WWII oil transport
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Tom Madden
The Ralph Hallock photo collection at the Colorado Railroad Museum contains quite a few photos of wartime oil trains. Two examples attached. Most were taken in 1943 (date not further defined) on either the CNJ/LV/RDG/B&O main line in north central NJ, or on the B&A in Chatham NY. All appear to be of westbound empties. There is also one taken on the B&O at Harpers Ferry WV behind an EM-1 in June 1944. Not a lot of uniformity to the tank cars, except for color.
Tom Madden |
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Someone mentioned Sinclair on the UP in Wyoming. This is CNW's yard serving Standard Oil in Casper Wyoming. These would almost all be UTLX cars. Possibly many of these can be modeled in HO from resin kits. It's from 1948 according to the archive -- appears that there was once a need for a larger yard than it needed in 1948. Or maybe it's seasonal? On 7/18/2022 3:02 PM, Tom Madden via groups.io wrote: The Ralph Hallock photo collection at the Colorado Railroad Museum contains quite a few photos of wartime oil trains. Two examples attached. Most were taken in 1943 (date not further defined) on either the CNJ/LV/RDG/B&O main line in north central NJ, or on the B&A in Chatham NY. All appear to be of westbound empties. There is also one taken on the B&O at Harpers Ferry WV behind an EM-1 in June 1944. Not a lot of uniformity to the tank cars, except for color. --
Tim O'Connor Sterling, Massachusetts |
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George Eichelberger
The Southern Railway group’s archives contain quite a few orders for “MAIN” trains and freight movements. Understandably, most of the specific movement records are on the Southern but all/most of the various ODT bulletins are in the collection. (The bulletin that “trapped” all “western” tank cars east of the Mississippi must have been quite a shock.)
A couple of years ago I attempted find where the ODT archives were located. I wrote the Army Transportation Corp. museum at Ft. Eustis, VA but never received a response. Does anyone know where the ODT files are located? Ike |
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The reason behind those long oil movements by rail in the east during the war years, was due to German submarines lurking off the coast of the USA.
This made the usual shipping of crude oil from Gulf of Mexico ports to refineries on the east coast by coastal tank ships impossible, due heavy losses by torpedoes. Pipelines for transmission of oil overland was limited back then and was vastly expanded after WW II. The railroad brotherhoods were not happy with that. Ed Bommer |
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John Barry
Ike, It depends, NARA San Bruno has ODT records from the San Francisco Field Office. That is where I found the detention report that was the basis of my blog post. Some of the Office of Defense Transportation. Highway Transport Department. Federal Operations Division are in Kansas City. Most of the records should be at the main archive in College Park, MD. https://www.archives.gov/research/guide-fed-records/groups/219.html?_ga=2.208343057.2099560646.1658175892-1167037926.1658175892 is a listing of the holdings in Record Group 219. The collection of ODT bulletins would be a welcome addition to my information sources. Any chance of obtaining PDF copies? John John Barry ATSF North Bay Lines Golden Gates & Fast Freights Lovettsville, VA 707-490-9696
On Monday, July 18, 2022 at 04:01:15 PM EDT, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:
The Southern Railway group’s archives contain quite a few orders for “MAIN” trains and freight movements. Understandably, most of the specific movement records are on the Southern but all/most of the various ODT bulletins are in the collection. (The bulletin that “trapped” all “western” tank cars east of the Mississippi must have been quite a shock.) A couple of years ago I attempted find where the ODT archives were located. I wrote the Army Transportation Corp. museum at Ft. Eustis, VA but never received a response. Does anyone know where the ODT files are located? Ike |
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George Eichelberger
John and everyone:
I do not have a neat “package” that includes all of the ODT bulletins in the SRHA archives but I will work on putting one together. (Please remind me after Collinsville!) Until then, to keep from being put in “bandwidth jail” I have uploaded "ODT Order No. 1” of March 23, 1942 (five pages) and “Amendment No. 1 to General Order O.D.T. No. 1” dated April 30, 1942 (two pages) to Google Drive. The link that should work for everyone is: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1VCX6xyFdfLm-PA5y0OSVQWAu_13zt8pb?usp=sharing Some orders were proceeded by requests for comments or information, others were simply issued. All were subject to amendments and cancellations. Almost every order in the SRHA archives is accompanied by letters and telegrams between Southern and the ODT or internal memos where the railroad was discussing how it would implement or respond to each. ODT orders were in fact “orders”, some were quite sweeping; instructions to halt specific under utilized passenger services and limiting Pullmans to distances over 450 miles are two examples. (The order to halt passenger trains was not subject to State approval and was immediate. When that order was lifted at the end of WWII, and public interest in passenger trains was waining, several State PUCs told the Southern the trains had to be reinstated because they did not approve their discontinuance. The processes and techniques the Southern used to “kill” those trains became the model for many post war passenger train-off petitions.) Ike |
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What a cool picture, Tim. Thanks for sharing.
A couple of interesting things to note, even though car numbers are not legible.
The arrows point to a pair of the 6500 gallon Type X cars that Nelson Moyer has shared his challenge and ultimate triumph building the RCW kit. Immediately adjacent to the nearer X are a 10000 gallon and 6500 gallon car next to one another. The next car to the right is another Type X, probably 8K gallons.
As Bruce has pointed out, these may well be empties waiting in the yard for their turn at the loading platforms.
Steve Hile
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Tim O'Connor
Sent: Monday, July 18, 2022 2:55 PM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] WWII oil transport
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C J Wyatt
The need for tank car trains to the east coast was greatly reduced with the completion of the "Big Inch" Pipeline (petroleum) in August 1943 and the "Little Big Inch" Pipeline (product) in August 1943. Here is a summary:
Big Inch Pipelines of WW II - American Oil & Gas Historical Society (aoghs.org) Jack Wyatt |
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Chuck Soule
The Northern Pacific ran an aviation gasoline train to Seattle during the war. The westbound loaded train was called the "G" Manifest, and the return empties were the "R" Manifest. The train was providing fuel for the Pacific Theater, and the transloading in Seattle took place at Pier 91 - 92 north of the city center. I forget where the trains originated, but I think it was in Oklahoma. If so, they were probably routed on the CB&Q to Billings, then to Seattle on the NP. They were given VERY high priority.
Jim Fredrickson took a photo of the returning "R" Manifest at Easton, WA on April 15, 1944 being pulled by an ABBA set of FT diesels. The photo can be found on the NPRHA website, but the URL is enormous, and I don't know how to use tinyurl to help you. The full link is (heh heh) http://www.nprha.org/Lists/Jim%20Fredrickson%20Integrated%20Photo%20List/Standard%20View.aspx#InplviewHash7f622075-821c-4096-9d5b-cc6f1935e4ae=SortField%3DState-SortDir%3DAsc-FilterField1%3DState-FilterValue1%3DWA-FilterField2%3DStation-FilterValue2%3DEaston If that doesn't work for you, go to NPRHA.org and click on Equipment, then on Steam Locomotive. after that brings up a list of resources, click on Jim Fredrickson photos. Once Jim Fredrickson's page opens up, the fastest way is to type the photo ID into the search box. The ID is JMF02-13748.0 Chuck Soule |
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devansprr
Jack,
"Greatly" is relative. The PA state archives has a selection of daily symbol freight summaries for the PRR during WWII that includes counts of oil trains and how many oil cars passed through Pittsburgh for points east: 5/1/43 - 884 cars in 13 trains Article says pipeline completed to the east coast October 1943. 11/30/43 - 326 cars in 5 trains 5/6/45 - 215 cars in 3 trains What I don't know is whether demand had grown so much that it exceeded pipeline capacity, or if some east coast refineries were not reachable using the "little-inch" pipeline. I am in Lewistown, PA today along that same PRR mainline, and sadly several oil trains have passed today.... With a tonnage that probably exceeds the 11/30/43 total... Dave Evans |
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Gerry Fitzgerald
Hi All, I have given some clinics on this and the WWII USA chemical industry in the past but often received little interest. Maybe another one in the future at an RPM meet as the NMRA clinics tend to draw very small audiences although the C&OHS people were always intrigued. Gerard Gerard J. Fitzgerald Crozet, Virginia |
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Gerry Fitzgerald
Hi,
This is nifty. Thanks for posting this. Gerard Gerard J. Fitzgerald Crozet, Virginia |
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George Eichelberger
Gerard:
Keep trying with your prototype and “historical” clinics…. Around ten years ago, Mike Brock of Cocoa Beach RPM fame, asked if I was interested in doing a clinic at the CCB RPM on a modeling, probably Southern prototype, subject. Although I said I could, I proposed doing a “historic” topic of some sort. Mike and I agreed maybe no one would attend and some that did would leave when they discovered it did not include putting high noses on HO diesels or something similar. It is true that the first few years were not “hot tickets” but more folks attended the following years. One comment I heard/still hear was “I did not think this would be interesting but it certainly was”. I tell people the cross-over between attending prototype and modeling presentations makes both more interesting. The distinction I still see is the difference between “prototype modeling” and “model railroading”. The second group is not particularly interested in prototypes much beyond general information. I see the rise in “prototype modeling” coming from more awareness of the “real thing” and the story and documents that explain why the railroads had that equipment in the first place. (People who bought one of the SRHA Southern Railway 40 or 50 box car books have told me “I don’t need everything you put in those books”. A surprising number came back years later and say “Now I understand how useful that material is.”) As I said, “keep trying”. Bridging the gap between modeling and prototype information is better for everyone. I see people becoming more interested in accurate modeling as information, parts, RTR and car kits become available. Ike PS One way I use to determine where on the "toy train to prototype modeling scale someone is” is how they describe the railroad historical groups. I consider them the best source of data on their railroads…period. When someone says “hysterical societies”, I’d rather be talking to about anyone else. From the first issue to the last, I appreciated what Bob Hundman did with “Mainline Modeler”. The railroad historical groups publish some excellent modeling material but I know I miss articles from groups I am not a member of. I would be very happy to see a commercial magazine like MM be published again. I suggested to Bob years ago that MM could re-run selected HS group articles to expand their audience and provide quality content for the magazine. The existing modeling magazines are important but I expect they have to cater to the larger model train group when they make their editorial decisions. |
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Chris Barkan
Gerry Fitzgerald said, "I have given some clinics on this and the WWII USA chemical industry in the past but often received little interest."
-- and George Eichelberger said, "Keep trying with your prototype and “historical” clinics…."
Gerry, I am with George on this, both in general, and regarding the particular topic you mention, so please keep offering. Assuming that there is at least some RR content (not necessarily modeling), i.e. type of tank cars used, type of rail traffic, etc. I would think it would be of great interest to an RPM event organizer. Chris Barkan Champaign, IL |
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Eric Hansmann
Indeed. I would welcome this presentation for RPM-East next March in metro Pittsburgh.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Eric Hansmann Murfreesboro, TN On Jul 24, 2022, at 11:02 AM, Chris Barkan <cplbarkan@...> wrote:
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Chet
Going back in time to 12/01/01, on message 3721, I posted the cars that were in an oil train interchanged to the Wabash from the PRR.
Chet French Dixon, IL |
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CJ,
I'm not sure I'd use the term "greatly reduced". Here are some numbers:
Daily Deliveries of petroleum to the East Coast (in 1,000s of barrels)
1941 1942 1943 1944 1945
Tankers(A) 1,421 391 160 276 451
Tank Cars 35 627 852 646 504
Pipeline 54 121 267 663 733
(Information from Tim Gilbert, summarizing American Wartime Transportation, by J.R. Rose)
So you can see that, while 1943 was the biggest year, 1944 deliveries still surpass 1942 and were more than 75% of 1943. Tank car deliveries declined further in 1945, but were still just under 60% of the high of 1943. So, while the "big inch" pipeline
helped dramatically. the shipment of petroleum via rail car was still very common throughout the war.
Regards,
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...>
Sent: Friday, July 22, 2022 12:34 AM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> Subject: [EXT] Re: [RealSTMFC] WWII oil transport
Big Inch Pipelines of WW II - American Oil & Gas Historical Society (aoghs.org) Jack Wyatt |
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Gerry Fitzgerald
Hi George,
Thank you for your very gracious, encouraging, and detailed response to my earlier message on clinics. It was very nice and will encourage me to try to give more clinics in the future. Let me further contextualize my earlier message. This may be slightly off topic (?), and hopefully I will be put in the penalty box, but a few additional thoughts about clinics and railroad history, a topic that in all fairness has overlap with this wonderful site.
Model railroad clinics for me can be complicated as I have a Ph.D. in the history of science and technology, and often look and frame my clinics through a historical lens that contextualizes the past a bit differently than many modelers, although I have had more success with the RPM crowd. Giving online clinics through the Hindsight 20/20 on both WWI and water softening technology during the pandemic has been extremely enjoyable as the people watching are very positive and ask informative questions. While I like the NMRA and have been a long time member, giving what I would term a “public history” clinic on model railroad/railroad topics can be problematic, although that is more a reflection of a small vocal minority. And here I am speaking from my own personal experience and other modelers have no doubt had more positive clinic presentation experiences. A number of years ago I gave a clinic at the NMRA national in Atlanta on modeling the American Civil War and talked quite a bit about slavery, which made a small number of people violently angry. Interestingly enough, I got the same response, at an NMRA meet in Pennsylvania so trying to bring a broader historical context to clinics can be problematic regardless of location. In addition, an article I wrote while editing the LDSIG journal on modeling the Jim Crow aspects of railroad operations met with even more vitriol. So doing public history and doing “real history” -as someone once said in a derogatory manner- in the hobby can be frustrating, so these days I just do less except, for a few RPM meets. Marty McGuirk did a wonderful blog post a few years back on select people in audiences who can be less than kind during clinics and that can be discouraging which is worth reading.
Let me also note that I also agree with your position on the various model railroad historical societies and I read a number of their magazines, both online and in paper, and find them invaluable. Years ago I helped out the ACl-SAL online ‘zine and helped edit some of the early articles. While I model the C&O, I love the AT&SF, N&W, and of course the amazing Pennsylvania modeling publications. These publications include just incredible amounts of information, not to mention the models and layouts, all bringing the past to life. The editors and authors all deserve our thanks.
With respect to chemicals, oil, pipeline construction, and railroad operations during WWII, I have given a lengthily clinics on that topic from the perspective of the C&O and maybe will do more on that topic clinic wise in the future. I am also writing a new book on the environmental history of industrialization in the US during World War I and am paying special attention to railroads, the USRA and the War Industries Board, topics that some in model railroad circles may find interesting.
Let me note I very much appreciate many of the posts on this site and have learned quite a bit over the years about the “internal” history of freight car design, construction, and operations. I have what academic historian call an “external” approach to technology -all PhDs have that outlook really because of our training- which as I say looks at the past through a slightly different lens. History is my profession and I love the hobby but it is not always easy to combine the two. But I do my best and will try out some new topics and maybe give some older clinics on railroads and clinics in the future.
For those interested in a short paper that deals very much with freight car operations in NYC during WWI feel free feel free Google “Arcadia,” which is an online journal on the website of The Rachel Carson Center for Environment and Society, which is Munich Germany and this article title “New York Harbor and the Vicious Circle of the Winter of 1917-1918,” Arcadia, (May 2020). A clinic version of this paper was well received earlier by the Hindsight crowd and I may submit a different version to “Classic Trains” later this year.
Sorry for the long message… and if and when I publish a chapter on chemicals, oil and railroads, I will post a link to it here. Thank you very much for your encouragement and all the thoughtful and informative posts.
Stay safe and be well
Gerard |
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The U boat problem finally ended in 1943. That's when the rail numbers turned down. But those two pipelines only reached NY metro not Baltimore or Norfolk or Jacksonville. There were still refineries all over the place hundreds of miles away from a product pipeline that could reach the east coast. But I notice that the TOTAL in 1944 is only very slightly larger than it was in 1941. This makes me think that more oil was being transported on ocean tankers from the Gulf to Europe after 1943 thus slowing down the rate of increase to the US east coast. The numbers also show a sharp decline overall in 1942 that lasted through 1943, indicating that the railroads could not completely make up for the fall off in coastal shipping - Probably due to a shortage of tank cars, at least at first. No wonder the country had gas rationing ! On 7/24/2022 11:39 PM, Bruce Smith wrote:
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Tim O'Connor Sterling, Massachusetts |
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Kenneth Montero
Tim,
It is my understanding that the primary reason for gasoline rationing was not due to a shortage of gasoline, but due to a severe shortage of rubber for tires.
Prior to World War 2, almost all rubber came from Malayan (now Malaysian) rubber plantations. When Japanese forces captured this British colony shortly after Pearl Harbor, that source was cut off. Firestone had rubber plantations in Liberia, but were insufficient as a source of supply, and synthetic rubber capacity was very limited. To avoid running out of rubber, gasoline was rationed and speed limits reduced nationally to 45 MPH (along with rationing rubber tires) to restrict driving and, therefore, extend the life of tires, both already installed on motor vehicles and as replacement as tire wore out.
Others on this list may have more detailed information or corrections. If so, please share with us.
Ken Montero
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