Quality Craft kit question


Alexander Schneider Jr
 

I am puzzled by something in the instructions for my Quality Craft kit for a NYC / C&O well car. "Place the train line on both sides of the car as this car had a double brake system."

Why is a second train line needed?


Edward
 

I built one of therm in 1994.
I also have a 1953 edition of Car Builders Cyclopedia, which has a photo of a C&O well hole flat built by the Greenville Steel Car Co. and used it for a reference.
It shows a train line just under the top coaming of the well hole only, but there is only one photo, with the "A" end of the car facing right.

At the time I questioned the two train lines and tried to find a piping diagram for the double brake (an AB set for each truck) freight car, but did not find one.
So I made up some piping diagrams to justify two train lines (using piping diagrams in same Car Builders issue). 
None worked out logically. 

In buliding my model, I put on just one train line, for the side the Car Builders Cyclopedia photo showed. 
If ever a photo comes up showing the "B" end of that same car on the right side end with a train line, then I'll add one.

Ed Bommer


Steve and Barb Hile
 

Ed, Alex,

 

The Pullman Library on-line Jim Kinkaid photo collection has photos of both a NYC well car, 499086

 

Railroad-N-Q - Pullman-Library (smugmug.com)

 

and the C&O car Ed showed

 

Railroad-C - Pullman-Library (smugmug.com)

 

The C&O photo shows the train line running outside the well.

 

The NYC photo shows no train line on the side photo.

 

The cars were built about 9 years apart, and so, could have been somewhat different.

 

I see no reason for dual train lines, but understand the need for brake systems on each end each with its own brake wheel.

 

Steve Hile

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Edward
Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2021 10:56 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Quality Craft kit question

 

I built one of therm in 1994.
I also have a 1953 edition of Car Builders Cyclopedia, which has a photo of a C&O well hole flat built by the Greenville Steel Car Co. and used it for a reference.
It shows a train line just under the top coaming of the well hole only, but there is only one photo, with the "A" end of the car facing right.

At the time I questioned the two train lines and tried to find a piping diagram for the double brake (an AB set for each truck) freight car, but did not find one.
So I made up some piping diagrams to justify two train lines (using piping diagrams in same Car Builders issue). 
None worked out logically. 

In buliding my model, I put on just one train line, for the side the Car Builders Cyclopedia photo showed. 
If ever a photo comes up showing the "B" end of that same car on the right side end with a train line, then I'll add one.

Ed Bommer


Alexander Schneider Jr
 

Ed and Steve, thank you for getting back to me. I understand fully why it was easier to have separate cylinders and reservoirs for the brakes on each truck, but those aren't modeled. The train line baffled me. 

Ed, your model is outstanding. Wood and metal kits can build up nicely if you're skilled. 

Because I worked in the electric utility field I will probably over represent heavy duty flat cars. Just so they don't show up in every train! 

On Sun, Dec 19, 2021 at 11:42 AM, Steve and Barb Hile
<shile@...> wrote:

Ed, Alex,

 

The Pullman Library on-line Jim Kinkaid photo collection has photos of both a NYC well car, 499086

 

Railroad-N-Q - Pullman-Library (smugmug.com)

 

and the C&O car Ed showed

 

Railroad-C - Pullman-Library (smugmug.com)

 

The C&O photo shows the train line running outside the well.

 

The NYC photo shows no train line on the side photo.

 

The cars were built about 9 years apart, and so, could have been somewhat different.

 

I see no reason for dual train lines, but understand the need for brake systems on each end each with its own brake wheel.

 

Steve Hile

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Edward
Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2021 10:56 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Quality Craft kit question

 

I built one of therm in 1994.
I also have a 1953 edition of Car Builders Cyclopedia, which has a photo of a C&O well hole flat built by the Greenville Steel Car Co. and used it for a reference.
It shows a train line just under the top coaming of the well hole only, but there is only one photo, with the "A" end of the car facing right.

At the time I questioned the two train lines and tried to find a piping diagram for the double brake (an AB set for each truck) freight car, but did not find one.
So I made up some piping diagrams to justify two train lines (using piping diagrams in same Car Builders issue). 
None worked out logically. 

In buliding my model, I put on just one train line, for the side the Car Builders Cyclopedia photo showed. 
If ever a photo comes up showing the "B" end of that same car on the right side end with a train line, then I'll add one.

Ed Bommer


Seth Lakin
 

Alex, I too have a Quality Craft C&O/NYC Greenville Well Hole kit. 1977 Prestige wood and metal kit.  

10 were built for the C&O in 1948 then two were sold to the NYC in 1950 becoming the lot 808-F. 

