Date
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AC&F Tank Car Question
Ian Cranstone
Given that ARA-III cars were constructed between 1917 and 1927, with the specification being changed to ICC-103 in 1927, this breakdown is almost certainly generally true, although one supposes that there may have been a few exceptions built in 1927 (and possibly later if some Type 21's were built following the introduction of the Type 27).
Ian Cranstone
Osgoode, Ontario, Canada
lamontc@...
On 2022-12-18 13:12, erict1361@... wrote:
My question is" How can you tell an ACF Type 21 Tank car from a Type 27? Are all ACF ARA Spec III cars type 21? Are all Type 27 cars "Spec 103"?
Ian Cranstone
I'm not sure what the answer is here: the AAR noted that the ARA-III designation was obsolete for new construction effective July 1, 1927, which leaves a couple of possibilities – a stencilling error, or alternatively this is an older tank, possibly applied to a new underframe.
Ian Cranstone
Osgoode, Ontario, Canada
lamontc@...
On 2022-12-18 20:01, erict1361@... wrote:
Ian,
The particular car that I am referring to was built in 4-29 but shows an ARA Spec III designation. See photo. I cannot tell if it is indeed a Type 27 or Type 21 ACF Classification. See Photo:
Dave Parker
Eric:
1. I think the build date on your Gulf States cars is 4-28, not 4-29. Actually, I am certain of it, because this same photo is Kaminski's tank car book on page 112, and he gives the build date as 4-28.
2. If you look through the ACF lot lists available from Westerfield, you'll find that in 1927, 1928, and perhaps into 1929, there are lots of orders for "standard" tank cars. Some are designated as Type 21s, some as 27s, and I think I just saw a Type 28. This was a period of transition at ACF that I believe we have discussed here before. Working from memory, I believe that the advent of "true" Type 27s, i.e., those with the new frame length and overall geometry, didn't occur much before 1930. I also found your Gulf States car order -- lot 652, placed 3-7-28. It says "Type 21".
3. I recently built a P2000 Type 21 up into a Shell Eastern Products (SEPX) car, 8000 gals, that was built in 4-29. The ACF order called it a Type 27, but it clearly was indistinguishable (at least to me) from a Type 21; thus the use of the P2000 kit. I would also note that it had BOTH the ARA Spec III and the ICC 103 stenciled on the right side of the car above the pressure-test data. Again, transitions. Your photo is less clear, but I wouldn't be surprised if the ICC 103 stencil is there, hiding behind the handrail.
Hope this helps to solve your mystery.
--
Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA
1. I think the build date on your Gulf States cars is 4-28, not 4-29. Actually, I am certain of it, because this same photo is Kaminski's tank car book on page 112, and he gives the build date as 4-28.
2. If you look through the ACF lot lists available from Westerfield, you'll find that in 1927, 1928, and perhaps into 1929, there are lots of orders for "standard" tank cars. Some are designated as Type 21s, some as 27s, and I think I just saw a Type 28. This was a period of transition at ACF that I believe we have discussed here before. Working from memory, I believe that the advent of "true" Type 27s, i.e., those with the new frame length and overall geometry, didn't occur much before 1930. I also found your Gulf States car order -- lot 652, placed 3-7-28. It says "Type 21".
3. I recently built a P2000 Type 21 up into a Shell Eastern Products (SEPX) car, 8000 gals, that was built in 4-29. The ACF order called it a Type 27, but it clearly was indistinguishable (at least to me) from a Type 21; thus the use of the P2000 kit. I would also note that it had BOTH the ARA Spec III and the ICC 103 stenciled on the right side of the car above the pressure-test data. Again, transitions. Your photo is less clear, but I wouldn't be surprised if the ICC 103 stencil is there, hiding behind the handrail.
Hope this helps to solve your mystery.
--
Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA
Tony Thompson
Eric Thur wrote:
I was looking to build a Gulf States Creosoting tank car model from an extra 8K tank car kit I have in my collection. Looking at the prototype photo in the ACF Tank car book. The car is listed a built 3/29 and is ARA Spec III. It looks short without rivets on the tank cradle supports, like Type 27 cars have. I noticed that Type 27 cars are labeled as " ICC 103".
My question . . . Are all ACF ARA Spec III cars type 21? Are all Type 27 cars "Spec 103”?
The ARA Spec. III was changed in 1927 to ICC 103. Many pre-1927 tank cars continued to carry the Spec. III lettering for decades. But it is a general category, not restricted to AC&F cars nor to types 21 or 27.
Tony Thompson
tony@...
Looks like a Type 21, based on the length. 8000 gallons. The P2K car should work.
Steve Hile
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of erict1361@...
Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2022 7:02 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] AC&F Tank Car Question
Ian,
The particular car that I am referring to was built in 4-29 but shows an ARA Spec III designation. See photo. I cannot tell if it is indeed a Type 27 or Type 21 ACF Classification. See Photo:
Eric
Jason P
If anyone out there has decorated one of these Gulf States Creosoting cars I would appreciate input on the color of yellow that anyone has used in the past that appears close. Thanks in advance!
-Jason
On 12/18/2022 9:25 PM Dave Parker via groups.io <spottab@...> wrote:
Eric:
1. I think the build date on your Gulf States cars is 4-28, not 4-29. Actually, I am certain of it, because this same photo is Kaminski's tank car book on page 112, and he gives the build date as 4-28.
2. If you look through the ACF lot lists available from Westerfield, you'll find that in 1927, 1928, and perhaps into 1929, there are lots of orders for "standard" tank cars. Some are designated as Type 21s, some as 27s, and I think I just saw a Type 28. This was a period of transition at ACF that I believe we have discussed here before. Working from memory, I believe that the advent of "true" Type 27s, i.e., those with the new frame length and overall geometry, didn't occur much before 1930. I also found your Gulf States car order -- lot 652, placed 3-7-28. It says "Type 21".
3. I recently built a P2000 Type 21 up into a Shell Eastern Products (SEPX) car, 8000 gals, that was built in 4-29. The ACF order called it a Type 27, but it clearly was indistinguishable (at least to me) from a Type 21; thus the use of the P2000 kit. I would also note that it had BOTH the ARA Spec III and the ICC 103 stenciled on the right side of the car above the pressure-test data. Again, transitions. Your photo is less clear, but I wouldn't be surprised if the ICC 103 stencil is there, hiding behind the handrail.
Hope this helps to solve your mystery.
--
Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA
Neat paint scheme but would it have lasted long ? In creosote service ??
In this scheme it probably should have KC brakes. And arch bar trucks! :-)
On 12/19/2022 3:52 PM, Allen Cain wrote:
Jason,
FWIW Intermountain MAY do this car in HO scale. It is on their "Reservation" list.
But then, this is where a lot of models go to die, the Intermountain Reservation List.
Allen Cain
--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts
Larry Smith
Its been on the reservation list for at least 4 years
Larry Smith
On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 06:29:36 PM CST, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:
Neat paint scheme but would it have lasted long ? In creosote service ??
In this scheme it probably should have KC brakes. And arch bar trucks! :-)
On 12/19/2022 3:52 PM, Allen Cain wrote:
Jason,
FWIW
Intermountain MAY do this car in HO scale. It is on their
"Reservation" list.
But then, this
is where a lot of models go to die, the Intermountain
Reservation List.
Allen
Cain
--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts
What often happens with fabulous paint schemes is that Athearn or Walthers find out
and apply it as soon as possible to one of their lower-end, inappropriate foobie models
and take out 90% of the target market. I know a hobby shop with dozens of Athearn
'blue box' RTR models on display and they're very impressive looking!
But yeah Intermountain should call it a 'wish list' and keep a ticker (counter) of people
who have expressed interest... I know the number is not huge. My club only had to buy
1 gross (144 cars) to get custom painted IRC models (in 2 schemes). At dealer net.
On 12/19/2022 8:11 PM, Larry Smith wrote:
Its been on the reservation list for at least 4 years
Larry Smith
On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 06:29:36 PM CST, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:
Neat paint scheme but would it have lasted long ? In creosote service ??
In this scheme it probably should have KC brakes. And arch bar trucks! :-)
On 12/19/2022 3:52 PM, Allen Cain wrote:
Jason,
FWIW Intermountain MAY do this car in HO scale. It is on their "Reservation" list.
But then, this is where a lot of models go to die, the Intermountain Reservation List.
Allen Cain
--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts
Dave Parker
Um, since the Intermountain car is a Type 27, and we previously determined that GSCX 24 is a Type 21, why are spending time discussing IM's business practices?
Actually, the art shown on the IM site is not complicated, and provides another example of how helpful it can be to learn to make your own decals. Staring with an old P2000 kit, you can come up with something similar to this model:
--
Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA
Actually, the art shown on the IM site is not complicated, and provides another example of how helpful it can be to learn to make your own decals. Staring with an old P2000 kit, you can come up with something similar to this model:
--
Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA
Alex Schneider
The DuPage Division of NMRA decided to get on the custom painted freight car bandwagon and bought a couple hundred blue Athearn tank cars marked DPDX. Unfortunately, the craze was over by the time they arrived, and subsequent division officers
tried everything they could think of to dispose of them and recover some of our investment. Eventually they were marked down below the price of an undecorated car and I bought a couple to strip and repaint. In black with simple lettering, they were adequate
"background" cars.
