Northern Pacific Automobile Box Car NP 8029


Richard Wilkens
 

Northern Pacific Automobile Box Car NP 8029, built by Pacific Car & Foundry October 1929. Pacific Northwest Railroad Archive Collection.

Rich Wilkens


Robert kirkham
 

Interesting car and interesting what the photos reveal about it.   I was struck by the heavy demarcation between boards the side sheathing of this car.   The three quarter angle view is particularly revealing as I think it shows that the edges of the boards were bevelled - similar to some vertical siding.  I'd be interested to know if this is unusual for NP cars, or not.

Rob Kirkham 


radiodial868
 

That is one interesting looking car. From the A end tiny lumber door to the B end Miner hand brake and everything in between.  NP lived in its own world.
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-------------------
RJ Dial

Mendocino, CA


Bob Chaparro
 

Notice the "Transfer Cards" stencil.
Bob Chaparro
Hemet, CA


Gene Deimling
 

Rob
You might be reading a bit too much into the builder's photo.  The pictures I have seen including the one attached suggest traditional tongue and groove siding without any groove.  
I included a portion of the builder's drawing showing the cross section of the wood sheathing.  It definitelyshows no groove.

Gene Deimling


Robert kirkham
 

Fair points Gene.  I note the vertical edges of lettering on the car side in the builders photo do not waiver at the supposed beveled board edges, so it must only be an odd lighting situation?  

Rob  

  

On Jul 18, 2022, at 12:24 PM, Gene Deimling <proto48@...> wrote:

Rob
You might be reading a bit too much into the builder's photo.  The pictures I have seen including the one attached suggest traditional tongue and groove siding without any groove.  
I included a portion of the builder's drawing showing the cross section of the wood sheathing.  It definitelyshows no groove.

Gene Deimling
<NP 8070 - WWANFC-01-172.jpg><NP 8000-8199 selected.jpg>


Tim O'Connor
 


I am confused. The drawing definitely shows tongue-in-groove (interlocking) boards. Just above
where it says "Section Through Side Plate".

Are you guys referring instead to "beaded" siding, which the NP used now and then ?


On 7/18/2022 3:24 PM, Gene Deimling wrote:

Rob
You might be reading a bit too much into the builder's photo.  The pictures I have seen including the one attached suggest traditional tongue and groove siding without any groove.  
I included a portion of the builder's drawing showing the cross section of the wood sheathing.  It definitelyshows no groove.

Gene Deimling

Attachments:



--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Robert kirkham
 

I'm not sure if it is beaded siding or something else.  Describing what I see in the builders photo, I'd say the appearance is something like the vertical siding with the milled centre groove used on some reefers.  (Is that the kind of beaded siding you're referring to Tim?). In any event, the drawing and the in-service photo don't show these characteristics.  Changed siding over time wouldn't surprise anyone, but the drawing throws that notion into question.  Meanwhile, closer scrutiny of the car side lettering in the 3/4 angle shot does not have subtle dips and jogs as one might expect with a "v" groove pattern. 

Rob 


Dave Parker
 

Just a reminder that the MCB/ARA/AAR specifications for lumber siding were quite specific (and consistent from the teens [at least] to the end of composite car construction): 

-  single-sheathed cars got square-edged T&G siding, 6 inches overall width, with 5.25" exposed
-  double-sheathed cars got V-grooved T&G siding with a 3.25" exposure OR 5.25" with a V-groove (not a bead) down the center of the plank.

The reasons for this are obvious if you are trying to optimize the siding's ability to direct water way from the car's interior.

The "tightness" of the joints on the SS cars was quite variable, even in builder's photos, and I believe has been discussed here before.
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Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA


Bruce Smith
 

Rob,

It is definitely plain tongue and groove. Some people are thinking of V or V and Center V siding, but this car is not that type of siding. While there is an occasional and variable small reveal between boards, the reveal is neither consistent, nor does it reflect to a change of height on the board side. In other words, what I see is a flat board, a slight reveal, and a flat board. That to me is tongue and groove with some slight variation in the milling of the board, or the tongue/groove, providing minor variability in the alignment of the boards.

