Help identifying a gondola, please
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greg kennelly
In early 1952, the Pacific Great Eastern acquired a group of ten hopper-bottom (GRA) gondolas as shown in the attached photos by the late Bill Hewlett from my collection. In the 1919 Car Builder's Dictionary, I found drawings of a similar drop-bottom gondola from the Bettendorf Corporation which had the same distinctive 4-point star ends. I would very much like to find a drawing of the hopper-bottom (GRA) version. Photographs show that some of the cars were stencilled "GRA-50-4" which might, hopefully, provide a clue as to their origin. They are stencilled as BUILT 1914, I.L. 40'-0", CU. FT. 1825. A search of the Jan 1943 ORER turned up the Santa Fe with a large number of GRA gondolas listed as Caswell dump cars with the same 40'-0" I.L. but only 1710 CU. FT. rather than 1825. Any leads would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks for any assistance. Greg Kennelly 
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Kemal Mumcu
That's an interesting gondola Greg. The Pre-Depression Era Railroad Modellers on FB might be able to help you on this one.
Colin Meikle |
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David
Illinois Central 122038 is a likely candidate.
David Thompson  |
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Ray Breyer
Not IC. They had two groups of early steel gondolas with these ends. Both were off the roster by 1930, and neither have sides or dumping mechanisms that look anything like the PGE car. Ray Breyer Elgin, IL
On Thursday, August 25, 2022 at 08:07:23 PM CDT, David via groups.io <jaydeet2001@...> wrote:
Illinois Central 122038 is a likely candidate.
David Thompson  |
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Ray Breyer
The hive mind there might, so it's worth asking. The only cars I could think of that had these ends were IC cars,and besides having the same ends and eight panels, they're nothing like the PGE car. Ray Breyer Elgin, IL
On Thursday, August 25, 2022 at 08:06:49 PM CDT, Kemal Mumcu via groups.io <kemal_mumcu@...> wrote:
That's an interesting gondola Greg. The Pre-Depression Era Railroad Modellers on FB might be able to help you on this one. Colin Meikle |
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Some years ago, I did some research on the Bettendorf company and presented the clinic a few times. Several people kindly shared photos with me, including John Riddell. Anyway, this looks like what became the PGE car.
Hope this helps.
Steve Hile
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Ray Breyer via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2022 9:07 PM To: main@realstmfc.groups.io; main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Help identifying a gondola, please
The hive mind there might, so it's worth asking.
The only cars I could think of that had these ends were IC cars,and besides having the same ends and eight panels, they're nothing like the PGE car.
Ray Breyer
On Thursday, August 25, 2022 at 08:06:49 PM CDT, Kemal Mumcu via groups.io <kemal_mumcu@...> wrote:
That's an interesting gondola Greg. The Pre-Depression Era Railroad Modellers on FB might be able to help you on this one. |
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Richard Townsend
I wonder if the PGE modified the cars to give the hoper bottoms in place of side dump doors.
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On Aug 25, 2022, at 7:49 PM, Steve and Barb Hile <shile@...> wrote:
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In a 1917 ORER, T&NO 40900-40999 are listed as both MWB and HD – Gond. Convertible St’l
In fact, here is the next slide in the deck
Steve Hile
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Richard Townsend via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2022 11:12 PM To: main@realstmfc.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Help identifying a gondola, please
I wonder if the PGE modified the cars to give the hoper bottoms in place of side dump doors.
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greg kennelly
Colin and David,
Thanks for the suggestions. I could not find that IC car (by that number at least) in either my 1943 or 1953 ORERs. I found lots of GS and GB IC cars but no GRA. The IC car shows what looks like 6 drop door panels per side while the cars that came to the PGE had 4 hoppers per side. I will try contacting the Pre-Depression Era Railroad Modellers. Greg Kennelly -- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software. www.avg.com |
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greg kennelly
Many thanks, Steve.
I missed those in my search of the ORERs as I was looking for mech. desig. GRA while those are listed as MWB despite having been stencilled "GRA-50-4". The dimensions in the 1943 ORER match the late BIll Hewlett's August 27, 1954 measurements of PGE 253 very well, including a 19'-0" I.L. when the bulkheads are in place at the ends of the hopper sections. The only unfortunate information in the January 1943 ORER is that it "Note O" shows only 2 cars, 40878 & 40894, remaining in series 40800 - 40999. The PGE acquired 10 cars nine years later. Now to try to find a diagram that shows the operating mechanism for the hoppers. Based on Bill's photo of the interior, only the lower portion of the outer panel of the hopper opens and it will need to be hinged at its lowest point in order to effect discharge outside the rails. Cheers, Greg Kennelly -- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software. www.avg.com |
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That's interesting because wasn't there also a Canadian railroad with T&NO initials ? On 8/25/2022 10:48 PM, Steve and Barb Hile wrote:
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Tim O'Connor Sterling, Massachusetts |
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Ian Cranstone
There was, specifically the Temiskaming & Northern Ontario – but they used TEM reporting marks. The name was changed to Ontario Northland in 1946, with reporting marks changed to ONT. There was a note in the ORER that their cars should not be confused with those of the Texas & New Orleans. Before the First World War, there was a major railway in Eastern Canada known as the Intercolonial, with IRC reporting marks. Similarly, there was a caution not to confuse their cars with those of the Illinois Central. Ian Cranstone On 2022-08-28 17:01, Tim O'Connor wrote:
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Tim,
The Temiskaming & Northern Ontario, predecessor of the Ontario Northland. The ORER contained specific cautions not to mix them up with the T&NO.
Regards,
Bruce
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...>
Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2022 4:01 PM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> Subject: [EXT] Re: [RealSTMFC] Help identifying a gondola, please
That's interesting because wasn't there also a Canadian railroad with T&NO initials ? On 8/25/2022 10:48 PM, Steve and Barb Hile wrote:
-- Tim O'Connor Sterling, Massachusetts |
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greg kennelly
Yes. The Temiskaming & Northern Ontario (reporting marks TEM), which later became Ontario Northland.
Cheers, Greg Kennelly -- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software. www.avg.com |
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