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Grain door lumber size
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I’ve somehow misplaced my softcover book on the grain industry shipping by rail and looking for what size lumber was used for grain doors. Any suggestions?
 -- Charlie Duckworth Omaha, Ne. |
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steve_wintner
Oughta be able to scale off of that photo if you know the door height. To my surprise that looks very wide, 10 inches maybe? I'm seeing 9 boards and not all the same width but if you have a higher quality image you should be able to estimate.
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From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Charlie Duckworth
Sent: Friday, March 25, 2022 4:13 PM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: [RealSTMFC] Grain door lumber size
I’ve somehow misplaced my softcover book on the grain industry shipping by rail and looking for what size lumber was used for grain doors. Any suggestions? |
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Dennis Storzek <dennis@...>
If I recall, the standard WWIB (Western Weighing & Inspection Bureau) grain doors were panels a nominal 16" wide x 6'-6" long made of two layers of nominal 1" boards nailed together. These could be any combination of board widths, two 1x8, two 1x6 and a 1x4, or four 1x4. The picture of men installing grain doors at this web page: http://prototopics.blogspot.com/2019/01/shipping-grain-by-box-car-and-grain.html shows the panels well. However, individual boards were used sometimes, as the GN car appears to have.
Dennis Storzek |
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Thanks for everyone’s help. I’m planning on having a couple coopered boxcars by one of my grain elevators and as a load is pulled one of the coopered cars will be spotted in its place for loading.
-- Charlie Duckworth Omaha, Ne. |
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Alex Huff
While switching in New Orleans in 1973-1975, I saw the tail end of 40' boxcars in grain service. The TP=MP Term. RR of N.O. switched one export elevator. There was no attempt made to preserve wooden grain doors. Boxcars were shoved on spot by the elevator's Alco switcher and after being manually unlatched, the boxcar door was slid open with a powered cable. Then a hydraulic powered "foot" swung down from its pivot above the doorway, smashing through the boards (or Signode brand paper grain doors). The show wasn't over. The "spot"was a hydraulic tilt table, At either end, a hydraulic arm swung up from between the rails, pushing against the boxcar's couplers. The table then lifted and tilted the car as grain began to flow through the doorway. After reaching its maximum lift, the tilted car was lifted at one end, then the other so the grain all came out of the car.
Alex Huff, who also watched a nominal 100 car train of brand new, dark green CNW 100T covered hoppers roll into the Avondale yard. |
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I was working in the Mopac’s station department in 1977 and remember the Signode paper grain door salesman calling on us to buy the doors for coopering (the railroad supplied the doors and car seals at the time). About the only boxcars being used for grain loading were those destined to Mexico as I was told their some of the consignees weren’t able to unload covered hoppers at that time. On Sat, Mar 26, 2022 at 8:59 AM Alex Huff <dsrc512@...> wrote: While switching in New Orleans in 1973-1975, I saw the tail end of 40' boxcars in grain service. The TP=MP Term. RR of N.O. switched one export elevator. There was no attempt made to preserve wooden grain doors. Boxcars were shoved on spot by the elevator's Alco switcher and after being manually unlatched, the boxcar door was slid open with a powered cable. Then a hydraulic powered "foot" swung down from its pivot above the doorway, smashing through the boards (or Signode brand paper grain doors). The show wasn't over. The "spot"was a hydraulic tilt table, At either end, a hydraulic arm swung up from between the rails, pushing against the boxcar's couplers. The table then lifted and tilted the car as grain began to flow through the doorway. After reaching its maximum lift, the tilted car was lifted at one end, then the other so the grain all came out of the car. --
Charlie Duckworth Omaha, Ne. |
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Dennis Storzek <dennis@...>
On Sat, Mar 26, 2022 at 06:59 AM, Alex Huff wrote:
While switching in New Orleans in 1973-1975, I saw the tail end of 40' boxcars in grain service. The TP=MP Term. RR of N.O. switched one export elevator. There was no attempt made to preserve wooden grain doors.That's because by that time the railroads had decided that it was cheaper to supply the Signode "paper" grain doors rather than pay to collect, repair, and cycle them back to the shippers. As Charlie said, the railroads were responsible for supplying the grain doors, this dates back to the nineteenth century. The Car Builder's Dictionaries of that period show several designs of removable grain doors, normally attached to the car with a chain, that were likely always in the way when loading other freight. The railroads eventually gave that up, and organized associations to manage removable grain doors. I knew a gentleman who worked for the WWIB before WWII who was responsible for something like 25 or 30 thousand of the things; collection, re[air, and distribution to shipping stations. When I started volunteering at the Illinois Railway Museum in early 1970, I eventually had to make the pilgrimage to Marengo to view the former Elgin & Belvidere shops, still the home of Arnold Engineering. The former interchange track from the C&NW was sill connected, and on this track was an ancient boxcar half full of grain doors. The elevator by the Marengo depot about four blocks away didn't have much trackage, and I suspect they coopered cars here. The boxcar remained there another year or two, and then was gone. It points out that grain doors can add another traffic flow to a layout, either as full carloads or a LCL car that distributes them to each station that serves an elevator. Dennis Storzek |
