Fw: Milwaukee road flood photo


Ted Schnepf
 

Hello Everyone,

I need some expert advice on the car behind the tender of this engine.

First the photo is from the Milwaukee Road calendar for the month of March this year. The photo is at Dubuque, Iowa along the Mississippi, during a normal flood, in April of 1951.

Now look at the car behind the locomotive tender, at the first car. This house car has a fish belly underframe, reefer style plug door, and no reefer hatches on the roof. Reminds me of a NYC milk car?

But if it is NYC, what is it doing in eastern Iowa?

North of Dubuque is Lansing, where live fish were shipped in baggage cars, for the Kosher trade in New York City, and other spots in the north east.

I will be interested in hearing your responses.

Ted Schnepf
----- Forwarded Message -----

From: ted schnepf <railsunl@...>
To: ted schnepf <railsunl@...>
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2021, 12:48:42 PM CST
Subject: Milwaukee road flood photo






Don Burn
 

The Burlington had fish belly underframe milk cars, see RMJ August 2005 page 15. I can't swear it is one of these cars, but it seems more likely than the NYC or Rutland.

Don Burn

-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Ted Schnepf
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2021 3:22 PM
To: STMFC E-List <main@realstmfc.groups.io>
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Fw: Milwaukee road flood photo

Hello Everyone,

I need some expert advice on the car behind the tender of this engine.

First the photo is from the Milwaukee Road calendar for the month of March this year. The photo is at Dubuque, Iowa along the Mississippi, during a normal flood, in April of 1951.

Now look at the car behind the locomotive tender, at the first car. This house car has a fish belly underframe, reefer style plug door, and no reefer hatches on the roof. Reminds me of a NYC milk car?

But if it is NYC, what is it doing in eastern Iowa?

North of Dubuque is Lansing, where live fish were shipped in baggage cars, for the Kosher trade in New York City, and other spots in the north east.

I will be interested in hearing your responses.

Ted Schnepf

----- Forwarded Message -----
From: ted schnepf <railsunl@...>
To: ted schnepf <railsunl@...>
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2021, 12:48:42 PM CST
Subject: Milwaukee road flood photo






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Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...>
 

And as the rail milk traffic went to trucks, not unheard of to use milk cars in express traffic, which could take them off line.

Dennis Storzek


poweredby251
 

Western Refrigerator Line (WRX reporting marks) out of Green Bay WI had a series of insulated boxcars, wood with reefer style doors.  Almost all were painted white as in the flood picture, and most were lettered for GBW or International Milling.  Not sure if any had that rounded roofline though.....

John Gadow


Jack Mullen
 

The mystery car matches NYC milk cars well: canvas covered roof, absence of roofwalk, single vertical grab iron at end of side, no side ladder, rounded corner post, flush doors. In milk service there were several round vents on the roof centerline, but these could have been removed later. These milk cars did show up in express service in the 50s as milk business declined.  I recall seeing a photo of one on the Santa Fe in a westbound train behind a 4-8-4. 
Jack Mullen


poweredby251
 

One example of the WRX cars.

John Gadow


Charlie Vlk
 

Ted and All-

I don’t think it is a Q “Cream” car….just doesn’t have that presence.  Besides, the picture is taken after the Milwaukee Road adopted the Elgin Watch Company designed numerals that are displayed in the headlight numberboard which, I believe, were a late 1930s change.   By that time the Q cars were in MOW service.   The ones with fishbelly underframes has a letterboard fascia and dual baggage doors, not plug reefer doors.   The roof was a very flat turtleback, not round.

And they were longer than the 36-40 Ft as the car in the photo appears to be.

Charlie Vlk

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jack Mullen
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2021 4:24 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Fw: Milwaukee road flood photo

 

The mystery car matches NYC milk cars well: canvas covered roof, absence of roofwalk, single vertical grab iron at end of side, no side ladder, rounded corner post, flush doors. In milk service there were several round vents on the roof centerline, but these could have been removed later. These milk cars did show up in express service in the 50s as milk business declined.  I recall seeing a photo of one on the Santa Fe in a westbound train behind a 4-8-4. 
Jack Mullen


Tim O'Connor
 


Wood sheathed ice reefers (RS) were rebuilt as RB's. In 1959 there were just 15 RB cars in the 9700 series.
I have not seen any photos of those cars. I wonder if the Branchline (or Westerfield) ACF reefers could be used
to properly model these.

Tim O'Connor


On 3/10/2021 5:23 PM, poweredby251 via groups.io wrote:
Western Refrigerator Line (WRX reporting marks) out of Green Bay WI had a series of insulated boxcars, wood with reefer style doors.  Almost all were painted white as in the flood picture, and most were lettered for GBW or International Milling.  Not sure if any had that rounded roofline though.....

John Gadow

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Andy Laurent
 

Attached are 6 photos of WRX RB cars in the 9600 and 9700-series, including a few in International Milling paint.  It appears that the rebuilt RB cars started in the 9500-series and went up into the the 9800s (your photo of 9807 shows a rebuilt RBL).

Andy L.
Madison, WI


Andy Laurent
 

...as I look closer at these cars, some received steel sheet ends (perhaps the RBL cars).

Andy L.
Madison, WI


Mark Mathu
 

I've assembled some data on the WRX RBs and RBLs from Official Railway Equipment Registers (manly from getting copies of WRX listings from the NMRA library in Chattanooga).  Here are all the WRX RB/RBL car series I am aware of.  The list is sorted by car type (RB or RBL), then by the year that listing first appeared in the ORER, and finally by the car series number. 
 
The "ORER description" is the car description from the ORER; the "ORER notes" are additional notes on the car in the ORERs, and "other comments" are pieces of information I gathered over the years.  Presumably the cars listed as "Stl. Und." were wood sheathed cars, likely rebuilt from the older WRX RS refrigerators.
 
My understanding is that the reassigned ice bunker refrigerator cars worked well for shipping flour with the roof hatches acting as air vents. Flour is warm when it is first ground and is subject to condensation as it cools; insulated cars with air vents could control this during shipping by allowing air to flow through the car, keeping the sacks of flour dry and preventing caking.
 
~ ~ ~
 
RB - WRX 9700 to 9714
ORER description: Refrig., Stl. Und.
ORER notes: Cars in series 9700, 9701, and 9703 to 9714 have 4 1/2 in. insulation and are equipped with tri-belts.
ORER years: 1960.01 - 1962.10
 
RB - WRX 9650 to 9699
ORER description: Refrig., Stl. Und.
ORER notes: Cars in series 9650 to 9699 and 9988 to 9999 are equipped with ventilators A and B ends.
ORER years: 1962.10 - 1975.04
Other comments: WRX 9660 lettered for International Milling.  WRX 9676 taken out of service ca. 1975 and used as a lineside structure at the Kewaunee carferry yard.
 
RB - WRX 9900 to 9950
ORER description: Refrig., Stl. Und.
ORER years: 1962.10 - 1970.01
 
RB - WRX 9988 to 9999
ORER description: Refrig., Stl. Und.
ORER notes: Cars in series 9650 to 9699 and 9988 to 9999 are equipped with ventilators A and B ends.
ORER years: 1962.10 - 1966.04
 
RB - WRX 9550 to 9574
ORER description: 
ORER years: 1964.04 - 1975.04
Other comments: 9550-9574 cars were rebuilt without ice bunkers in later years
 
RB - WRX 9649 
ORER description: Refrig., All Stl.
ORER notes: Cars in series 964950 to 9699 are equipped with ventilators A and B ends.
ORER years: 1967.07 - 1976.01
 
RB - WRX 9400 to 9452
ORER description: Refrig., All Stl.
ORER years: 1969.04 - 1983.01
Other comments: A few cars renumbered 9200-9218 in 1975+.  9201, 9211, 9213 (perhaps others) lettered for FRESHLIKE with routing instructions WHEN EMPTY RETURN TO AGENT CNW RR THE LARSEN CO GREEN BAY WIS
 
RB - WRX 9620 to 9646
ORER description: Refrig., All Stl.
ORER notes: Cars numbered 9620 to 9649 are equipped with corrugated board dunnage, pallets, platforms or skids, which will be considered part of the equipment of the car.
ORER years: 1969.04 - 1983.01
Other comments: #9620, 9621, 9642, 9653 lettered for International Milling, perhaps others.
 
RB - WRX 9000 to 9001
ORER description: Refrig., All Stl.
ORER years: 1970.01 - 1971.04
 
RB - WRX 9002 to 9006
ORER description: Refrig., All Stl.
ORER years: 1970.01 - 1984.04
 
RB - WRX 8000 to 8285
ORER description: Refrig., All Stl.
ORER years: 1971.04 - 1971.04
 
RB - WRX 9000 to 9014
ORER description: Refrig., Stl., Roof Loading Hatches (Dry Blood Only)
ORER years: 1973.04 - 1984.04
Other comments: USRA double-sheathed boxcars built DT&I 11500-11799 in 1919 and rebuilt 1936 with 8-panel steel sides and an odd 16-panel radial roof.  Rebuilt again with 8' plug doors and insulation circa 1957-58.  They lasted on the DT&I until the late 1960s, then sold to WRX and LOVX. Assigned to Armour & Company dry blood service.
 
RB - WRX 9015 
ORER description: Refrig., Stl., Ventilators A & B Ends
ORER years: 1977.01 - 1984.04
 
RB - WRX 9701 to 9717
ORER description: Refrig., Stl.
ORER years: 1984.04 - 1990.01
Other comments: Former Youngstown and Southern Ry YS 60626-60641, 60643, acquired 1980.
 