Regards,
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


Dennis Storzek <dennis@...>
 

On Mon, Jul 18, 2022 at 05:45 PM, Bruce Smith wrote:
...what I see is a flat board, a slight reveal, and a flat board. That to me is tongue and groove with some slight variation in the milling of the board, or the tongue/groove, providing minor variability in the alignment of the boards.

I concur. Square edge boards rarely lay up perfectly even, which is the whole reason for the beveled corners that make a visible V, or other decorative bead. The 3/4 view has really strong highlights; and these minute edges are showing all out of proportion to their size. One of the reasons that model manufacturers tend to exaggerate this feature; with our flat layout lighting this feature would simply disappear.

Dennis Storzek


Richard Townsend
 


Tim O'Connor
 


Yes, you have it right about the beaded siding.

By "V" groove are you talking about beveled edges of the boards so that when they are
joined together there is a shallow gap between them?

Because, yeah, the drawing does not show it, because it was never a style that would be
used on horizontal wood sheathing, which was tight fitting and shed water. Any gaps would
fill with dirt and collect moisture. A large number of models have unrealistic wood sides that
exaggerate the boards.

Attached a photo of what new horizontal sheathing usually looks like.



On 7/18/2022 5:28 PM, Robert kirkham wrote:

I'm not sure if it is beaded siding or something else.  Describing what I see in the builders photo, I'd say the appearance is something like the vertical siding with the milled centre groove used on some reefers.  (Is that the kind of beaded siding you're referring to Tim?). In any event, the drawing and the in-service photo don't show these characteristics.  Changed siding over time wouldn't surprise anyone, but the drawing throws that notion into question.  Meanwhile, closer scrutiny of the car side lettering in the 3/4 angle shot does not have subtle dips and jogs as one might expect with a "v" groove pattern. 

Rob
_._,_._,_

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Dennis Storzek <dennis@...>
 

On Tue, Jul 19, 2022 at 07:52 AM, Tim O'Connor wrote:
Attached a photo of what new horizontal sheathing usually looks like.
But Tim, the photo of NP 8029 is also of a new car. The only difference is 1) the gloss level of the paint, 2) the angle of the lighting. I have often suspected that some builders photos were taken of cars specially painted for the photo; most obvious in the photos of cars painted gray with black lettering, but why not matte finish to best show off the design features without the distracting highlights?


Dennis Storzek


Tim O'Connor
 


I would simply attribute what I see in the NP builder photo to unevenly planed boards i.e.
the boards are not exactly perfectly planed to the same thicknesses. With gloss paint, even a
tiny difference can become more obvious because of the reflectivity of the surface. This is
apparent in builder photos people think is "wavy" steel, and models of them with mumps... :-)


On 7/19/2022 3:01 PM, Dennis Storzek wrote:

On Tue, Jul 19, 2022 at 07:52 AM, Tim O'Connor wrote:
Attached a photo of what new horizontal sheathing usually looks like.
But Tim, the photo of NP 8029 is also of a new car. The only difference is 1) the gloss level of the paint, 2) the angle of the lighting. I have often suspected that some builders photos were taken of cars specially painted for the photo; most obvious in the photos of cars painted gray with black lettering, but why not matte finish to best show off the design features without the distracting highlights?


Dennis Storzek

Attachments:



--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Dennis Storzek <dennis@...>
 

On Tue, Jul 19, 2022 at 12:28 PM, Tim O'Connor wrote:
With gloss paint, even a
tiny difference can become more obvious because of the reflectivity of the surface. This is
apparent in builder photos people think is "wavy" steel, and models of them with mumps... :-)
Done for the same reason... If done truly to scale, it would never show under our flat layout lighting.

