Five US Army Troop Cars
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One of my favorite photos from WWII is my dad standing in line to get on a Pullman troop sleeper which was taking him from Wendover, Utah to the west coast to get on the Cape Victory to take him to Tinian Island. I asked dad if he got to come back to the states after the war ended and he said "no". They were kept on Tinian with a 3rd atomic bomb in case the peace process broke down. They got to leave in January, 1946. The war ended in August, 1945, but the wartime railroad traffic did not. Best part was he got to ride a lot of trains and also experienced the North Platte Canteen.
Ken Vandevoort |
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Dave Nelson
Sorry. I do know when WWII ended. I wrongly assumed everyone would understand I was speaking of the past. Another example of why “write so as not to be misunderstood” is good advice.
Sorry for the confusion.
Dave Nelson
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Dennis Storzek via groups.io
On Sun, Nov 27, 2022 at 08:00 PM, Dave Nelson wrote:
You're kidding, right? The picture is 1949 while the war in Europe ended FOUR YEARS earlier. Wikipedia says that all were repatriated by early 1946. From what I've read elsewhere, transport of POWs was on par with transport of our own troops; coaches for day long trips, sleepers for longer trips, and I would imagine that included troop sleepers if that's what was available. Anyway, as others have said, the five cars in the photo were all kitchen cars, not sleepers. |
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Jim Crow coaches from the Mobile & Alabama?
-- Ken Adams Covid Variants may come and go but I choose to still live mostly in splendid Shelter In Place solitude Location: About half way up Walnut Creek Owner PlasticFreightCarBuilders@groups.io |
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Andy Laurent
Here are a couple images of a POW train arriving in Sturgeon Bay, WI in July 1945. The train includes (in other high-res images):
CB&Q 40' steel boxcar Pullman Hollywood Beach (assuming for guards) GM&O 215 coach CB&Q 4476 coach (there appears to be 3 identical Q clerestory-roof coaches following this car, with another 3 similar cars visible at the end of the train) Andy L. Madison, WI |
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spsalso
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Dave,
No, definitely NOT POWs... In addition to the fact that these are kitchens and the war was long over, POWs typically moved in coaches. The example I have seen is PRR P70 coaches, with wood blocks secured to the windows to allow them to open just enough for
ventilation but not to allow escape.
It is highly unlikely that pullmans would be used for POWs (except perhaps officers, but even there, I think it would be unlikely there as well) as there are too many places where the POWs could not be seen by the guards, not too mention that they were needed
for US troops.
It is also highly unlikely for POWs to move in freights. Every minute that they are not in a camp poses a danger, and the accompanying guards were not going to be subject to their cars (which were Pullmans) being unheated in the winter.
Regards,
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Dave Nelson <Western.Pacific.203@...>
Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2022 7:59 PM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> Subject: [EXT] Re: [RealSTMFC] Five US Army Troop Cars
1949, right?
FWIW there was a POW camp just north of Salt Lake City. German soldiers were shipped in from eastern ports. I have a vague recollection there were actual POW cars but I do not know if they were old Pullmans or these “War Emergency Pullmans”.
So 2 questions: Were there POW cars in the style shown in the photo? Given luxury accommodations weren’t high on the list of POW service would a POW load move in a freight train – a different sort of livestock load or as a passenger train?
Dave Nelson
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
On Behalf Of gary laakso
They are seen moving in a freight in 1949, complete with their Allied Full Cushion trucks:
Gary Laakso |
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Alex Schneider
Whatever else they were they weren’t transporting POWs. By 1949 German prisoners of war had been sent back to Europe. Some were repatriated, others forced to work in the UK and France for several more years, in violation of the Geneva Convention mandate for rapid repatriation. A handful escaped to avoid repatriation to Soviet-occupied areas.
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_prisoners_of_war_in_the_United_States
Smaller numbers of Italian and Japanese prisoners were also repatriated.
Alex Schneider
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io]
On Behalf Of Dave Nelson
Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2022 8:00 PM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Five US Army Troop Cars
1949, right?
FWIW there was a POW camp just north of Salt Lake City. German soldiers were shipped in from eastern ports. I have a vague recollection there were actual POW cars but I do not know if they were old Pullmans or these “War Emergency Pullmans”.
So 2 questions: Were there POW cars in the style shown in the photo? Given luxury accommodations weren’t high on the list of POW service would a POW load move in a freight train – a different sort of livestock load or as a passenger train?