RBL - WRX 9702 
ORER description: Refrig., All Stl.
ORER notes: Car numbered 9702 has 6 in. insulation and is equipped with Evans Loading Device.
ORER years: 1962.10 - 1962.1
 
RBL - WRX 9776 to 9799
ORER description: Refrig., Stl. Und.
ORER notes: Cars numbered 9775, 9776 to 9799 and 9800 to 9850 are equipped with loading bulkheads.
ORER years: 1962.10 - 1975.04
 
RBL - WRX 9800 to 9850
ORER description: Refrig., Stl. Und.
ORER notes: Cars numbered 9775, 9776 to 9799 and 9800 to 9850 are equipped with loading bulkheads.
ORER years: 1962.10 - 1970.01
 
RBL - WRX 9300 to 9303
ORER description: Refrig., All Stl.
ORER notes: Cars in series 9300 to 9303 have 4 inches side and end insulation, 5 inches floor and ceiling insulation and are equipped with loading bulkheads.
ORER years: 1964.04 - 1981.01
Other comments: Reassigned to GBW (1/72)
 
RBL - WRX 9775 
ORER description: Refrig., Stl. Und.
ORER notes: Cars numbered 9775, 9776 to 9799 and 9800 to 9850 are equipped with loading bulkheads.
ORER years: 1967.07 - 1971.04
 
RBL - WRX 9350 , 9351
ORER description: Refrig., All Stl.
ORER years: 1969.04 - 1971.04
Other comments: To GBW 22090-22091 in 1972.
 
RBL - WRX 9773 to 9774
ORER description: Refrig., Stl. Und.
ORER notes: Cars numbered 9773 to 9799 are equipped with loading bulkheads.
ORER years: 1971.04 - 1972.04
 
~ ~ ~
 
Mark Mathu
Whitefish Bay, Wis.


Stephen Dolezal
 

I believe, and it would take much digging in my files to find it, that NYC had some express cars converted from milk cars.  Probably older cars made surplus after more modern steel milk cars came into regular use.  Hence the lack of ice hatches. 

If memory is correct, there may have been an ALCO MODELS brass car and perhaps a Sunshine resin car like this one.  Anyone have the flyer for the Sunshine NYC express cars?

Steve Dolezal


Tim O'Connor
 


Yes. ALCO imported a brass model - I had one (I may still :-))  and I think
Sunshine 64.3 was the resin model kit for this same car.

Tim O'Connor



On 3/10/2021 5:48 PM, Stephen Dolezal wrote:
I believe, and it would take much digging in my files to find it, that NYC had some express cars converted from milk cars.  Probably older cars made surplus after more modern steel milk cars came into regular use.  Hence the lack of ice hatches. 

If memory is correct, there may have been an ALCO MODELS brass car and perhaps a Sunshine resin car like this one.  Anyone have the flyer for the Sunshine NYC express cars?

Steve Dolezal


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


kevinhlafferty
 

I think you were probably referring to the Sunshine 88.5/88.6 kits.

Kevin Lafferty


Marty McGuirk
 

Based on the side sill, the shape of the ends, the apparent lack of a running board on the car in the original photo I’m almost certain that’s one of the NYC/Rutland express cars. It most certainly isn’t one of the WRX cars. 

Those cars frequently went way out west - I remember Andy Sperandeo being shocked, and somewhat surprised that he was able to include a “milk car” (not in milk service of course!) on his Cajon Pass layout. 

Sadly, Andy never got a chance to build that Sunshine kit - and I ended up with his. 

Marty McGuirk


On Mar 15, 2021, at 9:51 PM, kevinhlafferty <khlafferty@...> wrote:

I think you were probably referring to the Sunshine 88.5/88.6 kits.

Kevin Lafferty <sun88 _NYC wood express reefers _ milk, express cars_.pdf>


Tim O'Connor
 


Yes, the Sunshine 88.x series, you are correct.

Jim Hayes web site is preserved for all of us in the Wayback Machine. :-)

https://web.archive.org/web/20190126192539/http://sunshinekits.com/sunimages/sun88.pdf
https://web.archive.org/web/20190126195000/http://sunshinekits.com/sunimages/sunalltimepart3.pdf

Tim O'Connor


On 3/15/2021 9:51 PM, kevinhlafferty wrote:

  I think you were probably referring to the Sunshine 88.5/88.6 kits. 
 
Kevin Lafferty   sun88 _NYC wood express reefers _ milk, express cars_.pdf


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Mark Rossiter
 

Tim, yes – Alco Models imported NYC milk cars like the one you pictured, albeit with roof and floor level vents.  The NEB&W via F&C offered a cast resin version way back when that was extremely top heavy and required after-market details to make a nice model.  Railworks offered vastly improved models in brass including Rutland and NYC versions with and without roof and floor vents, and NJI international imported similar cars with hinged or sliding doors representing NYC cars converted to express service. 

 

Mark Rossiter