Alex Schneider
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...>
Sent: Monday, December 19, 2022 7:19:25 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] AC&F Tank Car Question
Sent: Monday, December 19, 2022 7:19:25 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] AC&F Tank Car Question
What often happens with fabulous paint schemes is that Athearn or Walthers find out
and apply it as soon as possible to one of their lower-end, inappropriate foobie models
and take out 90% of the target market. I know a hobby shop with dozens of Athearn
'blue box' RTR models on display and they're very impressive looking!
But yeah Intermountain should call it a 'wish list' and keep a ticker (counter) of people
who have expressed interest... I know the number is not huge. My club only had to buy
1 gross (144 cars) to get custom painted IRC models (in 2 schemes). At dealer net.
On 12/19/2022 8:11 PM, Larry Smith wrote:
Its been on the reservation list for at least 4 years
Larry Smith
On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 06:29:36 PM CST, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:
Neat paint scheme but would it have lasted long ? In creosote service ??
In this scheme it probably should have KC brakes. And arch bar trucks! :-)
On 12/19/2022 3:52 PM, Allen Cain wrote:
Jason,
FWIW Intermountain MAY do this car in HO scale. It is on their "Reservation" list.
But then, this is where a lot of models go to die, the Intermountain Reservation List.
Allen Cain
--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts
Yep. Like Newton and The History Of Fishes. :-)
On 12/19/2022 8:34 PM, Alex Schneider wrote:
The DuPage Division of NMRA decided to get on the custom painted freight car bandwagon and bought a couple hundred blue Athearn tank cars marked DPDX. Unfortunately, the craze was over by the time they arrived, and subsequent division officers tried everything they could think of to dispose of them and recover some of our investment. Eventually they were marked down below the price of an undecorated car and I bought a couple to strip and repaint. In black with simple lettering, they were adequate "background" cars.
Alex Schneider
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...>
Sent: Monday, December 19, 2022 7:19:25 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] AC&F Tank Car Question
What often happens with fabulous paint schemes is that Athearn or Walthers find out
and apply it as soon as possible to one of their lower-end, inappropriate foobie models
and take out 90% of the target market. I know a hobby shop with dozens of Athearn
'blue box' RTR models on display and they're very impressive looking!
But yeah Intermountain should call it a 'wish list' and keep a ticker (counter) of people
who have expressed interest... I know the number is not huge. My club only had to buy
1 gross (144 cars) to get custom painted IRC models (in 2 schemes). At dealer net.
On 12/19/2022 8:11 PM, Larry Smith wrote:
Its been on the reservation list for at least 4 years
Larry Smith
On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 06:29:36 PM CST, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:
Neat paint scheme but would it have lasted long ? In creosote service ??
In this scheme it probably should have KC brakes. And arch bar trucks! :-)
On 12/19/2022 3:52 PM, Allen Cain wrote:
Jason,
FWIW Intermountain MAY do this car in HO scale. It is on their "Reservation" list.
But then, this is where a lot of models go to die, the Intermountain Reservation List.
Allen Cain
--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts
Larry Smith
Our region got into the same problem when they purchased 250 Englehardt covered hoppers. Their problem was the car was also produced by one of the companies at a much lower price. We finally got rid of the last ones last month, fortunately we broke even.
Larry Smith
On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 07:34:57 PM CST, Alex Schneider <hudson5450@...> wrote:
The DuPage Division of NMRA decided to get on the custom painted freight car bandwagon and bought a couple hundred blue Athearn tank cars marked DPDX. Unfortunately, the craze was over by the time they arrived, and subsequent division officers
tried everything they could think of to dispose of them and recover some of our investment. Eventually they were marked down below the price of an undecorated car and I bought a couple to strip and repaint. In black with simple lettering, they were adequate
"background" cars.
Alex Schneider
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...>
Sent: Monday, December 19, 2022 7:19:25 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] AC&F Tank Car Question
Sent: Monday, December 19, 2022 7:19:25 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] AC&F Tank Car Question
What often happens with fabulous paint schemes is that Athearn or Walthers find out
and apply it as soon as possible to one of their lower-end, inappropriate foobie models
and take out 90% of the target market. I know a hobby shop with dozens of Athearn
'blue box' RTR models on display and they're very impressive looking!
But yeah Intermountain should call it a 'wish list' and keep a ticker (counter) of people
who have expressed interest... I know the number is not huge. My club only had to buy
1 gross (144 cars) to get custom painted IRC models (in 2 schemes). At dealer net.
On 12/19/2022 8:11 PM, Larry Smith wrote:
Its been on the reservation list for at least 4 years
Larry Smith
On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 06:29:36 PM CST, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:
Neat paint scheme but would it have lasted long ? In creosote service ??
In this scheme it probably should have KC brakes. And arch bar trucks! :-)
On 12/19/2022 3:52 PM, Allen Cain wrote:
Jason,
FWIW Intermountain MAY do this car in HO scale. It is on their "Reservation" list.
But then, this is where a lot of models go to die, the Intermountain Reservation List.
Allen Cain
--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts