Finish issues


Eric Hansmann
 

I ran into an odd issue after spraying clear coats on a pair of resin boxcar kits. Luckily, I found a fix. The latest DesignBuilOp blog post documents the troubles and the fix.

http://designbuildop.hansmanns.org/2022/01/24/fixing-a-finish/


Eric Hansmann
Murfreesboro, TN


John Sykes III
 

Just one more problem with acrylic finishes.  Doesn't happen with Scalecoat I/II and Testors Dullcoat.  Problem is most likely due to the incompatibility of water based and solvent based products.  Although I have to admit, I don't know what they are using in Microsol these days (Microset is still dilute acetic acid).  I make my own decal setting solution with butyl cellosolve (2-butoxyethanol) and water.  Basically the original Solvaset formula.  Use several different dilutions from about 2% to almost 10% (for old champ decals).  Your model looks like what happens when you shoot lacquer in high humidity.  Be careful with the butyl cellosolve, 10% bc in 91% isopropyl alcohol is roughly what was in Chameleon or Wash Away paint removers.


Eric Hansmann
 

No offense John, but I'd say your comment, "Just one more problem with acrylic finishes," is a generalization on the finish issue.

I've been using Vallejo acrylics and Model Master flat acryl since early 2015. I've painted and finished nearly fifty models in that time. This has been the only instance where an issue cropped up after the final flat coat.

I've been using Micro Sol and Micro Set for a few years, too. After the decals and setting solution dries, I spray on a gloss coat of Future/Pledge Floor Finish. When that is dry, the flat coat is sprayed onto the models. 

Maybe I didn't shake the bottle of Model Master flat acryl enough to mix of the talc and thinner. Or maybe the drops of Vallejo paint I add to tint the flat did not mix well enough this time. I don't know.

Maybe is was a humid December day here when I sprayed the flat coat on the models. Or maybe the 55 degree temp that day wasn't warm enough to do this work. My booth is in the garage and I keep the door open when I use it, even though it vents around off to the side of the door opening. It could have been a number of factors.

At this point, I'm very happy I figured out how to eliminate most of the haze on a pair of models that I started building in July.


Eric Hansmann
Murfreesboro, TN


On 01/24/2022 8:14 AM John Sykes III via groups.io <johnsykesiii@...> wrote:


Just one more problem with acrylic finishes.  Doesn't happen with Scalecoat I/II and Testors Dullcoat.  Problem is most likely due to the incompatibility of water based and solvent based products.  Although I have to admit, I don't know what they are using in Microsol these days (Microset is still dilute acetic acid).  I make my own decal setting solution with butyl cellosolve (2-butoxyethanol) and water.  Basically the original Solvaset formula.  Use several different dilutions from about 2% to almost 10% (for old champ decals).  Your model looks like what happens when you shoot lacquer in high humidity.  Be careful with the butyl cellosolve, 10% bc in 91% isopropyl alcohol is roughly what was in Chameleon or Wash Away paint removers.



William Dale
 

Eric, 

     You mentioned humidity and garage in your post. Is there any chance your garage is masonry in construct? I had this same issue pop up on two
cars I was working on in the past, at the same time. I felt that high humidity was the culprit. As you know living on the east it plagues us. My home, the main part is two foot thick stone walls, I work outside, so I’m one not to run the A/C in the summer, and this was the time frame in which I did decal these cars. Now, to your credit, patience prevailed, I on the other hand was off to the grit blast cabinet and started over. Now, I should mention I use a wide variety of paints, mostly Tru-Color, a few acrylics, and Scalecoat to round it out. That said, I’m not going to point a finger at the type of paint used, more Mother Nature.

Billy


Ken Adams
 

Like Eric, I have used Micro Set on problem decals and it has cleared up most problems. If that fails, sometimes Walthers Solvset will work.