Dave Nelson
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
On Behalf Of gary laakso
They are seen moving in a freight in 1949, complete with their Allied Full Cushion trucks:
Gary Laakso |
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Curt Fortenberry
As Bruce noted, the railroads acquired the former troop cars through intermediaries. The Alaska Railroad (then a federal entity), acquired all the former troop cars at the end of WW2. Many came to Alaska, but many were converted by Chicago Freight car then resold. ARR apparently worked a deal such that CFCP acquired cars in trade for the work they did for the ARR. Curt Fortenberry |
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Dennis Storzek
On Sun, Nov 27, 2022 at 08:00 PM, Dave Nelson wrote:
You're kidding, right? The picture is 1949 while the war in Europe ended FOUR YEARS earlier. Wikipedia says that all were repatriated by early 1946. From what I've read elsewhere, transport of POWs was on par with transport of our own troops; coaches for day long trips, sleepers for longer trips, and I would imagine that included troop sleepers if that's what was available. Anyway, as others have said, the five cars in the photo were all kitchen cars, not sleepers. Dennis Storzek Dennis Storzek |
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Dave Nelson
1949, right?
FWIW there was a POW camp just north of Salt Lake City. German soldiers were shipped in from eastern ports. I have a vague recollection there were actual POW cars but I do not know if they were old Pullmans or these “War Emergency Pullmans”.
So 2 questions: Were there POW cars in the style shown in the photo? Given luxury accommodations weren’t high on the list of POW service would a POW load move in a freight train – a different sort of livestock load or as a passenger train?
Dave Nelson
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of gary laakso
Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2022 8:27 AM To: RealSTMFC@groups.io Subject: [RealSTMFC] Five US Army Troop Cars
They are seen moving in a freight in 1949, complete with their Allied Full Cushion trucks:
Gary Laakso |
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And indeed, they are from the 1st, 1943 order of troop sleepers as they have the central step well.
Regards,
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Nelson Moyer <npmoyer@...>
Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2022 11:57 AM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> Subject: [EXT] Re: [RealSTMFC] Five US Army Troop Cars
These cars are the troop sleepers. Seats converted into multi-level bunk beds, something like four bunks high.
Nelson Moyer
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Hudson Leighton
The photos were dated by date the cars were built, and when the US Army stopped issuing that style of shoe. |
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Yes, all 5 are kitchen cars. Since they appear to be in original paint, I suspect this is a move to position them in storage. The cars sold to railroads were generally sold through an intermediary. In addition, it appears that, while the D&RGW did get ex-troop
cars, these were troop sleepers and not kitchens.
Regards,
Bruce Smith, Auburn, AL
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of BRIAN PAUL EHNI <bpehni@...>
Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2022 11:40 AM To: main@realstmfc.groups.io <main@realstmfc.groups.io> Subject: [EXT] Re: [RealSTMFC] Five US Army Troop Cars
Thanks!
Brian Ehni
(Sent from my iPhone)
On Nov 27, 2022, at 12:30 PM, Paul Doggett via groups.io <paul.doggett2472@...> wrote:
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Nelson Moyer
These cars are the troop sleepers. Seats converted into multi-level bunk beds, something like four bunks high.
Nelson Moyer
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Hudson Leighton
Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2022 11:54 AM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Five US Army Troop Cars
The photos were dated by date the cars were built, and when the US Army stopped issuing that style of shoe. |
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Nelson Moyer
Yes, they are troop kitchens. CB&Q bought a bunch and ran them as express cars with barred windows and Allied Trucks initially, then they plated over the windows and changed the trucks. After a while, the steam and signal lines were removed, and the cars were assigned to freight and MOW service.
I don’t know about D&RGW, but many roads bought surplus troop kitchens after the war to fill in for aged retired baggage cars until new ones could be built or bought.
Nelson Moyer
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Paul Doggett via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2022 11:30 AM To: main@realstmfc.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Five US Army Troop Cars
Gary
Are those the kitchen cars ? Paul Doggett
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Hudson Leighton
The photos were dated by date the cars were built, and when the US Army stopped issuing that style of shoe.
I never thought I would be consulting with a Army clothing expert to date RR photos. http://www.nprha.org/BRHS/BRHS_467_1_355.jpg http://www.nprha.org/BRHS/BRHS_467_1_356.jpg http://www.nprha.org/BRHS/BRHS_467_1_357.jpg http://www.nprha.org/BRHS/BRHS_467_1_358.jpg -Hudson |
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Sure look like it.
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Thanks! Brian Ehni (Sent from my iPhone) On Nov 27, 2022, at 12:30 PM, Paul Doggett via groups.io <paul.doggett2472@...> wrote:
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Paul Doggett
Gary
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Are those the kitchen cars ? Paul Doggett On 27 Nov 2022, at 16:27, gary laakso <vasa0vasa@...> wrote:
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Alex Schneider
Did Rio Grande buy such cars for conversion to express, MOW or whatever?
Alex Schneider
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io]
On Behalf Of gary laakso
Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2022 10:27 AM To: RealSTMFC@groups.io Subject: [RealSTMFC] Five US Army Troop Cars
They are seen moving in a freight in 1949, complete with their Allied Full Cushion trucks:
Gary Laakso
Northwest of Mike Brock |
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gary laakso
They are seen moving in a freight in 1949, complete with their Allied Full Cushion trucks:
Gary Laakso
Northwest of Mike Brock |
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