I agree with you about the roof, but I don’t see black on the underframe. How do we differentiate between steam era soot and car cement in a black and white photo?

 

Nelson Moyer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Tim O'Connor
Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2022 6:01 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Amarillo RR Museum FW&D Covered Hopper

 

Nelson

In my opinion this car, built 12-48, has a black roof.

I will again reference the Ed Hawkins article in RPC Volume 30.  My FW&D covered hoppers will follow his description of colors at page 97.  “The sides, ends, slope sheets and AB brake parts received mineral red paint.  Black car cement was applied to the roof, hopper bottoms and outlets.” 

Gary Laakso

Northwest of Mike Brock

Seeing the black roof raised a red flag for me, so I posted a question about covered hopper paint colors on the CB&Q list and consulted Burlington Bulletin No. 20 titled Covered Hoppers. CB&Q built the first HC-1 covered hoppers in Galesburg and when the Galesburg car shop was closed, the rest of the series was build in Havelock, NE. Orders for HC-1s were placed in 1940, 1943, 1945, 1948. HC-1A orders were placed in 1951, 1952, 1954, 1955, and 1957. HC-1B orders were placed in 1958, HC-1C orders were placed in 1961, and HC-1D order were placed in 1968 and 1969. Cars were essentially identical except for trucks, hand brakes, and paint schemes, and lettering. HC-1 cars built in 1940 were mineral red on all surfaces with Everywhere West slogan and black background heralds. They had Nataional Type B trucks and Equipco hand brakes. The black herald background was elliminated with subsequent orders, but the paint and lettering was the same. FW&D got 25 cars (series 2201-2225) from the 1945 order.  A photograph of FW&D 2215 taken in 1963 shows no black paint on the underfarme, trucks, or roof. Block lettering and black paint was first used on covered hoppers with the HC-1B order in 1958. The Everywhere West slogan was eliminated at that time. All of these cars had black trucks, most were painted mineral red overall, and a few were painted solid black overall. Black underbody with mineral red on the rest of the car was first used PS-2 cars and on repaints in the 1960. No mention is made of black roofs, except on solid black cars.The paint scheme changed in 1961, when hoppers were painted light gray with red block lettering and a three color Burlington Route herald.

So from BB#20 text and photos, none of the HC-1 series cars with the Everywhere West slogan ever had black roofs or underframes. It's possible FW&D repainted roofs black, but the photo of 2215 taken in 1963 suggest otherwise. The response I got from the CBQ group supports that conclusion.

Seeing the black roof raised a red flag for me, so I posted a question about covered hopper paint colors on the CB&Q list and consulted Burlington Bulletin No. 20 titled Covered Hoppers. CB&Q built the first HC-1 covered hoppers in Galesburg and when the Galesburg car shop was closed, the rest of the series was build in Havelock, NE. Orders for HC-1s were placed in 1940, 1943, 1945, 1948. HC-1A orders were placed in 1951, 1952, 1954, 1955, and 1957. HC-1B orders were placed in 1958, HC-1C orders were placed in 1961, and HC-1D order were placed in 1968 and 1969. Cars were essentially identical except for trucks, hand brakes, and paint schemes, and lettering. HC-1 cars built in 1940 were mineral red on all surfaces with Everywhere West slogan and black background heralds. They had Nataional Type B trucks and Equipco hand brakes. The black herald background was elliminated with subsequent orders, but the paint and lettering was the same. FW&D got 25 cars (series 2201-2225) from the 1945 order.  A photograph of FW&D 2215 taken in 1963 shows no black paint on the underfarme, trucks, or roof. Block lettering and black paint was first used on covered hoppers with the HC-1B order in 1958. The Everywhere West slogan was eliminated at that time. All of these cars had black trucks, most were painted mineral red overall, and a few were painted solid black overall. Black underbody with mineral red on the rest of the car was first used PS-2 cars and on repaints in the 1960. No mention is made of black roofs, except on solid black cars.The paint scheme changed in 1961, when hoppers were painted light gray with red block lettering and a three color Burlington Route herald.

So from BB#20 text and photos, none of the HC-1 series cars with the Everywhere West slogan ever had black roofs or underframes. It's possible FW&D repainted roofs black, but the photo of 2215 taken in 1963 suggest otherwise. The response I got from the CBQ group supports that conclusion.

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

Here’s a close up of the photo I used as reference; the sides of the roof don’t appear to be red nor does the lower portion of the car but I’m certainly not a CB&Q expert and always appreciate additional information. 


Charlie Duckworth 
Omaha, Ne.