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Lyle Hetsler commented: “I worked as a switchman in Neebing Ontario. They were often bundled up and left hanging out the door. When the empties were pulled slowly by the grain door shack they were taken out of the car and deposited in a bin. At the shack they would recycle the lumber and toss the card board.” Bob Chaparro Hemet, CA |
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Robert Stafford commented: “I worked BN (exCBQ) Agent/Operator positions in Western Nebraska and Colorado. These were all small-town agencies. The agents talked with their elevators about the number of boxcar shipments they forecast loading out the coming year. From this information, an order for grain doors was placed with the storehouse in Lincoln, NE for the upcoming harvest season. One boxcar of grain doors for the year was shipped to each station if the order was large enough to warrant the full 40ft boxcar. Often times the grain doors for several stations were combined into a car going to several stations in the same area as a stop-off car. The boxcar was spotted on the house track at each agency. The local elevators came and unloaded their share of the doors from the boxcar then the car. The agent kept track of how many doors each elevator took. If not watched they would often take more than their allotment. After everyone picked up their grain doors the car was billed out to the next station as non-revenue company material. I am sure the larger elevators may have received an entire boxcar or more loaded with grain doors. This would be a one-time shipment for the season, not something that was shipped a few at a time. I have no memories of any grain doors being stored at the agencies.”
Mark Rickert commented: “It need not be boxcars either. The Rock Island had some baggage cars that were surplus stenciled for grain door loading. I have in my collection a pad of forms from the IC tracking not only the grain doors but the nails used to install them. If you want realistic operation have your operators figure out how many doors and nails they used in a day, document it, then have the traffic manager figure out from the totals where to distribute kegs/boxes of nails and grain door planks.” |
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william darnaby
Many years ago on this list...way back when Tim Gilbert was still around...I posted data from the late Don Daily (retired from the NKP/N&W/NS) that described shipments from the soy bean processing plant served by the NKP in Frankfort, IN. Included in the outbound car movements were boxcars that contained used grain doors being sent back to the owner railroads. For example, an empty PRR car that had come in loaded with beans would be returned to the PRR via the PRR interchange in town with whatever loose PRR owned grain doors the plant had collected over some period of time. Bill Darnaby |
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Guy Wilber
Bob Chaparro wrote:
"Robert Stafford commented:
“I worked BN (exCBQ) Agent/Operator positions in Western Nebraska and Colorado. These were all small-town agencies. The agents talked with their elevators about the number of boxcar shipments they forecast loading out the coming year. From this information, an order for grain doors was placed with the storehouse in Lincoln, NE for the upcoming harvest season. One boxcar of grain doors for the year was shipped to each station if the order was large enough to warrant the full 40ft boxcar. Often times the grain doors for several stations were combined into a car going to several stations in the same area as a stop-off car. The boxcar was spotted on the house track at each agency. The local elevators came and unloaded their share of the doors from the boxcar then the car. The agent kept track of how many doors each elevator took. If not watched they would often take more than their allotment. After everyone picked up their grain doors the car was billed out to the next station as non-revenue company material.
I am sure the larger elevators may have received an entire boxcar or more loaded with grain doors. This would be a one-time shipment for the season, not something that was shipped a few at a time. I have no memories of any grain doors being stored at the agencies.”
Is Robert referencing wood grain doors or Signode type paper doors? What year(s)?
Guy Wilber
Reno Nevada
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I thought the attraction of the Signode doors was they were disposable? On 3/28/2022 1:45 PM, Guy Wilber via groups.io wrote:
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Tim O'Connor Sterling, Massachusetts |
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Richard Wilkens
At Wishram, WA on the Spokane, Portland & Seattle Ry. the location had limited housing and the railway would lease property to employees to erect housing. Most of these houses were built with whatever could be obtained and quite a few were built out of grain doors.
Rich Wilkens |
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