I am close to 100% acrylic for finish color on models these days as the fumes have ruled out use of solvents for painting. That and my townhouse/apartment style living does not allow setting up permanent painting stations.  With the newer canister style airbrushes I have been able to spray acrylics on my deck with a temporary painting station between gusts of the almost constant wind.
--
Ken Adams
Omicron may come and go but I still live in splendid Shelter In Place solitude
Location: About half way up Walnut Creek
Owner PlasticFreightCarBuilders@groups.io


Ken Adams
 

Ooops got it reversed.  Micro Set for the original decal setting and then Micro Sol for the problem cases.
--
Ken Adams
Omicron may come and go but I still live in splendid Shelter In Place solitude
Location: About half way up Walnut Creek
Owner PlasticFreightCarBuilders@groups.io


Dennis Storzek <dennis@...>
 

On Mon, Jan 24, 2022 at 10:19 AM, Ken Adams wrote:
Ooops got it reversed.  Micro Set for the original decal setting and then Micro Sol for the problem cases.
I always tell myself, "Micro SET to SET the decal in place and Micro SOL to SOLve all the problems."

Dennis Storzek


Dennis Storzek <dennis@...>
 

On Mon, Jan 24, 2022 at 07:14 AM, John Sykes III wrote:
Doesn't happen with Scalecoat I/II and Testors Dullcoat. 
Actually, it does. It is a well known fact that a wash of methyl alcohol over fully dry Dullcote will turn it milky white, in fact, a modern era modeler, Mike Rose, has done several articles on using this as a weathering technique to get a badly faded paint effect. I found this out myself years ago when I used a wash of black shoe dye and methyl alcohol over some styrene models of concrete bridge abutments to bring out the scribed form board detail, but didn't like the effect and didn't see any use for it on steam era equipment.

What I think happened to Eric's model has to do with the high humidity not allowing the Microsol trapper under the decal film dry completely, and migrate out into the flat finish top coat. Some time in a slightly warm oven likely would have prevented it, but the operative words here are SLIGHTLY WARM, lest the resin deform.

Dennis Storzek


Douglas Harding
 

I actually put tape on the caps with numbers, 1 for set and 2 for Sol, so I know which order to use them.

 

Doug Harding

https://www.facebook.com/douglas.harding.3156/

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCK8X8Yb8NEAZqbZjHT5z0sA

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Dennis Storzek
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2022 1:23 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Finish issues

 

On Mon, Jan 24, 2022 at 10:19 AM, Ken Adams wrote:

Ooops got it reversed.  Micro Set for the original decal setting and then Micro Sol for the problem cases.

I always tell myself, "Micro SET to SET the decal in place and Micro SOL to SOLve all the problems."

Dennis Storzek


Nelson Moyer
 

I use Micro Set and Micro Sol almost exclusively, and I’ve never had Eric’s problem, but I paint with lacquers or enamels, not acrylics. I place decals with distilled water, then wick off the excess with a small piece of paper towel. Then I apply Micro Set and wick off the excess so there’s no noticeable liquid under the decal. Before the Micro Set is completely dry, I do another application of Micro Set, gently blotting the decal with side of a soft brush to squeeze out any air bubbles or excess liquid, then wick off the liquid at the edges of the decal. After the decal is dry, I apply Micro Sol liberally and let it evaporate. Do you think clouding would be possible using my technique on acrylic paint?

 

The only time I’ve noticed light paint clouding is when I flooded a large herald decal with Micro Sol and evaporation took some time. The paint was Tru Color, and the clouding disappeared after the Micro Sol evaporated and the decal was thoroughly dry. In this case, clouding was everywhere the Micro Sol covered.

 

Nelson Moyer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Dennis Storzek
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2022 1:43 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Finish issues

 

On Mon, Jan 24, 2022 at 07:14 AM, John Sykes III wrote:

Doesn't happen with Scalecoat I/II and Testors Dullcoat. 

