GN Boxcar


Garth Groff and Sally Sanford <mallardlodge1000@...>
 

Friends,

While scanning my prints I came upon this interesting photo of a GN boxcar. I found the faded original in a file when I was assigned to the Coast Guard District 11 headquarters in Long Beach. I presume that these are Coast Guardsmen, the photo is from the Los Angeles harbor area, and was taken during WWII.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🦆


 

And Army MP (Military Police) and two Navy SPs (Shore Police) by the look of it.

 

 

Thanks!
--

Brian Ehni

 

 

From: <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Garth Groff and Sally Sanford <mallardlodge1000@...>
Reply-To: <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Date: Sunday, April 18, 2021 at 6:43 AM
To: realSTMFC <RealSTMFC@groups.io>
Subject: [RealSTMFC] GN Boxcar

 

Friends,

 

While scanning my prints I came upon this interesting photo of a GN boxcar. I found the faded original in a file when I was assigned to the Coast Guard District 11 headquarters in Long Beach. I presume that these are Coast Guardsmen, the photo is from the Los Angeles harbor area, and was taken during WWII.

 

Yours Aye,

 

 

Garth Groff  🦆


Paul Koehler
 

Brian:

 

Look again, I believe that’s two Coast Guard SP’s and a Coast Guard Officer.

 

Paul; C. Koehler

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of BRIAN PAUL EHNI
Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2021 6:45 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] GN Boxcar

 

And Army MP (Military Police) and two Navy SPs (Shore Police) by the look of it.

 

 

Thanks!
--

Brian Ehni

 

 

From: <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Garth Groff and Sally Sanford <mallardlodge1000@...>
Reply-To: <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Date: Sunday, April 18, 2021 at 6:43 AM
To: realSTMFC <RealSTMFC@groups.io>
Subject: [RealSTMFC] GN Boxcar

 

Friends,

 

While scanning my prints I came upon this interesting photo of a GN boxcar. I found the faded original in a file when I was assigned to the Coast Guard District 11 headquarters in Long Beach. I presume that these are Coast Guardsmen, the photo is from the Los Angeles harbor area, and was taken during WWII.

 

Yours Aye,

 

 

Garth Groff  🦆


Ralph W. Brown
 

Hi Brian,
 
At that time, and up until the seventies when the Coast Guard adopted new uniforms, it was very difficult the tell Coast Guard “rag hat” enlisted from Navy “rag hat” enlisted.  Given the source of the photograph and the location, it is much more likely that the Shore Patrolmen are Coast Guard as guarding harbor facilities was a significant part of the Coast Guard’s mission at the time.  It’s interesting to me that the SP (a BM2) facing the camera is wearing a navy (color) tee-shirt while the SP on the left is wearing a white tee-shirt and has his hat pushed back on his head.  Also, neither is wearing a neckerchief.
 
Pax,
 
 
Ralph Brown
Former Navy QM3(SS) and Coast Guard Shore Patrol Officer
Portland, Maine
PRRT&HS No. 3966
NMRA No. L2532

rbrown51[at]maine[dot]rr[dot]com
 

From: BRIAN PAUL EHNI
Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2021 9:44 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] GN Boxcar
 

And Army MP (Military Police) and two Navy SPs (Shore Police) by the look of it.

 

 

Thanks!
--

Brian Ehni

 

 

From: <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Garth Groff and Sally Sanford <mallardlodge1000@...>
Reply-To: <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Date: Sunday, April 18, 2021 at 6:43 AM
To: realSTMFC <RealSTMFC@groups.io>
Subject: [RealSTMFC] GN Boxcar

 

Friends,

 

While scanning my prints I came upon this interesting photo of a GN boxcar. I found the faded original in a file when I was assigned to the Coast Guard District 11 headquarters in Long Beach. I presume that these are Coast Guardsmen, the photo is from the Los Angeles harbor area, and was taken during WWII.

 

Yours Aye,

 

 

Garth Groff  🦆


Ralph W. Brown
 

Hi Paul,
 
Given the “MP” brassard, he is much more likely to be Army than Coast Guard.  If he were a Coast Guard officer, he would have a CG officer’s device on his hat.  Also, if he were Coast Guard, he’d be a Chief Petty Officer, but I still think Army is more likely.
 