There was a two part article in the NYCSHS Central Headlight with in the last two years that covers all of NYC’s regular and heavy duty flats.

There are only 2 photos of the 808-F in the NYCSHS archives  

https://nycshs.omeka.net/search?query=808-F&query_type=exact_match&record_types%5B%5D=Item&submit_search=Search

Im out for the evening but I’ll look in the file that I have for these cars tomorrow. 


Seth Lakin
Michigan City IN
NYCSHS Modelers Committee Chair


Alexander Schneider Jr
 

Thanks for the links. Were these cars welded rather than riveted? 

Looking further, the difficult part of there cars will be the 6 wheel truck mountings. QC was determined to have the center of rotation directly over the middle axle and they have you gluing a pivot plate onto the underbody. Central Valley's knob and dress snap arrangement, of the same era, was removable. Athearn and others shifted the pivot to allow access to a screw. 

I'm wondering if a #4 nut could be epoxied under the car and a hex bolt run up through the hole and tightened with pliers. Has anyone tried such an arrangement for mounting 6 wheel trucks?

On Sun, Dec 19, 2021 at 2:31 PM, Seth Lakin via groups.io
<lakinsa@...> wrote:

Alex, I too have a Quality Craft C&O/NYC Greenville Well Hole kit. 1977 Prestige wood and metal kit.  

10 were built for the C&O in 1948 then two were sold to the NYC in 1950 becoming the lot 808-F. 

There was a two part article in the NYCSHS Central Headlight with in the last two years that covers all of NYC’s regular and heavy duty flats.

There are only 2 photos of the 808-F in the NYCSHS archives  

https://nycshs.omeka.net/search?query=808-F&query_type=exact_match&record_types%5B%5D=Item&submit_search=Search

Im out for the evening but I’ll look in the file that I have for these cars tomorrow. 


Seth Lakin
Michigan City IN
NYCSHS Modelers Committee Chair


Edward
 
Edited

To mount  the QC trucks on my model, I used a pair of Walthers kingpins shortened to fit through the QC body and truck bolsters.
The heads of the kingpins were fitted into recesses ground into the the bottoms of the soft, cast metal deckplates to be cemented above the car bolster.
The king pin was cut just long enough to drill a hole slightly below the bottom of the truck bolster when put on the car (which was upsidedown).
A washer was used to gauge where the hole should be drilled in the king pin.
A cotter pin was used to hold the truck to the polster, making sure the bottom of the king pin cleared the center axle.

Installing the trucks was  complicated and it was all a very close fit.
The truck needs to be postioned forward enough so it can swing and not strike the well hole casing behind it.
Nor sould it foul the car steps at the corners, when traversing a curve. 

I filed down the thickness of the truck end beam on what would be the 'inside' end for each truck, to gain a little more space.
My well hole car cme out with about a 48" minumum radius.
It tracked OK through a well laid and gauged No. 5 switch, but tended to derail on the only No. 4 on my layout.

Inspite of all that fussy work, using king pins with cotter pin locks makes it easier to put on or take off a truck than would be a screw head or nut directly above the center axle. 
The method I used also avoids running a screw directly into or through the metal deck plates on each end. 

Ed Bommer


Richard Wilkens
 

Here is a photo of C&O 80977 at Rockport, WA with a water turbine runner for Generator No. 41 at the Ross Dam powerhouse and the photo was taken in 1955. 

Richard Wilkens


Tim O'Connor
 


Overland's model. The AB stuff is up above the trucks. An easily omitted detail.


On 12/19/2021 12:42 PM, Steve and Barb Hile wrote:

Ed, Alex,

 

The Pullman Library on-line Jim Kinkaid photo collection has photos of both a NYC well car, 499086

 

Railroad-N-Q - Pullman-Library (smugmug.com)

 

and the C&O car Ed showed

 

Railroad-C - Pullman-Library (smugmug.com)

 

The C&O photo shows the train line running outside the well.

 

The NYC photo shows no train line on the side photo.

 

The cars were built about 9 years apart, and so, could have been somewhat different.

 

I see no reason for dual train lines, but understand the need for brake systems on each end each with its own brake wheel.

 

Steve Hile

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Edward
Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2021 10:56 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Quality Craft kit question

 

I built one of therm in 1994.
I also have a 1953 edition of Car Builders Cyclopedia, which has a photo of a C&O well hole flat built by the Greenville Steel Car Co. and used it for a reference.
It shows a train line just under the top coaming of the well hole only, but there is only one photo, with the "A" end of the car facing right.