Actually, it does. It is a well known fact that a wash of methyl alcohol over fully dry Dullcote will turn it milky white, in fact, a modern era modeler, Mike Rose, has done several articles on using this as a weathering technique to get a badly faded paint effect. I found this out myself years ago when I used a wash of black shoe dye and methyl alcohol over some styrene models of concrete bridge abutments to bring out the scribed form board detail, but didn't like the effect and didn't see any use for it on steam era equipment.

What I think happened to Eric's model has to do with the high humidity not allowing the Microsol trapper under the decal film dry completely, and migrate out into the flat finish top coat. Some time in a slightly warm oven likely would have prevented it, but the operative words here are SLIGHTLY WARM, lest the resin deform.

Dennis Storzek

 

 


Mike Clements
 

Future will cloud up like that when it gets Micro Sol or Solvaset on it for a while Nelson. It usually (always?) goes away when it dries, even the areas under decals. How long did the Future dry before you put decals on Eric? It is almost like the Micro Set drove the moisture content of the Future up and then the flat coat put those areas over the top and dried from the outside in trapping the moisture. I'm trying to figure this out so I can avoid the same thing!

Mike Clements
Wakefield, MA
nyc65.wordpress.com


Eric Hansmann
 

I followed the same decal setting steps as Nelson. I may not wick up the excess as much, but I wait until the decal areas are dry before adding more solution. I often need to poke some air holes with a pin before brushing on more solution. These are the steps I’ve used on many models that have been painted with acrylics.

 

Once I’m happy with the decals, then the gloss coat is applied. This might be a day after drying, or more. It depends upon the weather here.

 

I didn’t see any clouding after the gloss coat dried. It was another couple days until the flat coat was applied. I noticed the hazing after the flat coat had dried.

 

How could the flat coat react with anything under the gloss coat?

 

 

Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Nelson Moyer
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2022 2:36 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Finish issues

 

I use Micro Set and Micro Sol almost exclusively, and I’ve never had Eric’s problem, but I paint with lacquers or enamels, not acrylics. I place decals with distilled water, then wick off the excess with a small piece of paper towel. Then I apply Micro Set and wick off the excess so there’s no noticeable liquid under the decal. Before the Micro Set is completely dry, I do another application of Micro Set, gently blotting the decal with side of a soft brush to squeeze out any air bubbles or excess liquid, then wick off the liquid at the edges of the decal. After the decal is dry, I apply Micro Sol liberally and let it evaporate. Do you think clouding would be possible using my technique on acrylic paint?

 

The only time I’ve noticed light paint clouding is when I flooded a large herald decal with Micro Sol and evaporation took some time. The paint was Tru Color, and the clouding disappeared after the Micro Sol evaporated and the decal was thoroughly dry. In this case, clouding was everywhere the Micro Sol covered.

 

Nelson Moyer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Dennis Storzek
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2022 1:43 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Finish issues

 

On Mon, Jan 24, 2022 at 07:14 AM, John Sykes III wrote:

Doesn't happen with Scalecoat I/II and Testors Dullcoat. 

Actually, it does. It is a well known fact that a wash of methyl alcohol over fully dry Dullcote will turn it milky white, in fact, a modern era modeler, Mike Rose, has done several articles on using this as a weathering technique to get a badly faded paint effect. I found this out myself years ago when I used a wash of black shoe dye and methyl alcohol over some styrene models of concrete bridge abutments to bring out the scribed form board detail, but didn't like the effect and didn't see any use for it on steam era equipment.

What I think happened to Eric's model has to do with the high humidity not allowing the Microsol trapper under the decal film dry completely, and migrate out into the flat finish top coat. Some time in a slightly warm oven likely would have prevented it, but the operative words here are SLIGHTLY WARM, lest the resin deform.

Dennis Storzek

 

 


Eric Hansmann
 

Yes, the garage is brick. I open the garage door on days with 50+ degree temps to airbrush. I just did this with a few more models. I have a spray booth that is vented with the exhaust going out to the side of the garage. I open the door to warm the place up. It’s also easier to walk the models out to a small table on the driveway to encourage drying.

