PFE VS SANTA FE ORANGE
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Tony Thompson
Steve SANDIFER wrote:
I just checked the Pantone 151-C chip against the PFE standard orange chip. They are quite close, so I guess Richard was right in saying that very thing. I would not have thought so from what I‘ve heard from most Santa Fe modelers over the years. |
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which IMO is a good reason to use a faded color that looks as if it is sunlit, under indoor lights :-) On 6/27/2022 6:01 PM, Steve SANDIFER wrote:
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Tim O'Connor Sterling, Massachusetts |
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Nelson Moyer
The early version is the CMYK chip I posted earlier.
Nelson Moyer
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Steve SANDIFER
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2022 6:03 PM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] PFE VS SANTA FE ORANGE
The latest Santa Fe Painting and Lettering Guide says:
Reefer Orange (early) 0-43-87-0 PMS 151C
Reefer Orange (late) (after 1956) 0-60-94-0 PMS 158C
J. Stephen Sandifer
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Nelson Moyer
This reefer looks much the same color as those I’ve seen painted with Accupaint Harvest Yellow and the photos Bill Pardie posted. I’m going to color sample your reefer and see how it matches the other colors on my chip file.
Nelson Moyer
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Steve SANDIFER
I assume folks realize that ATSF changed their reefer color in 1956 from the yellow orange to a brighter orange. Here is a photo of the original yellow on an Intermountain ice reefer and the color drift card for the new color which Rapido is using on their RR-56 project.
J. Stephen Sandifer
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Steve SANDIFER
The latest Santa Fe Painting and Lettering Guide says:
Reefer Orange (early) 0-43-87-0 PMS 151C
Reefer Orange (late) (after 1956) 0-60-94-0 PMS 158C
J. Stephen Sandifer
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Nelson Moyer
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2022 5:24 PM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] PFE VS SANTA FE ORANGE
This reefer looks much the same color as those I’ve seen painted with Accupaint Harvest Yellow and the photos Bill Pardie posted. I’m going to color sample your reefer and see how it matches the other colors on my chip file.
Nelson Moyer
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Steve SANDIFER
I assume folks realize that ATSF changed their reefer color in 1956 from the yellow orange to a brighter orange. Here is a photo of the original yellow on an Intermountain ice reefer and the color drift card for the new color which Rapido is using on their RR-56 project.
J. Stephen Sandifer
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Nelson Moyer
This reefer looks much the same color as those I’ve seen painted with Accupaint Harvest Yellow and the photos Bill Pardie posted. I’m going to color sample your reefer and see how it matches the other colors on my chip file.
Nelson Moyer
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Steve SANDIFER
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2022 5:01 PM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] PFE VS SANTA FE ORANGE
I assume folks realize that ATSF changed their reefer color in 1956 from the yellow orange to a brighter orange. Here is a photo of the original yellow on an Intermountain ice reefer and the color drift card for the new color which Rapido is using on their RR-56 project.
J. Stephen Sandifer
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Allan Smith
Attached are some photos I took of ATSF reefers in a field south of Amarillo in 2009. Notice the difference between the sides and the doors. Al Smith Sonora CA
On Monday, June 27, 2022 at 03:01:22 PM PDT, Steve SANDIFER <steve.sandifer@...> wrote:
I assume folks realize that ATSF changed their reefer color in 1956 from the yellow orange to a brighter orange. Here is a photo of the original yellow on an Intermountain ice reefer and the color drift card for the new color which Rapido is using on their RR-56 project.
J. Stephen Sandifer
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bob Chaparro via groups.io
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2022 10:46 AM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] PFE VS SANTA FE ORANGE
Very late in their careers, some of the Santa Fe's ice bunker reefers were painted the same orange usually associated with their later mechanical reefers. Bob Chaparro Moderator Railroad Citrus Industry Modeling Group https://groups.io/g/RailroadCitrusIndustryModelingGroup .JPG)
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Steve SANDIFER
I assume folks realize that ATSF changed their reefer color in 1956 from the yellow orange to a brighter orange. Here is a photo of the original yellow on an Intermountain ice reefer and the color drift card for the new color which Rapido is using on their RR-56 project.
J. Stephen Sandifer
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bob Chaparro via groups.io
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2022 10:46 AM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] PFE VS SANTA FE ORANGE
Very late in their careers, some of the Santa Fe's ice bunker reefers were painted the same orange usually associated with their later mechanical reefers. Bob Chaparro Moderator Railroad Citrus Industry Modeling Group https://groups.io/g/RailroadCitrusIndustryModelingGroup 
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Nelson Moyer
I didn’t get into model railroading until after Accupaint went away, so I don’t have any point of comparison. I’ve pretty much settled on four of the fade colors on the attachment I posted earlier. If anyone wants to look at the dots and offer suggestions, I’m open to change.
Nelson Moyer
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Tim O'Connor
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2022 4:00 PM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] PFE VS SANTA FE ORANGE
Nelson
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Nelson
I have only used Accupaint MEC Harvest Yellow so I can't vouch for any of the others. Accupaint never varies, in my experiences with it. To me, the color looks like SFRD color that has faded a bit. For a brand new car, I might add something like a few drops of CN orange (the really bright orange) and maybe a drop or two of a red color. When I painted PFE, I mixed colors to match the plates in the PFE book, and I do my mixing under 300W (LED equivalent) 5000K lamps. :-D Tim O'Connor On 6/27/2022 4:16 PM, Nelson Moyer wrote:
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Tim O'Connor Sterling, Massachusetts |
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Nelson Moyer
I think Harvest Yellow color depends on manufactures and data of manufacture. The currently available Harvest Yellow seem too yellow to me. This reminds me of Sunshine instructions for reefers where sometimes the color recommendation was pumpkin yellow and sometimes pumpkin orange. So which is it? Pumpkins don’t fade or change color, so pumpkin color is pumpkin color, whether you call it yellow or orange.
