Buffalo Creek boxes to Canada?


Bud Rindfleisch
 

   Asking for a friend from Canada, he wanted to know if the Buffalo Creek boxcars ever went to Canada, loaded with flour I presume? While I formerly once worked for the BCK, I have no clue this many years later if they ever crossed the border. 
    He also asked if NYC plug door insulated boxes bearing NYRB reporting marks (not even sure if they are legit marks?) ever reached destinations in Canada via the NYC?
    Please tolerate my ignorance as these questions would never cross my mind and I have no way to garner the info, just trying to help out a friend.
      Bud Rindfleisch


Paul
 

Hi Bud,

 

There is a Jim Parker picture of one at Niagara Falls NY on the Canada Southern website, pretty close?

http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/non-nyc/images/bck-1861.jpg

Hope it may help,

 

Paul.

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bud Rindfleisch
Sent: Friday, 5 November 2021 11:44 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Buffalo Creek boxes to Canada?

 

   Asking for a friend from Canada, he wanted to know if the Buffalo Creek boxcars ever went to Canada, loaded with flour I presume? While I formerly once worked for the BCK, I have no clue this many years later if they ever crossed the border. 
    He also asked if NYC plug door insulated boxes bearing NYRB reporting marks (not even sure if they are legit marks?) ever reached destinations in Canada via the NYC?
    Please tolerate my ignorance as these questions would never cross my mind and I have no way to garner the info, just trying to help out a friend.
      Bud Rindfleisch


Ed Hawkins
 



On Nov 4, 2021, at 8:14 PM, Bud Rindfleisch <BlackDiamondRR@...> wrote:

Asking for a friend from Canada, he wanted to know if the Buffalo Creek boxcars ever went to Canada, loaded with flour I presume? While I formerly once worked for the BCK, I have no clue this many years later if they ever crossed the border. 

Bud,
While this doesn’t provide any degree to the extent that BCK box cars went to Canada, the Morning Sun book Trackside Ontario on page 105 shows BCK 1094, a PS-1 with new 8-52 stencils. Captions of other photos taken at the same time and showing the same background denote Toronto as the location.  
Regards,
Ed Hawkins


Allan Smith
 

There is a photo of BCK 1322 in the City of Vancouver Archives site.

Al Smith
Sonora CA

On Thursday, November 4, 2021, 07:17:54 PM PDT, Ed Hawkins <hawk0621@...> wrote:




On Nov 4, 2021, at 8:14 PM, Bud Rindfleisch <BlackDiamondRR@...> wrote:

Asking for a friend from Canada, he wanted to know if the Buffalo Creek boxcars ever went to Canada, loaded with flour I presume? While I formerly once worked for the BCK, I have no clue this many years later if they ever crossed the border. 

Bud,
While this doesn’t provide any degree to the extent that BCK box cars went to Canada, the Morning Sun book Trackside Ontario on page 105 shows BCK 1094, a PS-1 with new 8-52 stencils. Captions of other photos taken at the same time and showing the same background denote Toronto as the location.  
Regards,
Ed Hawkins


Bud Rindfleisch
 

My thanks to Paul, Ed, and Allen for their input on the BCK cars in Canada.
     Bud Rindfleisch


Tim O'Connor
 


Folks, check your disks for the 1953 photo of BCK 1322 in Vancouver, British Columbia, from the Vancouver collection. 😁


On 11/4/2021 10:18 PM, Ed Hawkins wrote:

On Nov 4, 2021, at 8:14 PM, Bud Rindfleisch <BlackDiamondRR@...> wrote:

Asking for a friend from Canada, he wanted to know if the Buffalo Creek boxcars ever went to Canada, loaded with flour I presume? While I formerly once worked for the BCK, I have no clue this many years later if they ever crossed the border. 

Bud,
While this doesn’t provide any degree to the extent that BCK box cars went to Canada, the Morning Sun book Trackside Ontario on page 105 shows BCK 1094, a PS-1 with new 8-52 stencils. Captions of other photos taken at the same time and showing the same background denote Toronto as the location.  
Regards,
Ed Hawkins
_._,_._,_


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Gavin
 

It might not be in Vancouver. Frost never labeled where his photos were taken, and did travel to NY (see the other tab for NYC steam), so it is very likely it is in NY.


On Fri, Nov 5, 2021 at 10:03 AM Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:

Folks, check your disks for the 1953 photo of BCK 1322 in Vancouver, British Columbia, from the Vancouver collection. 😁


On 11/4/2021 10:18 PM, Ed Hawkins wrote:

On Nov 4, 2021, at 8:14 PM, Bud Rindfleisch <BlackDiamondRR@...> wrote:

Asking for a friend from Canada, he wanted to know if the Buffalo Creek boxcars ever went to Canada, loaded with flour I presume? While I formerly once worked for the BCK, I have no clue this many years later if they ever crossed the border. 

Bud,
While this doesn’t provide any degree to the extent that BCK box cars went to Canada, the Morning Sun book Trackside Ontario on page 105 shows BCK 1094, a PS-1 with new 8-52 stencils. Captions of other photos taken at the same time and showing the same background denote Toronto as the location.  
Regards,
Ed Hawkins


Doug Polinder
 

Yes but the dates of both BCK photographs in the City of Vancouver Archives are January 1953 and there is no snow on the ground, unlikely in Buffalo but very possible in Vancouver.  If Buffalo, then the dates are possibly incorrect or Buffalo was having a dry winter.

Doug Polinder
Seguin TX


Jim Mischke
 


Bud and friend:


The Buffalo mills produced a variety of proprietary flours, mixes and feeds.   For a western Canadian customer, a Buffalo Creek boxcar will do.

Insulated boxcars protect ladings from temperature extremes.   Many are cold but few are frozen.   Jars and canned goods cannot be allowed to freeze, so that might be a lading for an insulated boxcar..  If western Canadian grocers want Mott's apple sauce from New York, an NYRB boxcar will do.

Canada has always been largely self-sufficient with pre-NAFTA tariff barriers to maintain it that way.  Yet there are many occasions when only an American product will suffice and distinctive US railroad cars make their way north.





Drew Bunn
 

On Tue., Nov. 9, 2021, 22:56 Jim Mischke, <jmischke@...> wrote:

"Yet there are many occasions when only an American product will suffice and distinctive US railroad cars make their way north."

     Don't forget the Canada Southern that was owned by NYC/Michigan Central. Any number of cars from the west coast could and would have moved through Southern Ontario between Windsor and Niagara Falls/Buffalo on their way to NY, NJ, and points east.
________________
Drew Bunn

Burlington,  ON
drew.r.bunn@...
905 483 0758




Tim O'Connor
 


AHEM. The Buffalo Creek box cars were XM. They could be loaded by ANY railroad in Michigan,
Indiana, Ohio, Eastern Canada, West Virginia, Virginia, Maryland, Delaware. Pennsylvania, New Jersey,
New York, Connecticut, Massachusetts, Vermont, New Hampshire, Maine, or Rhode Island with any
XM type of cargo and from there be sent to ANY destination in North America - under standard AAR
car loading rules.

Where is Tim Gilbert when we need him?? Weren't you guys paying attention during the YEARS of
discussions we had about car loading rules and why everyone's box cars went practically everywhere?

More generally, BCK box cars were a small percentage of the North American box car fleet, so they
were most likely infrequent visitors to western Canada or California or Texas - But they undoubtedly
did end up in those places sometimes.

Here is a ~1960 photo of BCK 2997 in Oakland, California.

Tim O'Connor



On 11/9/2021 10:56 PM, Jim Mischke wrote:

Bud and friend:


The Buffalo mills produced a variety of proprietary flours, mixes and feeds.   For a western Canadian customer, a Buffalo Creek boxcar will do.

Insulated boxcars protect ladings from temperature extremes.   Many are cold but few are frozen.   Jars and canned goods cannot be allowed to freeze, so that might be a lading for an insulated boxcar..  If western Canadian grocers want Mott's apple sauce from New York, an NYRB boxcar will do.

Canada has always been largely self-sufficient with pre-NAFTA tariff barriers to maintain it that way.  Yet there are many occasions when only an American product will suffice and distinctive US railroad cars make their way north.


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Brian Carlson
 

Except many were stenciled for flour service only and return to Buffalo. We’re they used for other cargo’s, yes. Car service rule zero, protect the shipper. 

Also, what’s forgotten is these cars and their DL&W and LV cousins did go out west often due to integrated vertical manufacturing processes. Lots of flour milled in Buffalo was sent for further processing/use along. I have lists of photos in Texas at a sunshine bakery. 

I have a lot of data on flour/grain moves in and out of Buffalo but haven’t figured out a good way to present it that would be interesting.  

Brian J. Carlson 

On Nov 10, 2021, at 5:28 PM, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:


AHEM. The Buffalo Creek box cars were XM. They could be loaded by ANY railroad in Michigan,
Indiana, Ohio, Eastern Canada, West Virginia, Virginia, Maryland, Delaware. Pennsylvania, New Jersey,
New York, Connecticut, Massachusetts, Vermont, New Hampshire, Maine, or Rhode Island with any
XM type of cargo and from there be sent to ANY destination in North America - under standard AAR
car loading rules.

Where is Tim Gilbert when we need him?? Weren't you guys paying attention during the YEARS of
discussions we had about car loading rules and why everyone's box cars went practically everywhere?

More generally, BCK box cars were a small percentage of the North American box car fleet, so they
were most likely infrequent visitors to western Canada or California or Texas - But they undoubtedly
did end up in those places sometimes.

Here is a ~1960 photo of BCK 2997 in Oakland, California.

Tim O'Connor



On 11/9/2021 10:56 PM, Jim Mischke wrote:

Bud and friend:


The Buffalo mills produced a variety of proprietary flours, mixes and feeds.   For a western Canadian customer, a Buffalo Creek boxcar will do.

Insulated boxcars protect ladings from temperature extremes.   Many are cold but few are frozen.   Jars and canned goods cannot be allowed to freeze, so that might be a lading for an insulated boxcar..  If western Canadian grocers want Mott's apple sauce from New York, an NYRB boxcar will do.

Canada has always been largely self-sufficient with pre-NAFTA tariff barriers to maintain it that way.  Yet there are many occasions when only an American product will suffice and distinctive US railroad cars make their way north.


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts
<bck_2997 40ft_SD_box ACF-1956 shopdate 3-60 OaklandCA circa 1960.jpg>

--
Brian J. Carlson, P.E.
Cheektowaga NY


Robert G P
 

Pardon my ignorance on the matter, but why are those specific states highlighted? I was under the impression that any interchange XM car in the continental U.S could be loaded and shipped anywhere. 

Thanks 
- Bob

On Wed, Nov 10, 2021 at 6:20 PM Brian Carlson via groups.io <prrk41361=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Except many were stenciled for flour service only and return to Buffalo. We’re they used for other cargo’s, yes. Car service rule zero, protect the shipper. 

Also, what’s forgotten is these cars and their DL&W and LV cousins did go out west often due to integrated vertical manufacturing processes. Lots of flour milled in Buffalo was sent for further processing/use along. I have lists of photos in Texas at a sunshine bakery. 

I have a lot of data on flour/grain moves in and out of Buffalo but haven’t figured out a good way to present it that would be interesting.  

Brian J. Carlson 

On Nov 10, 2021, at 5:28 PM, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:


AHEM. The Buffalo Creek box cars were XM. They could be loaded by ANY railroad in Michigan,
Indiana, Ohio, Eastern Canada, West Virginia, Virginia, Maryland, Delaware. Pennsylvania, New Jersey,
New York, Connecticut, Massachusetts, Vermont, New Hampshire, Maine, or Rhode Island with any
XM type of cargo and from there be sent to ANY destination in North America - under standard AAR
car loading rules.

Where is Tim Gilbert when we need him?? Weren't you guys paying attention during the YEARS of
discussions we had about car loading rules and why everyone's box cars went practically everywhere?

More generally, BCK box cars were a small percentage of the North American box car fleet, so they
were most likely infrequent visitors to western Canada or California or Texas - But they undoubtedly
did end up in those places sometimes.

Here is a ~1960 photo of BCK 2997 in Oakland, California.

Tim O'Connor



On 11/9/2021 10:56 PM, Jim Mischke wrote:

Bud and friend:


The Buffalo mills produced a variety of proprietary flours, mixes and feeds.   For a western Canadian customer, a Buffalo Creek boxcar will do.

Insulated boxcars protect ladings from temperature extremes.   Many are cold but few are frozen.   Jars and canned goods cannot be allowed to freeze, so that might be a lading for an insulated boxcar..  If western Canadian grocers want Mott's apple sauce from New York, an NYRB boxcar will do.

Canada has always been largely self-sufficient with pre-NAFTA tariff barriers to maintain it that way.  Yet there are many occasions when only an American product will suffice and distinctive US railroad cars make their way north.


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts
<bck_2997 40ft_SD_box ACF-1956 shopdate 3-60 OaklandCA circa 1960.jpg>

--
Brian J. Carlson, P.E.
Cheektowaga NY


Jim Mischke
 



Sorry to sound so narrow.   I try to research and model known loads between certain shippers and consignees, in likely cars.  You were asking about specific Canada-bound boxcars and I framed examples for your consideration.

The originating railroad is responsible for finding a suitable car for a shipment, usually they have cars of their own to cover the traffic.  Finding load backhauls for empty foreign boxcars was common, home road boxcars were more the norm.


 

Interesting that Kadee just announced this car for November. 

Thanks!
Brian Ehni 
(Sent from my iPhone)

On Nov 10, 2021, at 6:53 PM, Jim Mischke <jmischke@...> wrote:



Sorry to sound so narrow.   I try to research and model known loads between certain shippers and consignees, in likely cars.  You were asking about specific Canada-bound boxcars and I framed examples for your consideration.

The originating railroad is responsible for finding a suitable car for a shipment, usually they have cars of their own to cover the traffic.  Finding load backhauls for empty foreign boxcars was common, home road boxcars were more the norm.


Tim O'Connor
 


They were all stenciled return empty to Buffalo. But so what? Under AAR rules they would
be treated like other XM box cars. There's nothing in the ORER that indicates the cars enjoyed
some special exemption from the usual rules. Of course if the alternative is to return a car a long
distance as an empty, there's an incentive to find a load for it in the general direction of its home
road - but that incentive would apply to anyone's car in that situation.

There must be more to the story though. Buffalo Creek began buying new box cars over a short
period of time in the 1950's - from having no cars at all, to having almost 2,000! What happened
that led this small terminal railroad to do that?

Tim O'Connor


On 11/10/2021 6:19 PM, Brian Carlson via groups.io wrote:
Except many were stenciled for flour service only and return to Buffalo. We’re they used for other cargo’s, yes. Car service rule zero, protect the shipper. 

Also, what’s forgotten is these cars and their DL&W and LV cousins did go out west often due to integrated vertical manufacturing processes. Lots of flour milled in Buffalo was sent for further processing/use along. I have lists of photos in Texas at a sunshine bakery. 

I have a lot of data on flour/grain moves in and out of Buffalo but haven’t figured out a good way to present it that would be interesting.  

Brian J. Carlson 

On Nov 10, 2021, at 5:28 PM, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:


AHEM. The Buffalo Creek box cars were XM. They could be loaded by ANY railroad in Michigan,
Indiana, Ohio, Eastern Canada, West Virginia, Virginia, Maryland, Delaware. Pennsylvania, New Jersey,
New York, Connecticut, Massachusetts, Vermont, New Hampshire, Maine, or Rhode Island with any
XM type of cargo and from there be sent to ANY destination in North America - under standard AAR
car loading rules.

Where is Tim Gilbert when we need him?? Weren't you guys paying attention during the YEARS of
discussions we had about car loading rules and why everyone's box cars went practically everywhere?

More generally, BCK box cars were a small percentage of the North American box car fleet, so they
were most likely infrequent visitors to western Canada or California or Texas - But they undoubtedly
did end up in those places sometimes.