Dennis Storzek


Bruce Smith
 

Dennis, Tim,

 

I agree that the flat paint on the EP&SW car photo definitely hides the contrast. And frankly there are aspects of the EP&SW photo that make me think that the car sides might have been include in the obvious retouching of this photo, as well (“photoshopped” in the days when that was done with cardboard and an airbrush).


Regards,

Bruce Smith

Auburn, AL

 

From: <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Dennis Storzek <dennis@...>
Reply-To: "main@RealSTMFC.groups.io" <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Date: Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 2:01 PM
To: "main@RealSTMFC.groups.io" <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: [EXT] Re: [RealSTMFC] Northern Pacific Automobile Box Car NP 8029

 

CAUTION: Email Originated Outside of Auburn.

On Tue, Jul 19, 2022 at 07:52 AM, Tim O'Connor wrote:

Attached a photo of what new horizontal sheathing usually looks like.

But Tim, the photo of NP 8029 is also of a new car. The only difference is 1) the gloss level of the paint, 2) the angle of the lighting. I have often suspected that some builders photos were taken of cars specially painted for the photo; most obvious in the photos of cars painted gray with black lettering, but why not matte finish to best show off the design features without the distracting highlights?


Dennis Storzek


np328
 

    These 1929 built NP cars were part of the building rush to have cars available that could be positioned empty just outside of urban Detroit (as it existed at the time) so that these would be readily available to the auto makers for loading. These did have type "E" Evans auto loaders gear installed. The auto builders simply took suitable available and equipped boxcars on a first come basis so having cars in waiting was the best way to secure a load. However, in paying homage to the bread-and-butter traffic of the NP, end lumber doors are in place. 

    The cars are also 10 ft 6 inches of interior height, greater than the prior 50 ft 6000 series of 1923 (built to an SP design in which using the assembly jigs of the SP design allowed the NP cars to leapfrog up the GACC build schedule by almost a year.) The NP 6000 series had a 10 ft interior.  Auto were growing longer year by year in the 1920s and this translated into a few new inches of height needed to handle this length when the auto were loaded using the various Evans gear.  

      One important note concerning the original builders photos: On February 17th, 1944; a directive came from the NP's Superintendent of Car Department, F G Moody that the A and B seen to the left of the side doors would be replaced by the letters L and R. (3 +1/2 inch high) The location of the letters to remain in the same location.   Facing the "B" end, left and right sides are found. 
For many here modeling after 1944, the L and R letting at the sides would be correct.  NP maintained their equipment to a higher standard than most railroads and cars were generally repainted equipment every 7 years on the average, so one could have the original paint up to perhaps 1951.                                                                    James Dick - Roseville, MN 


Ted Larson
 

Another consideration is slight warping of the boards which would create slight offset of the horizontal joints.  




--
Ted Larson
Trainweb.org/MHRR   ---   GN in 1965   ---   NASG.org 


Daniel A. Mitchell
 

That’s very true. We are talking wood construction here. Wood is NOT stable. It expands, contracts, bends, warps, twists, and does all manner of distortions … and every board is different. One could very carefully match every board, planing, sanding, jointing, etc. (FAR more than was ever done in actual car construction), and produce a near-perfect car side. In a few days everything would be out-of-whack again due to changes in humidity and temperature. It’s just not stable. And it would all keep changing every few days for the life of the car.

And no steel frame can totally prevent this. Resist, yes ... prevent, no. Large scale (carside) warps are unlikely since all the boards warp randomly.

Actually, the older the car gets the less it would keep changing, as the stresses and strains within the wood would gradually relax with age. The most dramatic changes would occur in the car's first year of life. The distortions were already starting as the car was rolled out of the builder’s shop.

Dan Mitchell
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On Jul 19, 2022, at 9:59 PM, Ted Larson via groups.io <mhrreast@...> wrote:

Another consideration is slight warping of the boards which would create slight offset of the horizontal joints.  




--
Ted Larson
Trainweb.org/MHRR   ---   GN in 1965   ---   NASG.org