a pic that is nominally of a G-50-9 . But coupled behind it is PE B-40-14 10224. I have attached a close up (which is a bit fuzzy) bit it shows the outside brake rigging.

 

Cheers

 

David Ball

Wellington, NZ

(and modelling the road in question)
Tim O'Connor
 


All copyrights expire eventually. Including photographs. There are a lot of factors - how old was the
photographer and (if) when did they die? Was the photo ever published? Where did you get the photo?
A nearly 80 year old photo of a freight car... not much chance of a lawsuit. Just sayin'. And to win, the
suit would have to demonstrate actual damage to the copyright holder (diminishment of residual economic
value of the photo or publication).


On 2/3/2021 6:54 PM, SHAY STARK wrote:

Garth,

I have a photo of PE10237 taken in Centerville Utah on Bamberger Railroad with a packing date of 11-41 and BLT 6-24 B-50-14, that has the brake staff rigging located on the outside of the car. Unfortunately I don't have permission to post the photo. I also remember an article in Main Line Modeler in the 1990's that had a few photos of the PE cars along with the SP variants. I seem to remember at least one photo showing the brake staff rigging. Maybe someone has that article and could provide more information.

Shay Stark

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts
mel perry
 

bruce;
1) simple, i've never seen it in service,
only on dead lines, not to say it didn't
happen, i just haven't seen it

2)PE8501?, i'm teferencing PE00119,
which clearly a t-section on the left
and a bettendorf on the right
;-)
mel perry


On Thu, Feb 4, 2021, 1:04 PM Bruce Smith <smithbf@...> wrote:
Mel,

1) Why would two different trucks imply a scrap line? While not common, it occurred.

2) Um, the trucks on PE 8501 sure both look like Andrews trucks to me.

Regards

Bruce


Bruce F. Smith            

Auburn, AL

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."




On Feb 4, 2021, at 2:51 PM, mel perry <clipper841@...> wrote:

interesting, that car has two different
trucks, is it on a scrap line?
mel perry
Bruce Smith
 

Mel,

1) Why would two different trucks imply a scrap line? While not common, it occurred.

2) Um, the trucks on PE 8501 sure both look like Andrews trucks to me.

Regards

Bruce


Bruce F. Smith            

Auburn, AL

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."




On Feb 4, 2021, at 2:51 PM, mel perry <clipper841@...> wrote:

interesting, that car has two different
trucks, is it on a scrap line?
mel perry
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