Pax,
 
 
Ralph Brown
Portland, Maine
PRRT&HS No. 3966
NMRA No. L2532

rbrown51[at]maine[dot]rr[dot]com
 

From: Paul Koehler
Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2021 12:20 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] GN Boxcar
 

Brian:

 

Look again, I believe that’s two Coast Guard SP’s and a Coast Guard Officer.

 

Paul; C. Koehler

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of BRIAN PAUL EHNI
Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2021 6:45 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] GN Boxcar

 

And Army MP (Military Police) and two Navy SPs (Shore Police) by the look of it.

 

 

Thanks!
--

Brian Ehni

 

 

From: <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Garth Groff and Sally Sanford <mallardlodge1000@...>
Reply-To: <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Date: Sunday, April 18, 2021 at 6:43 AM
To: realSTMFC <RealSTMFC@groups.io>
Subject: [RealSTMFC] GN Boxcar

 

Friends,

 

While scanning my prints I came upon this interesting photo of a GN boxcar. I found the faded original in a file when I was assigned to the Coast Guard District 11 headquarters in Long Beach. I presume that these are Coast Guardsmen, the photo is from the Los Angeles harbor area, and was taken during WWII.

 

Yours Aye,

 

 

Garth Groff  🦆


Benjamin Hom
 

Ralph Brown wrote:
"At that time, and up until the seventies when the Coast Guard adopted new uniforms, it was very difficult the tell Coast Guard “rag hat” enlisted from Navy “rag hat” enlisted.  Given the source of the photograph and the location, it is much more likely that the Shore Patrolmen are Coast Guard as guarding harbor facilities was a significant part of the Coast Guard’s mission at the time.  It’s interesting to me that the SP (a BM2) facing the camera is wearing a navy (color) tee-shirt while the SP on the left is wearing a white tee-shirt and has his hat pushed back on his head.  Also, neither is wearing a neckerchief."

Before Shore Patrol catches up with us, a couple of observations:
- Early in the war, there were dark uniform items issued, including Navy Blue white hats, officer's covers, and undershirts, though photos often show a mix of these and white items among crews.
- While illustrations show Shore Patrolmen fully kitted out including neckerchiefs, wearing neckerchiefs are a poor tactical decision as it gives something for troublemakers to grab onto.


Ben Hom  


Ralph W. Brown
 

Hi Ben,
 
All true, particularly with regard to waterfront security assignments.  Those assigned to places like New York’s Times Square typically word dress uniforms. 
 
Additionally, depending on location and time of year, there were also navy blue flat hats that were still being issued in the ‘60s (I may still have mine around here somewhere), knitted watch caps, and navy blue wool turtleneck sweaters, not to mention pea coats.  Flat hats and navy blue cap covers have long been out of use.  New York, if memory serves, was was probably one of the last places they were worn.
 
Pax,
 
 
Ralph Brown
Portland, Maine
PRRT&HS No. 3966
NMRA No. L2532

rbrown51[at]maine[dot]rr[dot]com
 

From: Benjamin Hom
Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2021 1:31 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] GN Boxcar
 
Ralph Brown wrote:
"At that time, and up until the seventies when the Coast Guard adopted new uniforms, it was very difficult the tell Coast Guard “rag hat” enlisted from Navy “rag hat” enlisted.  Given the source of the photograph and the location, it is much more likely that the Shore Patrolmen are Coast Guard as guarding harbor facilities was a significant part of the Coast Guard’s mission at the time.  It’s interesting to me that the SP (a BM2) facing the camera is wearing a navy (color) tee-shirt while the SP on the left is wearing a white tee-shirt and has his hat pushed back on his head.  Also, neither is wearing a neckerchief."
 
Before Shore Patrol catches up with us, a couple of observations:
- Early in the war, there were dark uniform items issued, including Navy Blue white hats, officer's covers, and undershirts, though photos often show a mix of these and white items among crews.
- While illustrations show Shore Patrolmen fully kitted out including neckerchiefs, wearing neckerchiefs are a poor tactical decision as it gives something for troublemakers to grab onto.
 
 
Ben Hom 


Garth Groff and Sally Sanford <mallardlodge1000@...>
 

Brian and Paul,

Since the photo was found at the bottom of a Coast Guard file cabinet, I tend to agree with Brian. Also consider that the Coast Guard was heavily involved in both port safety and port security during WWII.

Both officers and enlisted men wore the same uniforms as the Navy, except for insignia and sometimes the "Donald Duck" hat for junior enlisteds (but also the Navy "Dixie Cup", you see in the photo). All I can really tell you about the SP facing the camera is that he is a second class, though his specialty is unclear. Chief Petty Officers and officers usually wore Navy khakis.

Now that I have your attention, I will share a story about legendary Coast Guard Captain Higby (later promoted to Admiral upon his retirement). He was, IIRC, head of port security in Long Beach/Los Angeles during WWII. Higby could be a terror. Once he was inspecting a bridge with one of his subordinates who was responsible for that structure. Sitting right on the bridge was a box clearly marked as dynamite. Higby pointed out the box with great indignation, then drew his .45 and put a bullet right through the box. His subordinate officer almost fainted. The box was, of course, empty and had been placed there by Captain Higby just to make a point. 

I knew Admiral Higby slightly. He used to wander around the District Office in Long Beach in his very senior years (like 85 or something). He often used the restroom outside my office to change into swimming trunks and a bathrobe before going down to the shore for a dip. He was quite a character.

Now let's get back to boxcars.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🦆

On Sun, Apr 18, 2021 at 12:20 PM Paul Koehler <koehlers@...> wrote:

Brian:

 

Look again, I believe that’s two Coast Guard SP’s and a Coast Guard Officer.

 

Paul; C. Koehler

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of BRIAN PAUL EHNI
Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2021 6:45 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] GN Boxcar

 

And Army MP (Military Police) and two Navy SPs (Shore Police) by the look of it.

 

 

Thanks!
--

Brian Ehni

 

 

From: <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Garth Groff and Sally Sanford <mallardlodge1000@...>
Reply-To: <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Date: Sunday, April 18, 2021 at 6:43 AM
To: realSTMFC <RealSTMFC@groups.io>
Subject: [RealSTMFC] GN Boxcar

 

Friends,

 

While scanning my prints I came upon this interesting photo of a GN boxcar. I found the faded original in a file when I was assigned to the Coast Guard District 11 headquarters in Long Beach. I presume that these are Coast Guardsmen, the photo is from the Los Angeles harbor area, and was taken during WWII.

 

Yours Aye,

 

 

Garth Groff  🦆


John Barry
 

Garth,

I have to agree with you and Brian on the fellow in khakis.  The MP armband is a dead giveaway.  Joint Army-Navy or Army-CG patrols were often used in WWII.  It helped defuse things when busting up brawls as the joint groups weren't seen as taking sides the way a strictly SP or MP detail could be by brawlers from the opposite service.  There's also documentation that joint teams were used on passenger trains during the war.  

John Barry
 
ATSF North Bay Lines 
Golden Gates & Fast Freights 
Lovettsville, VA


707-490-9696 






On Sunday, April 18, 2021, 04:45:59 PM EDT, Garth Groff and Sally Sanford <mallardlodge1000@...> wrote:


Brian and Paul,

Since the photo was found at the bottom of a Coast Guard file cabinet, I tend to agree with Brian. Also consider that the Coast Guard was heavily involved in both port safety and port security during WWII.

Both officers and enlisted men wore the same uniforms as the Navy, except for insignia and sometimes the "Donald Duck" hat for junior enlisteds (but also the Navy "Dixie Cup", you see in the photo). All I can really tell you about the SP facing the camera is that he is a second class, though his specialty is unclear. Chief Petty Officers and officers usually wore Navy khakis.

Now that I have your attention, I will share a story about legendary Coast Guard Captain Higby (later promoted to Admiral upon his retirement). He was, IIRC, head of port security in Long Beach/Los Angeles during WWII. Higby could be a terror. Once he was inspecting a bridge with one of his subordinates who was responsible for that structure. Sitting right on the bridge was a box clearly marked as dynamite. Higby pointed out the box with great indignation, then drew his .45 and put a bullet right through the box. His subordinate officer almost fainted. The box was, of course, empty and had been placed there by Captain Higby just to make a point. 

I knew Admiral Higby slightly. He used to wander around the District Office in Long Beach in his very senior years (like 85 or something). He often used the restroom outside my office to change into swimming trunks and a bathrobe before going down to the shore for a dip. He was quite a character.

Now let's get back to boxcars.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🦆

On Sun, Apr 18, 2021 at 12:20 PM Paul Koehler <koehlers@...> wrote:

Brian:

 

Look again, I believe that’s two Coast Guard SP’s and a Coast Guard Officer.

