Canning - was Re: Baggage cars in freight trains


Jim Betz
 

Doug/all,

  Yes, there were can plants distributed all over the U.S.  They took in steel
(or other) and put out cans and the lids to go on them.  There was one in
Seattle (Continental Can) and another in Oakland (Con again), etc.
  The canneries received cans stacked but loose in large cardboard boxes
(no separators) ... of about a 1000 (IIRC) cans per box.  The box was
put into a machine that emptied them into rectangular metal "tubes" formed
out of rods that directed the cans - by gravity flow - down to the canning
machines.
  The cans to Alaska were shipped on Liberty Ship sized freighters that
delivered them to the canneries.  Crane operator on ship lifted pallets
and put them on the dock where the fork lifts (he kept more than one
busy) ran them into the warehouse and stacked them 3 or 4 high.  The
rest of the process was pretty much the same as in the PNW - except
the cannery in Hawk Inlet was powered by steam driven leather belts
running overhead that powered everything - even all the machine tools
in the shop used to fix broken machines.

  This is how it worked in the 60's when I worked in a salmon cannery in the
PNW.  I worked in the can loft driving a fork lift and on the canning line and
in the warehouse (different fork lift unloading boxes of cans from box cars
and loading canned fish into the same cars to go out.  Yes, the lids came
separately packaged and were loaded into the canning machine on the
canning floor where the fish was cut and stuffed into the cans, a line of
workers (all women usually) "trimmed" the cans (added a small piece of
fish to any can that didn't meet weight).  The can then had the lid put on 
it and went thru the "retort" (think huge pressure cooker) in metal carts
pushed on flanged wheels.  After cooking they went to the labelling line
and were put into cardboard boxes which were stacked on pallets (at
first it was metal straps but while I worked there we converted to using
super tape (3M nylon fibre tape).  The pallets went into box cars and
were stacked two pallets of salmon high - all by a forklift.  Not all salmon
produced today went out on the next train.  There were pallets stacked in
the warehouse that were held until a later time (better prices?).  The fish
was sorted by species and then put thru "the iron chink" which did the
major gutting and cut head and tails off.  A worker (yes, I did this job also)
stood at the output of the chink and cleaned up the last of each fish (using
a knife and water) and from there it went to a holding bin that fed the
canning line.  The canning machine cut the fish to size and rammed it
into the cans - very noisey bang, bang, bang (one bang for every can).
When I was in college I worked in the mail department of the S.F. Mint
and we used a Pitney-Bowes machine that stuffed bonds into envelopes
in a very similar manner.
                                                                       - Nostalgic Jim in the PNW
 


Bill Parks
 

Here is a 1939 photo of unloading cans that were shipped loose - 

https://picryl.com/media/unloading-cans-from-a-boxcar-is-done-by-picking-them-up-on-a-row-of-spikes 

--
Bill Parks
Cumming, GA
Modelling the Seaboard Airline in Central Florida


Dave Nelson
 

American can was another big mfgr of cans.

 

FWIW the sheet steel used to make cans was HUGE source of profit for steel mills, far more than anything else.  As an example, there was a US Steel mill in Pittsburg CA that received sheet steel from Utah (DRGW/WP) to treat the metal for use in making cans.  AFAIK it was pretty much all the plant did.

There were canneries everywhere which meant there were also lots of can manufacturing plants ready to receive flat sheet steel..  Lots of freight traffic.

 

Dave Nelson

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jim Betz
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2022 7:39 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Canning - was Re: Baggage cars in freight trains

 

Doug/all,

  Yes, there were can plants distributed all over the U.S.  They took in steel
(or other) and put out cans and the lids to go on them.  There was one in
Seattle (Continental Can) and another in Oakland (Con again), etc.
  The canneries received cans stacked but loose in large cardboard boxes
(no separators) ... of about a 1000 (IIRC) cans per box.  The box was
put into a machine that emptied them into rectangular metal "tubes" formed
out of rods that directed the cans - by gravity flow - down to the canning
machines.                                                                       - Nostalgic Jim in the PNW
 


Todd Sullivan
 

There was a big Continental Can Co. plant on Water Street in Syracuse, NY that served canning operations along the Ontario Lake shore for apple products (e.g., applesauce), sauerkraut and cherries, and probably other kinds of fruits and vegetables.

(When the NY Central ran through the city streets of Syracuse, their main access line ran on Water Street.  One block north was the Erie Canal.)

Todd Sullivan


Nolan Hinshaw
 

On Nov 17, 2022, at 07:39, Jim Betz <jimbetz@...> wrote:

Doug/all,

Yes, there were can plants distributed all over the U.S. They took in steel
(or other) and put out cans and the lids to go on them. There was one in
Seattle (Continental Can) and another in Oakland (Con again), etc.
Libbys had one in East Sacramento served (if my a-jed memory hasn't melted)
off the R street local.

This is how it worked in the 60's when I worked in a salmon cannery in the
PNW.
Shades of the Alaska Packers! (until the 1930s or so, having the largest fleet
of American-flagged sailing ships), home-ported in Alameda CA and rail-served
off the Alameda Belt. Chignik AK was the seasonal port.
--
Willie was a chemist,
Now Willie is no more.
What Willie thought was H2O
Was H2SO4


Douglas Harding
 

Bill l was going to post the same photo. And I have others of loose cans in cars. A lot of vegetables and meat were canned in Iowa. The large cities had can factories, but they were not always next doors to the canneries or meat plants. So the empty cans were delivered where they were needed by rail or truck. A few plants could roll their own cans, so they got flat stock.

 

Doug Harding

https://www.facebook.com/douglas.harding.3156/

Youtube: Douglas Harding Iowa Central Railroad

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bill Parks via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2022 10:29 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Canning - was Re: Baggage cars in freight trains

 

Here is a 1939 photo of unloading cans that were shipped loose - 

https://picryl.com/media/unloading-cans-from-a-boxcar-is-done-by-picking-them-up-on-a-row-of-spikes 

--
Bill Parks
Cumming, GA
Modelling the Seaboard Airline in Central Florida


Jay Styron
 

My Dad worked for Continental Can, and I spent a summer working in their bottle cap factory in Wilmington, Delaware. They would get raw cork off of ships, grind it in the cork mill and form it into various shapes and sizes.  Bottle caps at the time (late ‘60’s) used cork seals.  The plant would receive printed sheet metal for the bottle caps, called “crowns”, run it through punch presses, and ship the finished product in cartons about 12”X18”. I spent a lot of time loading these cartons into boxcars, floor to ceiling.  The skeletons from the punch press operation, resembling furnace filters, would be tossed into a waiting gondola and shipped off as scrap. Boxcar door openings would be sealed off with Signode straps and paper, nailed into the wood interior of the cars. Boxcars were sometimes poorly spotted, and one of the guys was expert in hooking up a comealong, releasing the brake, and working the car into position. Stubborn boxcar doors were often helped along by the use of a “Towmotor”, local generic term for forklift. Dock plates were thrown down, bridging between warehouse floor and boxcar, something I’ve never seen modeled, oddly enough. Lot of memories from that summer, walking down to the local bar at lunch for a 7oz Rolling Rock and a burger. The guys were such characters…
-Jay Styron


Doug Paasch
 

Yes, American Can and Continental Can BOTH had large can plants in Seattle, as I mentioned earlier.  American Can was on the Seattle downtown waterfront.  Continental Can was near the Duwamish River that emptied into Puget Sound in south Seattle area.  For RR content, here are some items:

 

  1. The American Can plant in Seattle was across the street (Alaskan Way) from Pier 69.  American Can actually owned Pier 69 at the time the plant operated.  When American Can went belly-up, Pier 69 was left to rot away.  The Port of Seattle purchased it, completely redid it, and made it their new headquarters in 1992 (I briefly had an office there before I resigned from the Port).  Here is what the former American Can plant looks like today:

https://www.bing.com/maps?osid=3ad834db-c228-4e07-b0b3-d5a2a5c04d76&cp=47.614236~-122.352602&lvl=19.62&style=g&pi=0&v=2&sV=2&form=S00027

Pier 69 now has no resemblance to what it looked like in the old days but I know there are some old photos of it on the internet somewhere as I have seen some.  From the plant’s location, I must assume that NP switched American Can, probably exclusively.

  1. The Continental Can plant in Seattle was on South Orchard St.  There were actually two plants there.  Plant 13 made the cans and Plant 31 adjacent to it made canning machinery.  Here is what the can plant looks like today:

https://www.bing.com/maps?osid=1fa021fb-c715-4a1c-8256-21c2dce057a3&cp=47.538351~-122.324897&lvl=20.306181&dir=180&style=g&pi=0&v=2&sV=2&form=S00027

The water tower on the roof used to have a big red concentric set of “CCC” on it for Continental Can Company.  The water tower was left on the roof as a landmark but has not had any water in it since the 1965 Seattle earthquake.  That earthquake caused the water tower on top of the Fisher’s flour mill to fall over and it caused the one fatality of that earthquake and was someone that our family knew.  So water towers were drained after that so they wouldn’t slosh and fall over in earthquakes.  Continental Can in Seattle was switched by UP.  Some of the spur tracks are still visible.  The junk yard next to the can plant to the west used to be Plant 31, the machine shop, and CCC owned all that property along the river and along the street where the junk yard is now (Seattle Iron & Metal).

  1. Regarding steel that was mentioned by Dave Nelson, it was shipped in box cars cut to size and stacked in bunches.  My best recollection from 50 years ago, the last I saw it, it was somewhere around 3 ft x 5 ft sheets??  My dad said it was loaded in boxcars to about 3 ft in height so as not to exceed the car’s weight limit.   It was called “tin plate” because it was coated with a thin layer of tin (thus “tin cans”) but was steel underneath the very thin tin coating.  I remember the scrap bin at the end punch machine with these big sheets of tin all full of holes where the can ends were punched out.  It was like very sharp and dangerous steel “lace.”  The scrap was sent out in gondolas to be re-milled.
  2. A lot of the cans were shipped out in bulk, like in the picture Bill Parks provided.  Yes, later it went out in cardboard boxes.
  3. Speaking of your canning days Jim, probably later than when you were canning fish, Continental Can invented what they called the “collapsible can” which was sent out “flat” and squished back into a round shape at the fish cannery.  BTW, Continental Can, and I would guess American Can also, made the canning machines that the fish canneries, meat canneries, and vegetable canneries used to do the canning with.
  4. Here is an item of possible nostalgia for some of you.  I scarfed the attached map of Continental Can plants when they shut down Plant 13 in the 1970’s.  I don’t know what year the map was made though.

I see the Bond Crown Division bottle cap plant on the map in Wilmington that Jay Styron mentioned.  Also, look at the blue patches in VA, NC, SC, GA, and LA states.  That land was owned (or leased) by Continental Can for their paper products divisions.  That would make some good loads in and out for those who model the south, similar to what us Pacific Northwest modelers do with Weyerhaeuser and Scott Paper loads.  Pulp wood and chemicals in, paper and cardboard out.

 

Doug Paasch

Also waxing nostalgic about the good old days in Seattle

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Dave Nelson
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2022 11:17 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Canning - was Re: Baggage cars in freight trains

 

American can was another big mfgr of cans.

 

FWIW the sheet steel used to make cans was HUGE source of profit for steel mills, far more than anything else.  As an example, there was a US Steel mill in Pittsburg CA that received sheet steel from Utah (DRGW/WP) to treat the metal for use in making cans.  AFAIK it was pretty much all the plant did.

There were canneries everywhere which meant there were also lots of can manufacturing plants ready to receive flat sheet steel..  Lots of freight traffic.

 

Dave Nelson

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jim Betz
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2022 7:39 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Canning - was Re: Baggage cars in freight trains

 

Doug/all,

  Yes, there were can plants distributed all over the U.S.  They took in steel
(or other) and put out cans and the lids to go on them.  There was one in
Seattle (Continental Can) and another in Oakland (Con again), etc.
  The canneries received cans stacked but loose in large cardboard boxes
(no separators) ... of about a 1000 (IIRC) cans per box.  The box was
put into a machine that emptied them into rectangular metal "tubes" formed
out of rods that directed the cans - by gravity flow - down to the canning
machines.                                                                       - Nostalgic Jim in the PNW
 


Dennis Storzek
 

On Fri, Nov 18, 2022 at 02:43 PM, Doug Paasch wrote:
Here is an item of possible nostalgia for some of you.  I scarfed the attached map of Continental Can plants when they shut down Plant 13 in the 1970’s.  I don’t know what year the map was made though.
I've been wondering why empty cans were shipped from Cleveland to Wisconsin, As I was sure there were can plants in Chicago if not closer. All I can figure is not all plants made all sizes, and they traded increased shipping costs for economies of scale on some of the lesser used sizes.

Dennis Storzek


Doug Paasch
 

Yes Dennis,

 

It is true that some can plants made certain cans, and other plants made other types of cans.  The plants made what types of cans were needed in large volumes for the industries in their areas.  And I mean LARGE volumes, as in millions of cans, as the machinery is big, heavy, expensive, and specific to a type/size of can.  And boy did that can plant pound and vibrate from the machinery.  The physical building was quite a substantial investment, as well as the machinery.  So, small volume customers would indeed have to order from can plants far away if they weren’t near a high-volume customer for the same type of can.

 

That’s why the Seattle plant made lots of fish cans, because of the Alaska and Washington fish canneries.  BTW, the Alaska commercial fishing fleet was, and still is, based in Seattle at the Port of Seattle’s Fisherman’s Terminal at the north end of Interbay (as in BNSF’s, nee BN’s, nee GN’s Interbay), and at Pier 91 (former Navy Pier) at the south end of Interbay.  Back in GN days, there was a Western Fruit Express (as in GN’s subsidiary in the WFE/BRE/FGE consortium) icing platform at Interbay (steam era content) along GN’s main out of the north end of the yard.  The fishing industry today still uses a LOT of ice.  Back in the steam era days, the reefers for shipping fish used a lot of ice, too, and Seattle was where a lot of fish were brought in from Alaska and local waters.

 

Doug Paasch

 

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Dennis Storzek via groups.io
Sent: Friday, November 18, 2022 6:34 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Canning - was Re: Baggage cars in freight trains

 

On Fri, Nov 18, 2022 at 02:43 PM, Doug Paasch wrote:

Here is an item of possible nostalgia for some of you.  I scarfed the attached map of Continental Can plants when they shut down Plant 13 in the 1970’s.  I don’t know what year the map was made though.

I've been wondering why empty cans were shipped from Cleveland to Wisconsin, As I was sure there were can plants in Chicago if not closer. All I can figure is not all plants made all sizes, and they traded increased shipping costs for economies of scale on some of the lesser used sizes.

Dennis Storzek


Tim O'Connor
 


Could railroad tariffs (say, for empty ice reefers) offer "deep discounts" for returning loads for cars that
otherwise would tend to return empty ? Maybe the extra shipping cost of those cans is not as high as you
might think. I wonder if there were discount rates for empty beer kegs, and empty barrels, and empty pallets.



On 11/18/2022 8:34 PM, Dennis Storzek via groups.io wrote:

On Fri, Nov 18, 2022 at 02:43 PM, Doug Paasch wrote:
Here is an item of possible nostalgia for some of you.  I scarfed the attached map of Continental Can plants when they shut down Plant 13 in the 1970’s.  I don’t know what year the map was made though.
I've been wondering why empty cans were shipped from Cleveland to Wisconsin, As I was sure there were can plants in Chicago if not closer. All I can figure is not all plants made all sizes, and they traded increased shipping costs for economies of scale on some of the lesser used sizes.

Dennis Storzek

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Charlie Duckworth
 

Tim
Before deregulation the several commodity tariffs had a ‘five for one rule’ for returnable dunnage and pallets.  Meaning the consignee was to load the pallets into one car that came in in five loads.  The loaded pallet car was billed as a load and noted in the commodity section’Five for one rule’ or something similar.  The car also moved back to the original shipper free.  These was to reduce claims by shippers when their pallets or dunnage was lost. 
--
Charlie Duckworth 
Omaha, Ne.


William Hirt
 

My dad worked at Continental Can plants in Omaha, St. Joseph MO and two of the plants in the Chicago area (Plants 51 and 64). I know that Plant 51 on S. Ashland Ave in Chicago made cans for Dubuque packing in Dubuque, IA, as my dad visited the packer several times. I assume they were cans for canned hams which was a big item for Dubuque packing.

When he worked at the St. Joseph MO plant, one of their big customers was Trenton Foods in Trenton, MO. Trenton Foods produced products like Vienna Sausage for most of meat packers.  We used to have cases of Vienna Sausage from there in our basement. The big meat packers (Armour and Swift) were still operating in St. Joseph, so the can plant did good business. They also made cans for the Goetz (later Pearl) brewery in St. Joseph. My dad said Continental got their investment back in 3 years on that plant.

On 11/18/2022 9:18 PM, Doug Paasch wrote:

Yes Dennis,

 

It is true that some can plants made certain cans, and other plants made other types of cans.  The plants made what types of cans were needed in large volumes for the industries in their areas.  And I mean LARGE volumes, as in millions of cans, as the machinery is big, heavy, expensive, and specific to a type/size of can.  And boy did that can plant pound and vibrate from the machinery.  The physical building was quite a substantial investment, as well as the machinery.  So, small volume customers would indeed have to order from can plants far away if they weren’t near a high-volume customer for the same type of can.

 




Tim O'Connor
 


Thanks Charlie ! It could add interest to a layout to incorporate this into operations.

On 11/19/2022 9:48 AM, Charlie Duckworth via groups.io wrote:

Tim
Before deregulation the several commodity tariffs had a ‘five for one rule’ for returnable dunnage and pallets.  Meaning the consignee was to load the pallets into one car that came in in five loads.  The loaded pallet car was billed as a load and noted in the commodity section’Five for one rule’ or something similar.  The car also moved back to the original shipper free.  These was to reduce claims by shippers when their pallets or dunnage was lost. 
--
Charlie Duckworth 
Omaha, Ne.

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


William Hirt
 

My dad worked at Continental Can plants in Omaha, St. Joseph MO and two of the plants in the Chicago area (Plants 51 and 64). I know that Plant 51 on S. Ashland Ave in Chicago made cans for Dubuque packing in Dubuque, IA, as my dad visited the packer several times. I assume they were cans for canned hams which was a big item for Dubuque packing.

When he worked at the St. Joseph MO plant, one of their big customers was Trenton Foods in Trenton, MO. Trenton Foods produced products like Vienna Sausage for most of meat packers.  We used to have cases of Vienna Sausage from there in our basement. The big meat packers (Armour and Swift) were still operating in St. Joseph, so the can plant did good business. They also made cans for the Goetz (later Pearl) brewery in St. Joseph. My dad said Continental got their investment back in 3 years on that plant.

Bill Hirt

On 11/18/2022 9:18 PM, Doug Paasch wrote:

Yes Dennis,

 

It is true that some can plants made certain cans, and other plants made other types of cans.  The plants made what types of cans were needed in large volumes for the industries in their areas.  And I mean LARGE volumes, as in millions of cans, as the machinery is big, heavy, expensive, and specific to a type/size of can.  And boy did that can plant pound and vibrate from the machinery.  The physical building was quite a substantial investment, as well as the machinery.  So, small volume customers would indeed have to order from can plants far away if they weren’t near a high-volume customer for the same type of can.

 




Andy Laurent
 

On Fri, Nov 18, 2022 at 05:34 PM, Dennis Storzek wrote:
I've been wondering why empty cans were shipped from Cleveland to Wisconsin, As I was sure there were can plants in Chicago if not closer. All I can figure is not all plants made all sizes, and they traded increased shipping costs for economies of scale on some of the lesser used sizes.

Speaking of inbound cans to Wisconsin, the Evangeline Milk Company in Sturgeon Bay, Wisc on the Ahnapee & Western Rwy received baby cans from Phelps Can in Weirton, West Virginia on the PRR. They also received larger (#6) cans from American Can Co in Brighton Park (Chicago), Ill on the B&OCT. In later years, Phelps acquired a can plant in Burlington, Wisc. on the SOO and some cans started to be sourced there. Railroad pricing tariffs might help explain some of it, but I've discovered that a lot of commodity lanes and purchasing relationships were not based on distance or efficiency of rail routes! 

Andy L.
Madison WI