On 15 Sep 2022, at 13:41, Nelson Moyer <npmoyer@...> wrote:

SFRD orange was discussed recently on the resincarbuilders io group. I don't remember Tamiya or Vallejo mentioned as the discussion was on what color(s) of orange to use. I did color sampling on several color photos of SFRD cars and also several models guilt by well known ATSF modelers, then printed RGB color samples for each version of SFRD orange. I also received the a file of the color chips for the early and post 1955 versions of SFRD orange. The early orange was much lighter than the later orange, as you can see from the color chips. Also, the orange faded toward yellow, so your paint choice depends upon era and whether you want a new paint look or a well weathered car, or something between.

The ATSF Historical and Technical Society color chip match is given in Pantone and CMYK. My interpretation is that Pantone is the late color and CMYK is the early color, as clearly, they are not the same colors of orange. I used the CMYK color together with my color sampling experiment to select my four SFRD colors. I had both the SFRD color chip and my color sampling file printed by a professional graphic shop with a color calibrated printer, so the original print is accurate, but what you see on your monitor will depend upon the color calibration of your monitor.

Most of the models of ice bunker SFRD cars I've seen are painted too orange, closer to the post 1955 color.

Why Scalecoat II? Masking with Tru Color is hit or miss, and I'll have to mask the sides to paint the underframe, ends, and roof. I felt that Scalecoat II would be more reliable under masking.

I painted the sides of four SFRD cars yesterday, using mixes of Scalecoat II Reefer Yellow and Reefer Orange. While I tried to match the color samples I had chosen, the paint looks different wet and dry, and I ended up with too much yellow in all but one car. Based upon that experience, I'll add a little more orange to three of the mixes and try again.

Nelson Moyer

-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Paul Doggett via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2022 6:49 AM
To: RealSTMFC@groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] SFRD

Help please

Do Tamiya or Vallejo do an orange that is suitable for SFRD orange?

Many thanks
Paul Doggett. England


Attachments:
SFRD Color Chip_Pantone & CMYK.pdf: https://RealSTMFC.groups.io/g/main/attachment/195264/0
SFRD Color Matching Paint Chips.docx: https://RealSTMFC.groups.io/g/main/attachment/195264/1

On 15 Sep 2022, at 17:14, Nelson Moyer <npmoyer@...> wrote:

George's Vallejo mix is very close to the Intermountain SFRD color. Model colors range from yellowest (Sandifer) to orangest (Hodina). Hendrickson was slightly less orange than Hodina, and Toman is slightly more orange than Sandifer. You have a wide range to shoot for.

Nelson

-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Paul Doggett via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2022 8:04 AM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] SFRD

Nelson

Unfortunately Scalecoat is not available in the U.K. .

Paul Doggett

On 15 Sep 2022, at 21:21, Steve SANDIFER <steve.sandifer@...> wrote:

There are two SFRD reefer orange. They changed in 1955 with the RR56
The early SFRD reefer orange: https://hextoral.com/hex-color/ff7900/pantone/
The later SFRD reefer orange: https://hextoral.com/hex-color/EA7125/pantone/
It depends on the calibration of your monitor if either of these should be
your reference.

J. Stephen Sandifer

-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Paul
Doggett via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2022 6:49 AM
To: RealSTMFC@groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] SFRD

Help please

Do Tamiya or Vallejo do an orange that is suitable for SFRD orange?

Many thanks
Paul Doggett. England

On 15 Sep 2022, at 21:39, Steve SANDIFER <steve.sandifer@...> wrote:

Since I model 1952, I am only concerned with the early orange. Since I have a bunch of Intermountain and CB&T cars, any resin cars are painted to match those. I would rather have cars that blend in than correct cars that stick out.


J. Stephen Sandifer

-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Nelson Moyer
Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2022 11:14 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] SFRD

George's Vallejo mix is very close to the Intermountain SFRD color. Model colors range from yellowest (Sandifer) to orangest (Hodina). Hendrickson was slightly less orange than Hodina, and Toman is slightly more orange than Sandifer. You have a wide range to shoot for.

Nelson

-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Paul Doggett via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2022 8:04 AM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] SFRD

Nelson

Unfortunately Scalecoat is not available in the U.K. .

Paul Doggett

On Sep 15, 2022, at 9:14 AM, Nelson Moyer <npmoyer@...> wrote:

George's Vallejo mix is very close to the Intermountain SFRD color. Model colors range from yellowest (Sandifer) to orangest (Hodina). Hendrickson was slightly less orange than Hodina, and Toman is slightly more orange than Sandifer. You have a wide range to shoot for.

Nelson

On 15 Sep 2022, at 22:27, Tony Thompson <tony@...> wrote:

Please remember that the color faded in service .
Tony Thompson

On Sep 15, 2022, at 9:14 AM, Nelson Moyer <npmoyer@...> wrote:

George's Vallejo mix is very close to the Intermountain SFRD color. Model colors range from yellowest (Sandifer) to orangest (Hodina). Hendrickson was slightly less orange than Hodina, and Toman is slightly more orange than Sandifer. You have a wide range to shoot for.

Nelson

On 16 Sep 2022, at 13:40, Ted Larson via groups.io <mhrreast@...> wrote:

 Is there a difference between weathering and fading?

I thought fading was due to weather.  

--
Ted Larson
Trainweb.org/MHRR   ---   GN in 1965   ---   NASG.org 

Is there a difference between weathering and fading?

--
Ted Larson
Trainweb.org/MHRR   ---   GN in 1965   ---   NASG.org 

I think that Nelson has described the difference between weathering and fading pretty well, with one cravat… If “fading” is the loss of color, this really isn’t what happens to the paints used by railroads.  Paint is at its simplest, pigment held in place by a clear matrix.  The pigments don’t loose color, but as the matrix fails, it (the matrix, independent of any pigment) forms a cloudy film, which makes the paint look less colorful, and more grey.  In some cases some of the pigment is released by the matrix.  This is particularly true of white lead paints used for lettering on cars, and that white lead will wash down the side of the car below the lettering.

If you simply wipe weathered paint with a wet cloth you will while it is still wet, the original color.  Historically, passenger cars were regularly varnished, to keep them looking bright, shiny and fresh.

Randy Hees

I think that Nelson has described the difference between weathering and fading pretty well, with one cravat… If “fading” is the loss of color, this really isn’t what happens to the paints used by railroads.  Paint is at its simplest, pigment held in place by a clear matrix.  The pigments don’t loose color, but as the matrix fails, it (the matrix, independent of any pigment) forms a cloudy film, which makes the paint look less colorful, and more grey.  In some cases some of the pigment is released by the matrix.  This is particularly true of white lead paints used for lettering on cars, and that white lead will wash down the side of the car below the lettering.

If you simply wipe weathered paint with a wet cloth you will while it is still wet, the original color.  Historically, passenger cars were regularly varnished, to keep them looking bright, shiny and fresh.

Randy Hees

On Sep 16, 2022, at 8:29 AM, Randy Hees <randyhees@...> wrote:



I think that Nelson has described the difference between weathering and fading pretty well, with one cravat… If “fading” is the loss of color, this really isn’t what happens to the paints used by railroads.  Paint is at its simplest, pigment held in place by a clear matrix.  The pigments don’t loose color, but as the matrix fails, it (the matrix, independent of any pigment) forms a cloudy film, which makes the paint look less colorful, and more grey.  In some cases some of the pigment is released by the matrix.  This is particularly true of white lead paints used for lettering on cars, and that white lead will wash down the side of the car below the lettering.

If you simply wipe weathered paint with a wet cloth you will while it is still wet, the original color.  Historically, passenger cars were regularly varnished, to keep them looking bright, shiny and fresh.

Randy Hees

On 09/16/2022 9:36 AM Nelson Moyer <npmoyer@...> wrote:

I attached the second attempt at SFRD paint colors. The first attempt was too yellow on all cars. This one is good for L (lighest) and J (next lightest), but E and H are too orange, even though they match two of the color samples from prototype ice bunker cars I posted earlier. I'd like to find shades between L and J, and maybe a shade or two lighter than L.

Is the darker orange for E and H too orange for 1953? I don't have photo dates for the ice bunker cars I sampled, so I don't know if they were painted before 1955 or afterwards. I'm thinking about adding yellow to the darker orange paint, to bring it closer to L, then repainting E and H.