Here is a ~1960 photo of BCK 2997 in Oakland, California.

Tim O'Connor



On 11/9/2021 10:56 PM, Jim Mischke wrote:

Bud and friend:


The Buffalo mills produced a variety of proprietary flours, mixes and feeds.   For a western Canadian customer, a Buffalo Creek boxcar will do.

Insulated boxcars protect ladings from temperature extremes.   Many are cold but few are frozen.   Jars and canned goods cannot be allowed to freeze, so that might be a lading for an insulated boxcar..  If western Canadian grocers want Mott's apple sauce from New York, an NYRB boxcar will do.

Canada has always been largely self-sufficient with pre-NAFTA tariff barriers to maintain it that way.  Yet there are many occasions when only an American product will suffice and distinctive US railroad cars make their way north.


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts
<bck_2997 40ft_SD_box ACF-1956 shopdate 3-60 OaklandCA circa 1960.jpg>

--
Brian J. Carlson, P.E.
Cheektowaga NY


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Tim O'Connor
 


Bob, the rules are based on the idea of "home districts". The BCK belonged to district 16 which includes
New York and Pennsylvania. The rule is that if a car belongs to a railroad in District X, and the car is now
in District X, or is in any ADJACENT District Y, then - no matter which railroad it is on at the moment - it
can be sent as a load from X or Y to any other destination on any other railroad.

So an empty BCK box car in Texas for example would NOT be loaded in Texas to go to California, but it could
be loaded to go to New Jersey or Virginia or Maine - yet none of those destinations is "home" to the BCK.
In Maine, it could be loaded with clothes pins and sent directly to California - without violating any rules!
This is why freight cars famously could travel around for months or even years and never reach home rails.

Tim O'Connor


On 11/10/2021 6:44 PM, Robert G P wrote:
Pardon my ignorance on the matter, but why are those specific states highlighted? I was under the impression that any interchange XM car in the continental U.S could be loaded and shipped anywhere. 

Thanks 
- Bob

On Wed, Nov 10, 2021 at 6:20 PM Brian Carlson via groups.io <prrk41361=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Except many were stenciled for flour service only and return to Buffalo. We’re they used for other cargo’s, yes. Car service rule zero, protect the shipper. 

Also, what’s forgotten is these cars and their DL&W and LV cousins did go out west often due to integrated vertical manufacturing processes. Lots of flour milled in Buffalo was sent for further processing/use along. I have lists of photos in Texas at a sunshine bakery. 

I have a lot of data on flour/grain moves in and out of Buffalo but haven’t figured out a good way to present it that would be interesting.  

Brian J. Carlson 

On Nov 10, 2021, at 5:28 PM, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:


AHEM. The Buffalo Creek box cars were XM. They could be loaded by ANY railroad in Michigan,
Indiana, Ohio, Eastern Canada, West Virginia, Virginia, Maryland, Delaware. Pennsylvania, New Jersey,
New York, Connecticut, Massachusetts, Vermont, New Hampshire, Maine, or Rhode Island with any
XM type of cargo and from there be sent to ANY destination in North America - under standard AAR
car loading rules.

Where is Tim Gilbert when we need him?? Weren't you guys paying attention during the YEARS of
discussions we had about car loading rules and why everyone's box cars went practically everywhere?

More generally, BCK box cars were a small percentage of the North American box car fleet, so they
were most likely infrequent visitors to western Canada or California or Texas - But they undoubtedly
did end up in those places sometimes.

Here is a ~1960 photo of BCK 2997 in Oakland, California.

Tim O'Connor



On 11/9/2021 10:56 PM, Jim Mischke wrote:

Bud and friend:


The Buffalo mills produced a variety of proprietary flours, mixes and feeds.   For a western Canadian customer, a Buffalo Creek boxcar will do.

Insulated boxcars protect ladings from temperature extremes.   Many are cold but few are frozen.   Jars and canned goods cannot be allowed to freeze, so that might be a lading for an insulated boxcar..  If western Canadian grocers want Mott's apple sauce from New York, an NYRB boxcar will do.

Canada has always been largely self-sufficient with pre-NAFTA tariff barriers to maintain it that way.  Yet there are many occasions when only an American product will suffice and distinctive US railroad cars make their way north.


--
Tim O'Connor


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Robert G P
 

Thanks so much Tim!       Fascinating topic.

-Bob

On Wed, Nov 10, 2021 at 9:12 PM Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:

Bob, the rules are based on the idea of "home districts". The BCK belonged to district 16 which includes
New York and Pennsylvania. The rule is that if a car belongs to a railroad in District X, and the car is now
in District X, or is in any ADJACENT District Y, then - no matter which railroad it is on at the moment - it
can be sent as a load from X or Y to any other destination on any other railroad.

So an empty BCK box car in Texas for example would NOT be loaded in Texas to go to California, but it could
be loaded to go to New Jersey or Virginia or Maine - yet none of those destinations is "home" to the BCK.
In Maine, it could be loaded with clothes pins and sent directly to California - without violating any rules!
This is why freight cars famously could travel around for months or even years and never reach home rails.

Tim O'Connor


On 11/10/2021 6:44 PM, Robert G P wrote:
Pardon my ignorance on the matter, but why are those specific states highlighted? I was under the impression that any interchange XM car in the continental U.S could be loaded and shipped anywhere. 

Thanks 
- Bob

On Wed, Nov 10, 2021 at 6:20 PM Brian Carlson via groups.io <prrk41361=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Except many were stenciled for flour service only and return to Buffalo. We’re they used for other cargo’s, yes. Car service rule zero, protect the shipper. 

Also, what’s forgotten is these cars and their DL&W and LV cousins did go out west often due to integrated vertical manufacturing processes. Lots of flour milled in Buffalo was sent for further processing/use along. I have lists of photos in Texas at a sunshine bakery. 

I have a lot of data on flour/grain moves in and out of Buffalo but haven’t figured out a good way to present it that would be interesting.  

Brian J. Carlson 

On Nov 10, 2021, at 5:28 PM, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:


AHEM. The Buffalo Creek box cars were XM. They could be loaded by ANY railroad in Michigan,
Indiana, Ohio, Eastern Canada, West Virginia, Virginia, Maryland, Delaware. Pennsylvania, New Jersey,
New York, Connecticut, Massachusetts, Vermont, New Hampshire, Maine, or Rhode Island with any
XM type of cargo and from there be sent to ANY destination in North America - under standard AAR
car loading rules.

Where is Tim Gilbert when we need him?? Weren't you guys paying attention during the YEARS of
discussions we had about car loading rules and why everyone's box cars went practically everywhere?

More generally, BCK box cars were a small percentage of the North American box car fleet, so they
were most likely infrequent visitors to western Canada or California or Texas - But they undoubtedly
did end up in those places sometimes.

Here is a ~1960 photo of BCK 2997 in Oakland, California.

Tim O'Connor



On 11/9/2021 10:56 PM, Jim Mischke wrote:

Bud and friend:


The Buffalo mills produced a variety of proprietary flours, mixes and feeds.   For a western Canadian customer, a Buffalo Creek boxcar will do.

Insulated boxcars protect ladings from temperature extremes.   Many are cold but few are frozen.   Jars and canned goods cannot be allowed to freeze, so that might be a lading for an insulated boxcar..  If western Canadian grocers want Mott's apple sauce from New York, an NYRB boxcar will do.

Canada has always been largely self-sufficient with pre-NAFTA tariff barriers to maintain it that way.  Yet there are many occasions when only an American product will suffice and distinctive US railroad cars make their way north.


--
Tim O'Connor


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


George LaPray
 

The Buffalo Creek cars were pretty common in Minnespta at least thru the mid 70s.  A lot of wheat moved by lake boats from Duluth Superior to Buffalo.  Some years they were not able to get  it all moved via water before freeze up, in those years expect hundreds of BCK boxes to show up in Duluth Superior for wheat loading to Buffalo. I recall solid trainloads of loaded BCK boxes heading east for Chicago mostly via SOO.