At the time I questioned the two train lines and tried to find a piping diagram for the double brake (an AB set for each truck) freight car, but did not find one.
So I made up some piping diagrams to justify two train lines (using piping diagrams in same Car Builders issue). 
None worked out logically. 

In buliding my model, I put on just one train line, for the side the Car Builders Cyclopedia photo showed. 
If ever a photo comes up showing the "B" end of that same car on the right side end with a train line, then I'll add one.

Ed Bommer



--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Dennis Storzek <dennis@...>
 

On Sun, Dec 19, 2021 at 03:10 PM, Tim O'Connor wrote:
Overland's model. The AB stuff is up above the trucks. An easily omitted detail.
So, does the Overland Models car have a train line on each side, which was the original question? Quite frankly, I don't see the need if the car really has two full AB brake systems.

Dennis Storzek


Bruce Smith
 

Folks,

I've been following this thread, mostly because I'm puzzled by the original QC instructions. There is no need at all for two trainlines, even with the car having two reservoirs, AB valves, and cylinders. 

It seems that the only way to resolve this issue, however, is to find a photograph of a C&O car in the series with no trainline on the photographed side (proving that a single trainline was used) or a drawing that shows the brake arrangement.

The PRR F33, a very similar car, clearly had a single trainline down one side of the car. Interestingly, and often not modeled, is that the other side of the car has the necessary holes in the side sill for a trainline, but one is not present. The obvious assumption is that the parts were made without concern for which side of the car would have the trainline. I made sure to model this detail on my F&C F33 😉

Regards,
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


fire5506
 

I tried looking for pictures, but all I found looked like the same side. I did find a message where they poster said there are two published photographs of car #80996 in the Train Shed Cylopedia No17 on page 205. This is the webpage of that conversation, https://www.mylargescale.com/threads/61-foot-c-o-well-hole-car.26621/
I did find this picture http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1598132 But I cannot tell for sure if it's the same side or not.
In my time working on the railroad, I have never seen a car with 2 trainlines even on cars with 2 sets of valves.

Richard Webster


Richard Townsend
 

Mainline Modeler had a series of articles by Robert Hundman on scratchbuilding these cars starting in the February 1989 issue (pages 38 - 41) and continuing in the March 1989 (pages 66 - 69), April 1989 (pages 70 - 72), and May 1989 (pages 72 - 75) issues. There are various prototype photos in the first article that show some side views of such cars without train lines. The plans in the first article (and repeated in the second) show a train line on the side, but they only show one side and the cross sections are not informative in this regard. In describing building the model Mr. Hundman did not say anything about train lines on both sides and some of the photos of the model show a side without a train line.

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR


-----Original Message-----
From: fire5506 via groups.io <fire5506@...>
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Sent: Sun, Dec 19, 2021 8:12 pm
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Quality Craft kit question

I tried looking for pictures, but all I found looked like the same side. I did find a message where they poster said there are two published photographs of car #80996 in the Train Shed Cylopedia No17 on page 205. This is the webpage of that conversation, https://www.mylargescale.com/threads/61-foot-c-o-well-hole-car.26621/
I did find this picture http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1598132 But I cannot tell for sure if it's the same side or not.
In my time working on the railroad, I have never seen a car with 2 trainlines even on cars with 2 sets of valves.

Richard Webster


Tim O'Connor
 


Not on BOTH sides. Only on one side, with the "A end" on the left and the "B end" to the right. The trainline MUST be
passed through to maintain to provide continuity throughout the train!

Tim O'Connor



On 12/19/2021 9:23 PM, Dennis Storzek wrote:
On Sun, Dec 19, 2021 at 03:10 PM, Tim O'Connor wrote:
Overland's model. The AB stuff is up above the trucks. An easily omitted detail.
So, does the Overland Models car have a train line on each side, which was the original question? Quite frankly, I don't see the need if the car really has two full AB brake systems.

Dennis Storzek

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Alexander Schneider Jr
 

As an Illinois Railway Museum volunteer conductor I know our cars have one and only one train line,  which made the QC instructions baffling. It would be interesting to know if the MR or RMC reviewed the kit when it came out in 1977.

As for the trucks, I wonder if double sided tape would hold them on while being removable. At least it would allow coupler test fitting. 

The NYC Classification Book diagram can be seen on canadasouthern.com .

As soon as I build the kit I know Tangent or Rapido will roll out a much nicer one.

On Mon, Dec 20, 2021 at 8:44 AM, Tim O'Connor
<timboconnor@...> wrote:

Not on BOTH sides. Only on one side, with the "A end" on the left and the "B end" to the right. The trainline MUST be
passed through to maintain to provide continuity throughout the train!