Seeing the black roof raised a red flag for me, so I posted a question about covered hopper paint colors on the CB&Q list and consulted Burlington Bulletin No. 20 titled Covered Hoppers. CB&Q built the first HC-1 covered hoppers in Galesburg and when the Galesburg car shop was closed, the rest of the series was build in Havelock, NE. Orders for HC-1s were placed in 1940, 1943, 1945, 1948. HC-1A orders were placed in 1951, 1952, 1954, 1955, and 1957. HC-1B orders were placed in 1958, HC-1C orders were placed in 1961, and HC-1D order were placed in 1968 and 1969. Cars were essentially identical except for trucks, hand brakes, and paint schemes, and lettering. HC-1 cars built in 1940 were mineral red on all surfaces with Everywhere West slogan and black background heralds. They had Nataional Type B trucks and Equipco hand brakes. The black herald background was elliminated with subsequent orders, but the paint and lettering was the same. FW&D got 25 cars (series 2201-2225) from the 1945 order.  A photograph of FW&D 2215 taken in 1963 shows no black paint on the underfarme, trucks, or roof. Block lettering and black paint was first used on covered hoppers with the HC-1B order in 1958. The Everywhere West slogan was eliminated at that time. All of these cars had black trucks, most were painted mineral red overall, and a few were painted solid black overall. Black underbody with mineral red on the rest of the car was first used PS-2 cars and on repaints in the 1960. No mention is made of black roofs, except on solid black cars.The paint scheme changed in 1961, when hoppers were painted light gray with red block lettering and a three color Burlington Route herald.

So from BB#20 text and photos, none of the HC-1 series cars with the Everywhere West slogan ever had black roofs or underframes. It's possible FW&D repainted roofs black, but the photo of 2215 taken in 1963 suggest otherwise. The response I got from the CBQ group supports that conclusion.

Seeing the black roof raised a red flag for me, so I posted a question about covered hopper paint colors on the CB&Q list and consulted Burlington Bulletin No. 20 titled Covered Hoppers. CB&Q built the first HC-1 covered hoppers in Galesburg and when the Galesburg car shop was closed, the rest of the series was build in Havelock, NE. Orders for HC-1s were placed in 1940, 1943, 1945, 1948. HC-1A orders were placed in 1951, 1952, 1954, 1955, and 1957. HC-1B orders were placed in 1958, HC-1C orders were placed in 1961, and HC-1D order were placed in 1968 and 1969. Cars were essentially identical except for trucks, hand brakes, and paint schemes, and lettering. HC-1 cars built in 1940 were mineral red on all surfaces with Everywhere West slogan and black background heralds. They had Nataional Type B trucks and Equipco hand brakes. The black herald background was elliminated with subsequent orders, but the paint and lettering was the same. FW&D got 25 cars (series 2201-2225) from the 1945 order.  A photograph of FW&D 2215 taken in 1963 shows no black paint on the underfarme, trucks, or roof. Block lettering and black paint was first used on covered hoppers with the HC-1B order in 1958. The Everywhere West slogan was eliminated at that time. All of these cars had black trucks, most were painted mineral red overall, and a few were painted solid black overall. Black underbody with mineral red on the rest of the car was first used PS-2 cars and on repaints in the 1960. No mention is made of black roofs, except on solid black cars.The paint scheme changed in 1961, when hoppers were painted light gray with red block lettering and a three color Burlington Route herald.

So from BB#20 text and photos, none of the HC-1 series cars with the Everywhere West slogan ever had black roofs or underframes. It's possible FW&D repainted roofs black, but the photo of 2215 taken in 1963 suggest otherwise. The response I got from the CBQ group supports that conclusion.

I like to support the ARM’s fund raising and bought one of their FW&D IM covered hoppers.  Given the previous discussions on this list that the roof and lower portion of the hopper were painted black I used Vallejo black and brush painted these areas.  Referencing a prototype image I initially streaked white oil paint down the side panels and around the roof hatches.   After drying I airbrushed a wash of TruColor white. 

--
Charlie Duckworth 
Omaha, Ne.

On 23 Sep 2022, at 21:13, Charlie Duckworth via groups.io <Worth51@...> wrote:



I like to support the ARM’s fund raising and bought one of their FW&D IM covered hoppers.  Given the previous discussions on this list that the roof and lower portion of the hopper were painted black I used Vallejo black and brush painted these areas.  Referencing a prototype image I initially streaked white oil paint down the side panels and around the roof hatches.   After drying I airbrushed a wash of TruColor white. 

--
Charlie Duckworth 
Omaha, Ne.