 

Paul; C. Koehler

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of BRIAN PAUL EHNI
Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2021 6:45 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] GN Boxcar

 

And Army MP (Military Police) and two Navy SPs (Shore Police) by the look of it.

 

 

Thanks!
--

Brian Ehni

 

 

From: <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Garth Groff and Sally Sanford <mallardlodge1000@...>
Reply-To: <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Date: Sunday, April 18, 2021 at 6:43 AM
To: realSTMFC <RealSTMFC@groups.io>
Subject: [RealSTMFC] GN Boxcar

 

Friends,

 

While scanning my prints I came upon this interesting photo of a GN boxcar. I found the faded original in a file when I was assigned to the Coast Guard District 11 headquarters in Long Beach. I presume that these are Coast Guardsmen, the photo is from the Los Angeles harbor area, and was taken during WWII.

 

Yours Aye,

 

 

Garth Groff  🦆


Philip Dove
 

I don't know about the Uniforms, but do the pallets or skids by the car date things. I thought pallets came with fork lift trucks and Iso containers after the second World War? 

Sent from my Huawei phone


-------- Original message --------
From: John Barry <northbaylines@...>
Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2021, 22:28
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] GN Boxcar
Garth,

I have to agree with you and Brian on the fellow in khakis.  The MP armband is a dead giveaway.  Joint Army-Navy or Army-CG patrols were often used in WWII.  It helped defuse things when busting up brawls as the joint groups weren't seen as taking sides the way a strictly SP or MP detail could be by brawlers from the opposite service.  There's also documentation that joint teams were used on passenger trains during the war.  

John Barry
 
ATSF North Bay Lines 
Golden Gates & Fast Freights 
Lovettsville, VA


707-490-9696 






On Sunday, April 18, 2021, 04:45:59 PM EDT, Garth Groff and Sally Sanford <mallardlodge1000@...> wrote:


Brian and Paul,

Since the photo was found at the bottom of a Coast Guard file cabinet, I tend to agree with Brian. Also consider that the Coast Guard was heavily involved in both port safety and port security during WWII.

Both officers and enlisted men wore the same uniforms as the Navy, except for insignia and sometimes the "Donald Duck" hat for junior enlisteds (but also the Navy "Dixie Cup", you see in the photo). All I can really tell you about the SP facing the camera is that he is a second class, though his specialty is unclear. Chief Petty Officers and officers usually wore Navy khakis.

Now that I have your attention, I will share a story about legendary Coast Guard Captain Higby (later promoted to Admiral upon his retirement). He was, IIRC, head of port security in Long Beach/Los Angeles during WWII. Higby could be a terror. Once he was inspecting a bridge with one of his subordinates who was responsible for that structure. Sitting right on the bridge was a box clearly marked as dynamite. Higby pointed out the box with great indignation, then drew his .45 and put a bullet right through the box. His subordinate officer almost fainted. The box was, of course, empty and had been placed there by Captain Higby just to make a point. 

I knew Admiral Higby slightly. He used to wander around the District Office in Long Beach in his very senior years (like 85 or something). He often used the restroom outside my office to change into swimming trunks and a bathrobe before going down to the shore for a dip. He was quite a character.

Now let's get back to boxcars.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🦆

On Sun, Apr 18, 2021 at 12:20 PM Paul Koehler <koehlers@...> wrote:

Brian:

 

Look again, I believe that’s two Coast Guard SP’s and a Coast Guard Officer.

 

Paul; C. Koehler

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of BRIAN PAUL EHNI
Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2021 6:45 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] GN Boxcar

 

And Army MP (Military Police) and two Navy SPs (Shore Police) by the look of it.

 

 

Thanks!
--

Brian Ehni

 

 

From: <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Garth Groff and Sally Sanford <mallardlodge1000@...>
Reply-To: <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Date: Sunday, April 18, 2021 at 6:43 AM
To: realSTMFC <RealSTMFC@groups.io>
Subject: [RealSTMFC] GN Boxcar

 

Friends,

 

While scanning my prints I came upon this interesting photo of a GN boxcar. I found the faded original in a file when I was assigned to the Coast Guard District 11 headquarters in Long Beach. I presume that these are Coast Guardsmen, the photo is from the Los Angeles harbor area, and was taken during WWII.