 

Tennessee can be pretty humid, but I sprayed the flat coat onto these models December 21st. It’s about the same weather here today with temps in the mid-50s and humidity at 38%. The models sit outside while I clean the airbrush and put supplies away. I move them to the dining room table to finish drying.

 

And now I wonder if the indoor humidity may have been a factor.

 

 

Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN

 

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of William Dale
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2022 12:02 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Finish issues

 

Eric, 

     You mentioned humidity and garage in your post. Is there any chance your garage is masonry in construct? I had this same issue pop up on two
cars I was working on in the past, at the same time. I felt that high humidity was the culprit. As you know living on the east it plagues us. My home, the main part is two foot thick stone walls, I work outside, so I’m one not to run the A/C in the summer, and this was the time frame in which I did decal these cars. Now, to your credit, patience prevailed, I on the other hand was off to the grit blast cabinet and started over. Now, I should mention I use a wide variety of paints, mostly Tru-Color, a few acrylics, and Scalecoat to round it out. That said, I’m not going to point a finger at the type of paint used, more Mother Nature.

Billy


Eric Hansmann
 

Thanks for the ideas, Mike. I’m not certain how many days the decals dried before the gloss coat was applied. From my photo documentation, the models were painted December 5th. The decals were completed December 14th and the flat coat was applied December 21st. I usually wait a day or so before spraying the gloss coat after the initial car coat is applied. I also wait at least a day after the decal work is done.

 

I do not recall seeing any issues after the gloss coat had dried.

 

 

Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN

 

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mike Clements via groups.io
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2022 3:12 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Finish issues

 

Future will cloud up like that when it gets Micro Sol or Solvaset on it for a while Nelson. It usually (always?) goes away when it dries, even the areas under decals. How long did the Future dry before you put decals on Eric? It is almost like the Micro Set drove the moisture content of the Future up and then the flat coat put those areas over the top and dried from the outside in trapping the moisture. I'm trying to figure this out so I can avoid the same thing!

Mike Clements
Wakefield, MA
nyc65.wordpress.com


Alexander Schneider Jr
 

Another way to remember the Microset / Microsol sequence: Microset is blue - first place. Microsol is red - second place. 


Nelson Moyer
 

I don’t apply a clear gloss over the decals, just go with clear flat or clear semi-gloss for passenger cars. What’s the need for a clear gloss intermediate step?

 

Nelson Moyer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Eric Hansmann
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2022 3:37 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Finish issues

 

I followed the same decal setting steps as Nelson. I may not wick up the excess as much, but I wait until the decal areas are dry before adding more solution. I often need to poke some air holes with a pin before brushing on more solution. These are the steps I’ve used on many models that have been painted with acrylics.

 

Once I’m happy with the decals, then the gloss coat is applied. This might be a day after drying, or more. It depends upon the weather here.

 

I didn’t see any clouding after the gloss coat dried. It was another couple days until the flat coat was applied. I noticed the hazing after the flat coat had dried.

 

How could the flat coat react with anything under the gloss coat?

 

 

Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN

 

 


Bruce Smith
 

Nelson,


Some folks across many modeling disciplines, but especially in the military modelers feel that covering a decal with a similar finish to what is underneath it, in this case future (gloss) does a better job hiding the edges. I am supportive of this, as I have tried it both ways, and honestly, I do think that a better looking finish results. However would also admit that the difference is slight and I do not always end up doing it that way.

 

Regards,

Bruce Smith

Auburn, AL

 

From: <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Nelson Moyer <npmoyer@...>
Reply-To: "main@RealSTMFC.groups.io" <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Date: Monday, January 24, 2022 at 3:57 PM
To: "main@RealSTMFC.groups.io" <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: [EXT] Re: [RealSTMFC] Finish issues

 

CAUTION: Email Originated Outside of Auburn.

I don’t apply a clear gloss over the decals, just go with clear flat or clear semi-gloss for passenger cars. What’s the need for a clear gloss intermediate step?

 

Nelson Moyer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Eric Hansmann
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2022 3:37 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Finish issues

 

I followed the same decal setting steps as Nelson. I may not wick up the excess as much, but I wait until the decal areas are dry before adding more solution. I often need to poke some air holes with a pin before brushing on more solution. These are the steps I’ve used on many models that have been painted with acrylics.

 

Once I’m happy with the decals, then the gloss coat is applied. This might be a day after drying, or more. It depends upon the weather here.

 

I didn’t see any clouding after the gloss coat dried. It was another couple days until the flat coat was applied. I noticed the hazing after the flat coat had dried.

 

How could the flat coat react with anything under the gloss coat?

 

 

Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN

 

 


Jim Betz
 

  As far as I'm concerned Eric is "on to something here".  Letting the model fully dry
between 'layers' is essential (at least to me).  It even allows you to mix finish
products in ways that others will tell "never apply Y on top of/after X".  I have
successfully used acrylics, lacquers, enamels, decal setting solutions, and
weathering products ... one after the other - but never right after.  I normally
let the model dry at least 24 to 48 hours before changing products.  If I need
(want) to apply the same product then the "dry to the sniff" test is sufficient.
                                                                             - Jim in the PNW 


Mark Vinski
 

Putting gloss coat over decals seals the edges of the decal and prevents the flat finish or weathering from building up around the edges. It also makes the surface of the decal the same as the rest of the model so the final finish will be uniform.
Mark Vinski


Douglas Harding
 

Question? What if it’s a chemical reaction, but not with the things you are using or your process? You say you are painting in an open garage. So anything in the air could be settling on your models at any time during the painting/decaling process. We have humidity issues in Iowa certain times of the year, reason I run a dehumidifier and the AC all summer, no open windows, and vent my paint booth outside. We also have something called “chemical drift” which can occur every time a farmer or neighbor is spraying chemicals on their fields, flowers or trees. Esp prevalent on windy days. Farmers have been sued because of ‘drift”. Crop dusting with airplanes is the worse. We also have problems in some cities with major industries that spue lots of toxic pollutants in the air. Even coal ash or corn chaff can be a problem.

 

I have a table saw and others tools that are partially covered with a thick rust coating after sitting in a garage in rural Iowa. Not everything in the garage was rusting, just things sitting in a certain corner. Figured some sort of a spray or chemical drifted in and settled things that were not covered.

 

So is it possible something in the outside has settled on your model at some step through the paint/decal cycles?

 

You are doing everything to control the process, except controlling the air in which you are working. You wash the model, you wear gloves to avoid skin oils, you use distilled water for decals. You are controlling everything to avoid contaminants, except the air.

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Eric Hansmann
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2022 3:52 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Finish issues

 

Thanks for the ideas, Mike. I’m not certain how many days the decals dried before the gloss coat was applied. From my photo documentation, the models were painted December 5th. The decals were completed December 14th and the flat coat was applied December 21st. I usually wait a day or so before spraying the gloss coat after the initial car coat is applied. I also wait at least a day after the decal work is done.

 

I do not recall seeing any issues after the gloss coat had dried.

 

 

Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN

 

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mike Clements via groups.io
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2022 3:12 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Finish issues

 

Future will cloud up like that when it gets Micro Sol or Solvaset on it for a while Nelson. It usually (always?) goes away when it dries, even the areas under decals. How long did the Future dry before you put decals on Eric? It is almost like the Micro Set drove the moisture content of the Future up and then the flat coat put those areas over the top and dried from the outside in trapping the moisture. I'm trying to figure this out so I can avoid the same thing!

Mike Clements
Wakefield, MA
nyc65.wordpress.com