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Clover Leaf USRA hoppers

Ray Breyer
 

Hi Eric, 

ALL former Clover Leaf and LE&W equipment was repainted to NKP by the end of 1929, at least according to the ORERs (I have a full set for the NKP and affiliate roads from 1885 to 1964). That would include new car numbers, so would indicate a full repaint instead of patch jobs (I only have ONE photo of a patch job, and that was only to remove the NYC oval from the car, not the LE&W branding or original car number)

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL


On Friday, November 25, 2022 at 09:45:37 AM CST, Eric Hansmann <eric@...> wrote:


Larry,
 
Check the NKP listings in an ORER following the acquisition of the Clover Leaf. I checked listings in the May 1925 and October 1926 volumes and found the NKP listings were separated with LE&W and TStL&W tables.
 
The note above the Clover Leaf table reads: Freight cars now marked "T.St.L. & W." are being relettered "N.Y.C. & St.L" and "N.K.P." to series 90000 to 99999 and classified as follows.
In reviewing the table in the 1926 ORER, many of the car number series still list the original Clover Leaf numbers with the NKP numbers adjacent. But the number series quantities do not reflect those still lettered for TStL&W or NKP.
 
The TStL&W USRA hoppers in the 9000 series are noted as numbered in the 99000 series for NKP, but the quantity is a lump sum. If you are modeling a point within five years of the merger, then you have a decent chance of keeping a model with the Clover Leaf lettering. As you get into the late-1920s, the probability decreases.
 
YMMV.
 
 
Eric Hansmann
Murfreesboro, TN
 

On 11/24/2022 11:40 PM CST lrkdbn via groups.io <lrkdbn@...> wrote:
 
 

Some thoughts about Clover Leaf USRA hoppers

I have always wanted to do a model of the Clover Leaf’s USRA hoppers. While the physical model is no problem-just a plain vanilla USRA twin hopper with the ratchet type hand brake, I have never seen any pictures of these cars in Clover Leaf paint. However some data has emerged. TStL&W nos 9000-9449 were built by the Standard Steel Car Co. and their lettering drawing exists and is available from the Illinois Railway Museum Pullman Library. The drawing number is SS-42867 “Stencilling for 350 US TStL&W hopper cars”. That takes care of the first 350 cars.

The last 100 cars were re assigned from the Government Equipment Trust pool, nos. GET 37449-37548. I recently came across , on the Facebook Pre Depression Railroad Modeling site a booklet from the USRA dated 2-25-20 (Circular CS-87)which detailed how the GET cars were to be renumbered to their assigned railroads-listing them by the individual car number. It also gave detailed instructions on exactly how the cars were to be relettered. Basically it was to be a patch paint of the initials and road number located between the horizontal lines on the side of the car and the end lettering was to be painted out, to be replaced by the new owner. The type face and size was to be that specified by the MCB, in other words plain old “RR Roman”.

Now, in the Westerfield ACF CD there is a picture of one of these GET cars that would be assigned to the Clover Leaf. It is of GET 37456 which would become TStL&W 9357 C.T. It is from ACF Lot 8679 built Sept 1919. The dimension data is a bit different from the SSC drawing, so you can have 2 slightly different lettering variations.These last 100 cars were numbered TStL&W 9350-9449C.T.  Note that all these cars had the C.T. suffix “which was to be the same height as the car number”.

Now here’s some speculation: I have seen a picture of a LE&W box car still in its full NYC style paint ,with LE&W initials and number,except that the NYC oval was patch painted over and “Nickel Plate Road”stencilled over it. Could it be that the same thing was done to Clover Leaf cars? It certainly seems plausible but is there any photo or company paperwork to document this? I have read that the NKP was aggressive about promoting its corporate identity in its early history as an independent road and this would fit with the LE&W example cited above. Any comments?

Larry King

 

 

 

 

Eric Hansmann
 

Larry,
 
Check the NKP listings in an ORER following the acquisition of the Clover Leaf. I checked listings in the May 1925 and October 1926 volumes and found the NKP listings were separated with LE&W and TStL&W tables.
 
The note above the Clover Leaf table reads: Freight cars now marked "T.St.L. & W." are being relettered "N.Y.C. & St.L" and "N.K.P." to series 90000 to 99999 and classified as follows.
In reviewing the table in the 1926 ORER, many of the car number series still list the original Clover Leaf numbers with the NKP numbers adjacent. But the number series quantities do not reflect those still lettered for TStL&W or NKP.
 
The TStL&W USRA hoppers in the 9000 series are noted as numbered in the 99000 series for NKP, but the quantity is a lump sum. If you are modeling a point within five years of the merger, then you have a decent chance of keeping a model with the Clover Leaf lettering. As you get into the late-1920s, the probability decreases.
 
YMMV.
 
 
Eric Hansmann
Murfreesboro, TN
 

On 11/24/2022 11:40 PM CST lrkdbn via groups.io <lrkdbn@...> wrote:
 
 

Some thoughts about Clover Leaf USRA hoppers

I have always wanted to do a model of the Clover Leaf’s USRA hoppers. While the physical model is no problem-just a plain vanilla USRA twin hopper with the ratchet type hand brake, I have never seen any pictures of these cars in Clover Leaf paint. However some data has emerged. TStL&W nos 9000-9449 were built by the Standard Steel Car Co. and their lettering drawing exists and is available from the Illinois Railway Museum Pullman Library. The drawing number is SS-42867 “Stencilling for 350 US TStL&W hopper cars”. That takes care of the first 350 cars.

The last 100 cars were re assigned from the Government Equipment Trust pool, nos. GET 37449-37548. I recently came across , on the Facebook Pre Depression Railroad Modeling site a booklet from the USRA dated 2-25-20 (Circular CS-87)which detailed how the GET cars were to be renumbered to their assigned railroads-listing them by the individual car number. It also gave detailed instructions on exactly how the cars were to be relettered. Basically it was to be a patch paint of the initials and road number located between the horizontal lines on the side of the car and the end lettering was to be painted out, to be replaced by the new owner. The type face and size was to be that specified by the MCB, in other words plain old “RR Roman”.

Now, in the Westerfield ACF CD there is a picture of one of these GET cars that would be assigned to the Clover Leaf. It is of GET 37456 which would become TStL&W 9357 C.T. It is from ACF Lot 8679 built Sept 1919. The dimension data is a bit different from the SSC drawing, so you can have 2 slightly different lettering variations.These last 100 cars were numbered TStL&W 9350-9449C.T.  Note that all these cars had the C.T. suffix “which was to be the same height as the car number”.

Now here’s some speculation: I have seen a picture of a LE&W box car still in its full NYC style paint ,with LE&W initials and number,except that the NYC oval was patch painted over and “Nickel Plate Road”stencilled over it. Could it be that the same thing was done to Clover Leaf cars? It certainly seems plausible but is there any photo or company paperwork to document this? I have read that the NKP was aggressive about promoting its corporate identity in its early history as an independent road and this would fit with the LE&W example cited above. Any comments?

Larry King

 

 

 

 

lrkdbn
 

Some thoughts about Clover Leaf USRA hoppers

I have always wanted to do a model of the Clover Leaf’s USRA hoppers. While the physical model is no problem-just a plain vanilla USRA twin hopper with the ratchet type hand brake, I have never seen any pictures of these cars in Clover Leaf paint. However some data has emerged. TStL&W nos 9000-9449 were built by the Standard Steel Car Co. and their lettering drawing exists and is available from the Illinois Railway Museum Pullman Library. The drawing number is SS-42867 “Stencilling for 350 US TStL&W hopper cars”. That takes care of the first 350 cars.

The last 100 cars were re assigned from the Government Equipment Trust pool, nos. GET 37449-37548. I recently came across , on the Facebook Pre Depression Railroad Modeling site a booklet from the USRA dated 2-25-20 (Circular CS-87)which detailed how the GET cars were to be renumbered to their assigned railroads-listing them by the individual car number. It also gave detailed instructions on exactly how the cars were to be relettered. Basically it was to be a patch paint of the initials and road number located between the horizontal lines on the side of the car and the end lettering was to be painted out, to be replaced by the new owner. The type face and size was to be that specified by the MCB, in other words plain old “RR Roman”.

Now, in the Westerfield ACF CD there is a picture of one of these GET cars that would be assigned to the Clover Leaf. It is of GET 37456 which would become TStL&W 9357 C.T. It is from ACF Lot 8679 built Sept 1919. The dimension data is a bit different from the SSC drawing, so you can have 2 slightly different lettering variations.These last 100 cars were numbered TStL&W 9350-9449C.T.  Note that all these cars had the C.T. suffix “which was to be the same height as the car number”.

Now here’s some speculation: I have seen a picture of a LE&W box car still in its full NYC style paint ,with LE&W initials and number,except that the NYC oval was patch painted over and “Nickel Plate Road”stencilled over it. Could it be that the same thing was done to Clover Leaf cars? It certainly seems plausible but is there any photo or company paperwork to document this? I have read that the NKP was aggressive about promoting its corporate identity in its early history as an independent road and this would fit with the LE&W example cited above. Any comments?

Larry King

 

 

PDF
USRA Circular CS-87.pdf

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