 

Yours Aye,

 

 

Garth Groff  🦆


Bruce Smith
 

Phillip,

You're a few decades too late. The pallet as we know it, along with the fork-lift, were invented in the 1920s. By 1925, the pallet included bottom planks.
Palletized material was part of the Allied logistics stragegy in WWII.

Regards,
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Philip Dove <philipdove22@...>
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2021 10:20 AM
To: John Barry <northbaylines@...>; main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: [EXT] Re: [RealSTMFC] GN Boxcar
 
CAUTION: Email Originated Outside of Auburn.
I don't know about the Uniforms, but do the pallets or skids by the car date things. I thought pallets came with fork lift trucks and Iso containers after the second World War? 

Sent from my Huawei phone


-------- Original message --------
From: John Barry <northbaylines@...>
Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2021, 22:28
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] GN Boxcar
Garth,

I have to agree with you and Brian on the fellow in khakis.  The MP armband is a dead giveaway.  Joint Army-Navy or Army-CG patrols were often used in WWII.  It helped defuse things when busting up brawls as the joint groups weren't seen as taking sides the way a strictly SP or MP detail could be by brawlers from the opposite service.  There's also documentation that joint teams were used on passenger trains during the war.  

John Barry
 
ATSF North Bay Lines 
Golden Gates & Fast Freights 
Lovettsville, VA


707-490-9696 






On Sunday, April 18, 2021, 04:45:59 PM EDT, Garth Groff and Sally Sanford <mallardlodge1000@...> wrote:


Brian and Paul,

Since the photo was found at the bottom of a Coast Guard file cabinet, I tend to agree with Brian. Also consider that the Coast Guard was heavily involved in both port safety and port security during WWII.

Both officers and enlisted men wore the same uniforms as the Navy, except for insignia and sometimes the "Donald Duck" hat for junior enlisteds (but also the Navy "Dixie Cup", you see in the photo). All I can really tell you about the SP facing the camera is that he is a second class, though his specialty is unclear. Chief Petty Officers and officers usually wore Navy khakis.

Now that I have your attention, I will share a story about legendary Coast Guard Captain Higby (later promoted to Admiral upon his retirement). He was, IIRC, head of port security in Long Beach/Los Angeles during WWII. Higby could be a terror. Once he was inspecting a bridge with one of his subordinates who was responsible for that structure. Sitting right on the bridge was a box clearly marked as dynamite. Higby pointed out the box with great indignation, then drew his .45 and put a bullet right through the box. His subordinate officer almost fainted. The box was, of course, empty and had been placed there by Captain Higby just to make a point. 

I knew Admiral Higby slightly. He used to wander around the District Office in Long Beach in his very senior years (like 85 or something). He often used the restroom outside my office to change into swimming trunks and a bathrobe before going down to the shore for a dip. He was quite a character.

Now let's get back to boxcars.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🦆

On Sun, Apr 18, 2021 at 12:20 PM Paul Koehler <koehlers@...> wrote:

Brian:

 

Look again, I believe that’s two Coast Guard SP’s and a Coast Guard Officer.

 

Paul; C. Koehler

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of BRIAN PAUL EHNI
Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2021 6:45 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] GN Boxcar

 

And Army MP (Military Police) and two Navy SPs (Shore Police) by the look of it.

 

 

Thanks!
--

Brian Ehni

 

 

From: <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Garth Groff and Sally Sanford <mallardlodge1000@...>
Reply-To: <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Date: Sunday, April 18, 2021 at 6:43 AM
To: realSTMFC <RealSTMFC@groups.io>
Subject: [RealSTMFC] GN Boxcar

 

Friends,

 

While scanning my prints I came upon this interesting photo of a GN boxcar. I found the faded original in a file when I was assigned to the Coast Guard District 11 headquarters in Long Beach. I presume that these are Coast Guardsmen, the photo is from the Los Angeles harbor area, and was taken during WWII.

 

Yours Aye,

 

 

Garth Groff  🦆


Tony Thompson
 

Philip Dove wrote:

I don't know about the Uniforms, but do the pallets or skids by the car date things. I thought pallets came with fork lift trucks and Iso containers after the second World War? 

Bruce Smith is right, pallets and lift trucks considerably pre-date WW II, but it was the experience of so many military folks with that system that hugely expanded its use after the War. 

Tony Thompson