Nelson Moyer
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Tim O'Connor
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2022 11:25 AM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] PFE VS SANTA FE ORANGE
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Tony
An evasion. :-D Here is a photo I took indoors with a strong incandescent light source. https://www.flickr.com/photos/timboconnor/13252874824/ If you saw this car in daylight, you would say it's another color. If you saw it in fluorescent light, you'd call it another color. I actually thought I had painted this car to be much too dark and that is how it looks under normal, weak indoor lights. So I was surprised by the results after I shot this photo! Anywho, here is what Richard Hendrickson wrote in May 2008. ============================================== Ed, in the few surviving color photos from the late '40s and early '50s that show numerous SFRD cars in the same train or yard, color varies widely, not because the cars were painted differently but because of the usual fading, weathering, and accumulations of grime. The paint used on the sides of SFRD colors MAY have been lighter and more yellow in the 1920s, but it was essentially the same yellow- orange on all cars from the mid-1930s through the 1950s. With the adoption of the giant herald stenciling scheme beginning in 1959, the color seems to have shifted to a more orange shade, but that perception depends on the slides/movies you're looking at, and - of course - color film reproduction was/is notoriously unreliable as a guide to actual colors. During the period that's relevant to most subscribers to this list, the Santa Fe did not change the color of the paint used on reefer sides (aside from the usual minor variations from one batch of paint to another). Richard Hendrickson On 6/27/2022 3:43 PM, Tony Thompson wrote:
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Tim O'Connor Sterling, Massachusetts |
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Nelson Moyer
I concur. I mixed Scalecoat II orange to yellow at 4:1 and was shocked at how orange it was. I mixed 3:1, 2:1, 1:1 and all were still too orange to my eye. I then mixed 1:2 and 1:3 orange to yellow, and 1:3 came closest to the ATSF color guide CMYK color recommendation. I didn't do 1:4, so I'll mix that to see hour it looks, as it may be a good fade mix. That's a perfect example for not blindly following earlier recommendations without verification.
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Nelson Moyer -----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Pierre Oliver Sent: Monday, June 27, 2022 2:31 PM To: main@realstmfc.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] PFE VS SANTA FE ORANGE That mix was mentioned in the SFRD reefer book as well However since that was written the recipes at Scalecoat changed I found that reversing the ratios gave the desired results Pierre Oliver www.elgincarshops.com www.yarmouthmodelworks.com |
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Tony Thompson
I don’t know about you, Tim, but my layout is indoors. Tony |
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And again, a poorly lit model. Take that car into bright sunlight, and then tell me what color it is. :-) On 6/27/2022 2:42 PM, Tony Thompson wrote: --
Tim O'Connor Sterling, Massachusetts |
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Pierre Oliver
That mix was mentioned in the SFRD reefer book as well
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However since that was written the recipes at Scalecoat changed I found that reversing the ratios gave the desired results Pierre Oliver www.elgincarshops.com www.yarmouthmodelworks.com On Jun 27, 2022, at 3:29 PM, Tony Thompson <tony@...> wrote: |
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Tony Thompson
Fenton Wells wrote:Richard’s view was that the SFRD color was pretty consistent from about 1930 through the late 1950s. His starting point was Scalecoat, 4 parts Reefer Orange and one part Reefer Yellow, a formula from Bill Messecar. He sometimes faded it for older cars, using white. As he observed, “Reefer Orange” is an odd color, not really like any North American reefer, closer to International Orange. But you can mix with it. Tony Thompson tony@... |
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Thanks for the photos of Richard’s models Tony.
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I don’t have a memory of Richard sharing a lot of photos on email lists like this; my recollection was about the help he provided with model and prototype information - mostly helping someone else’s project. So it's just awesome that you can share these images. They speak to me - saying so much about the kind of modelling I want to strive for. Rob On Jun 27, 2022, at 11:50 AM, Tony Thompson <tony@...> wrote: For completeness, I should mention that the bulk of Richard’s SFRD models were pretty dirty, not like the one I just showed. Below is a more typical example of his view of SFRD appearance. Here Jerry Michel’s comment is VERY relevant.
I should also mention that he worked with Athearn when they did the SFRD frozen food car, Rr-30, IIRC, and it is certainly a light orange. <RR-27.jpg>
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Thanks Tony, and I apologise for coming in late on this but do you know what color Richard used for the Santa Fe reefers? I have huge respect for his modeling and would love to know his choice of color. Thanks Fenton On Mon, Jun 27, 2022 at 2:50 PM Tony Thompson <tony@...> wrote:
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Tony Thompson
For completeness, I should mention that the bulk of Richard’s SFRD models were pretty dirty, not like the one I just showed. Below is a more typical example of his view of SFRD appearance. Here Jerry Michel’s comment is VERY relevant.
I should also mention that he worked with Athearn when they did the SFRD frozen food car, Rr-30, IIRC, and it is certainly a light orange.  |
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Tony Thompson
Attached is a photo of one of Richard’s cars, and it certainly isn’t Harvest Yellow — at least, not the jar I have of that color.
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