Tim O'Connor



On 12/19/2021 9:23 PM, Dennis Storzek wrote:
On Sun, Dec 19, 2021 at 03:10 PM, Tim O'Connor wrote:
Overland's model. The AB stuff is up above the trucks. An easily omitted detail.
So, does the Overland Models car have a train line on each side, which was the original question? Quite frankly, I don't see the need if the car really has two full AB brake systems.

Dennis Storzek

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Jack Mullen
 

On Mon, Dec 20, 2021 at 06:44 AM, Tim O'Connor wrote:
Only on one side, with the "A end" on the left and the "B end" to the right.
But your photo of the Overland model shows the train line on the L (left) side, while the builder's photo of 90996
https://pullman-lib.smugmug.com/Railroad-C/i-GPxx846/A
shows the train line on the R (right) side, with the A end to the right in the broadside photo.
Even high quality models aren't necessarily reliable prototype evidence.

Jack Mullen


WILLIAM PARDIE
 

How does one determine the A and B end on this car?

Bill Pardie



Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone


-------- Original message --------
From: Jack Mullen <jack.f.mullen@...>
Date: 12/20/21 2:02 PM (GMT-10:00)
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Quality Craft kit question

On Mon, Dec 20, 2021 at 06:44 AM, Tim O'Connor wrote:
Only on one side, with the "A end" on the left and the "B end" to the right.
But your photo of the Overland model shows the train line on the L (left) side, while the builder's photo of 90996
https://pullman-lib.smugmug.com/Railroad-C/i-GPxx846/A
shows the train line on the R (right) side, with the A end to the right in the broadside photo.
Even high quality models aren't necessarily reliable prototype evidence.

Jack Mullen


Ralph W. Brown
 

Hi Jack,
 
If you enlarge the Pullman Library photo, you’ll find “A End” stenciled on the side between the towing staple and the stirrup step at the right side of the photo.
 
 
Ralph Brown
Portland, Maine
PRRT&HS No. 3966
NMRA No. L2532

rbrown51[at]maine[dot]rr[dot]com
 

From: Jack Mullen
Sent: Monday, December 20, 2021 7:02 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Quality Craft kit question
 
On Mon, Dec 20, 2021 at 06:44 AM, Tim O'Connor wrote:
Only on one side, with the "A end" on the left and the "B end" to the right.
But your photo of the Overland model shows the train line on the L (left) side, while the builder's photo of 90996
https://pullman-lib.smugmug.com/Railroad-C/i-GPxx846/A
shows the train line on the R (right) side, with the A end to the right in the broadside photo.
Even high quality models aren't necessarily reliable prototype evidence.

Jack Mullen


Tony Thompson
 

It should be lettered on the car.
Tony Thompson 


On Dec 20, 2021, at 4:07 PM, WILLIAM PARDIE <PARDIEW001@...> wrote:


How does one determine the A and B end on this car?

Bill Pardie



Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone


-------- Original message --------
From: Jack Mullen <jack.f.mullen@...>
Date: 12/20/21 2:02 PM (GMT-10:00)
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Quality Craft kit question

On Mon, Dec 20, 2021 at 06:44 AM, Tim O'Connor wrote:
Only on one side, with the "A end" on the left and the "B end" to the right.
But your photo of the Overland model shows the train line on the L (left) side, while the builder's photo of 90996
https://pullman-lib.smugmug.com/Railroad-C/i-GPxx846/A
shows the train line on the R (right) side, with the A end to the right in the broadside photo.
Even high quality models aren't necessarily reliable prototype evidence.

Jack Mullen


fire5506
 

Tim,

  I would not go by a picture of a model as either it IS on both sides or the model is wrong as the picture in the Pullman archives shows it just opposite with the A-end on the right and the B-end on the left. Since it is a builders photo I would figure that the ends are marked correctly. I don't know if all the cars are the same as your picture is of a different car.

https://pullman-lib.smugmug.com/Railroad-C/i-GPxx846/A

Richard 


On Mon, Dec 20, 2021 at 09:44 AM, Tim O'Connor wrote:

Not on BOTH sides. Only on one side, with the "A end" on the left and the "B end" to the right. The trainline MUST be
passed through to maintain to provide continuity throughout the train!

Tim O'Connor



On 12/19/2021 9:23 PM, Dennis Storzek wrote:
On Sun, Dec 19, 2021 at 03:10 PM, Tim O'Connor wrote:
Overland's model. The AB stuff is up above the trucks. An easily omitted detail.
So, does the Overland Models car have a train line on each side, which was the original question? Quite frankly, I don't see the need if the car really has two full AB brake systems.

Dennis Storzek

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts