Laser Cutters (Topic Branched from GN 66247)
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irv_thomae
Richard Remiarz's GN flatcars and his acquisition of a 50 watt laser have each left me somewhat awestruck. He has also reminded me that for the past month or so, I've been wanting to find out more about lower power / lower cost laser cutters.
The steam-era HO scratch-building project driving my curiosity is a mill building with 29 window openings to be cut in clapboard siding, so I'm wondering if a 5 to 10W machine would be adequate for cutting through materials such as sheet basswood siding, 1/16" plywood, and/or "taskboard" - none of which would be even 3 mm thick. I cheerfully admit that this topic really doesn't seem to belong in this Group, but I wonder if anyone here either has looked into it, or can suggest an appropriate group or forum? Thanks, Irv Thomae located near White River Junction VT; modeling 1940-era scenes near Wells River VT |
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I have a couple of 100 watt lasers, but they are in no way lower cost. Mine are US made Universal Laser Products machines. New, they are in the $40,000 range. What I funny, is that I have been in the model railroading hobby for nearly 50 years and have owned lasers for the past 7. I have rarely ever used my lasers for hobby related purposes. To answer your question, the 5-10 watt machines are more for engraving rather than cutting. There are cheap lasers from China that are sold on ebay. From my understanding, they take quite a bit of fiddling around with them to make them preform to the level that a modeler would be happy with. The other issue with lasers is that you have to have a way to exhaust the fumes from what ever you are cutting or engraving. If you are going cheap, I would suggest budgeting around $4-5000. |
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Richard Remiarz
Irv,
The 5-10 Watt lasers are not fit for what you want to do. They are more for engraving or cutting thin materials like paper.
Cutting ability is determined by two things, laser power and the cutting speed. The lower the power the slower you have to cut. Even with a 50 W laser, for cutting 1/8” MDF the cutting speed is down to 20mm/sec with laser power at 70-75%. For 1/16” basswood I use 60-65% laser power at a speed of 40 mm/sec. Anything less than 30-40 W of power just isn’t capable of cutting through materials this thick.
Also keep in mind that the laser life is a function of time the laser is on and the % laser power you are running at. Driving a laser at full power for long lengths of time due to a slow cutting speed will decrease the laser life.
You can buy a 30-40 W laser engraver/cutter for around $1000 and a 50W version for around $2200.
Sincerely, Rich Remiarz
Sent from Mail for Windows
From: irv_thomae
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2023 10:28 PM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: [RealSTMFC] Laser Cutters (Topic Branched from GN 66247)
Richard Remiarz's GN flatcars and his acquisition of a 50 watt laser have each left me somewhat awestruck. He has also reminded me that for the past month or so, I've been
wanting to find out more about lower power / lower cost laser cutters.
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Clark Cooper
Irv,
toggle quoted message
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If you want to “try before you buy”, see if you can find a maker space somewhere near you. These places often have large laser cutters, 3D printers and other tools you can use for a nominal fee. The staff there should be able to help you get started. -Clark Cooper
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irv_thomae
Rich,
I really appreciate the advice. Truthfully, it wasn't what I had hoped to hear, but sometimes reality isn't fun. In fact, as a retiree with limited resources, even $1000 is more than twice what I can afford to invest. But that's why I'm grateful: you have spared me both from throwing away the few hundred dollars that I had been tempted to spend, and then from countless wasted hours of frustration trying to get an inadequate tool to work. Sincere thanks, Irv |
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irv_thomae
Clark,
After Rich's comments had convinced me that a laser with sufficient power is well beyond my limited budget, at first your "try before you buy" expression gave me just a rueful chuckle. On second thought, however, it's worth emphasizing that maker-space membership may well be the most cost-effective way to tackle a project like this one, and almost certainly the quickest way to acquire the necessary skills. Thanks for the suggestion, Irv |
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Ted Culotta
I haven't even turned it on yet, but I bought this after listening to Bill Schneider's clinic at Cocoa. He is using a 40W machine for cutting materials to scratchbuild structures. The results were impressive and after speaking with him, I took the plunge and bought this one. The work area is relatively small at 8x12, but so are the things I am doing. I will blog about my results in future as I have lots of ideas percolating... Perhaps Bill will chime in too. Cheers, Ted Ted Culotta Speedwitch Media |
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Ted
Now that's more like it !! I look forward to hearing about it. :-D Interested in finding out how well these work for cutting styrene replacement side sills, and car sides! On 2/3/2023 9:08 AM, Ted Culotta wrote:
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Tim O'Connor Sterling, Massachusetts |
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Richard Remiarz
 Works great! The photo shows the gondola parts. The sides have the locations marked for all of the grab irons and ribs, along with weld seams. The ends are made of layers that are stacked to give depth. On a properly tuned laser cutter parts can be within .001-.002”. The floor has the locations for all of the stringers, cross members and bolsters marked. Rich Temiarz Rich Remiarz On Feb 3, 2023, at 11:02 AM, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:
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steve_wintner
Somewhat related - Rene Gourley up in Vancouver has had success using a Cricut machine on styrene. It may be another option, for thin material. I don't know where they land on price etc.
Steve |
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Joseph
Tom Gasior in MN has also used his Crikut to great effect, making some excellent palm trees for a SoCal layout. I am hoping to design the M&StL doodlebugs for Crikut cutting. Someday…. Joe Binish Omaha, today On Fri, Feb 3, 2023 at 1:31 PM steve_wintner via groups.io <steve_wintner=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote: Somewhat related - Rene Gourley up in Vancouver has had success using a Cricut machine on styrene. It may be another option, for thin material. I don't know where they land on price etc. |
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Rich
That is amazing to me. So the laser does not heat the plastic when it cuts into it? I never considered that it was possible to "etch" styrene, but I can see how useful that is! Not apropos to the STMFC, but I'd love to precisely cut filler patches for the Atlas ACF "Precision Design" box cars (just about .005 deep) to backdate them to earlier ACF box cars. Did you have to buy and have to learn to use a separate package of CAD software ? On 2/3/2023 1:28 PM, Richard Remiarz wrote:
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Tim O'Connor Sterling, Massachusetts |
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Richard Remiarz
Tim,
Styrene is by far the most difficult material I have worked with. It does melt as it cuts. The key is to use as little laser power and as high a speed as you can while still cutting through the material. In addition, you need good ventilation because the fumes are toxic. I have my laser cutter next to my paint spray booth and use the exhaust fan and ducting to vent the laser cutter (which also has a ventilation fan).
“Etchin" the styrene keeps the heat down and is fairly easy. Cutting all the way through usually leaves a small ridge on one side of the part. In addition, the width of the cut is much wider with styrene than other materials. This is where a better laser cutter with a better controller and software is an advantage. With my cutter, I draw the parts to be what I want the final size to be. In the laser cutter software you can identify cuts as inside cuts or outside cuts. Then you can enter the kerf (width of the cut). The software automatically adjusts the cut so that the part ends up the final size. On outside cuts it cuts outside the lines you draw by half of the kerf. On inside cuts it cuts inside the opening. In styrene the width of the cut is around .010” for my laser settings, as compared to .004” for material like wood or laser board. The extra thickness of the cut is due to material melting away instead of just cutting.
The kerf will vary based on material thickness, laser power, and cutting speed. You also adjust the height of the laser head based on the thickness of the material. I am developing a library of settings (speed, laser power, and kerf) based on the material, thickness, and the type of cut (cut, shallow scribe, deep scribe, etc.). While outside the topic of this list, you can easily scribe bricks, concrete blocks, etc. for structures.
Here is where you are better off paying slightly more for a better machine with a better controller. Simpler machines don’t adjust for the width of the cut. You have to design it into the part. In the case of the gondolas I started with .030” material for the sides and floor. I was able to switch to .020” and still have the strength that I needed. I used the same drawing, just changed the speed and power settings and the kerf correction value, without having to change the drawing. I was at Prototype Rails in Cocoa Beach and talked to Bill Schneider after his clinic where he described using his laser cutter. We have both used the cutters for more things than we expected when we first bought them. However, Bill said that for his cutter he adjusts the drawing for the width of the cut.
There is definitely a learning curve. I have used CadRail since the mid-1990s to design my layout. Now I am using CadRail to design my parts, so there was no addition CAD software cost for me. It doesn’t have to be a high end CAD program.
I was finishing a auxiliary water car for a steam engine and the prototype had headlights mounted on either end. I wanted to add lenses to the steam locomotive headlights that were used, but wasn’t sure how to cut them. Then I thought of the laser cutter, and within 15 minutes I had perfectly sized lenses cut from .005” styrene. A friend (Joe Binish) was building some NP boxcars for a friend and Joe wanted to add the DF logos that were mounted on the doors on a round plate. Again, about 15 minutes to design the parts, convert the CAD drawing to the proper format, fire up the laser cutter, adjust the settings, and have enough part for multiple cars.
Sincerely, Rich Remiarz
Sent from Mail for Windows
From: Tim O'Connor
Sent: Friday, February 3, 2023 2:34 PM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Cc: bbfcl@groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Laser Cutters (Topic Branched from GN 66247)
Rich
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Aley, Jeff A
One small clarification: the ability of a laser cutter to compensate for the “kerf” is technically in the software, and not the hardware. So if one is buying a laser, one will want to buy one whose software supports kerf compensation (as Rich described). Many lasers can be operated using 3rd-party software called “Lightburn”, which does support kerf compensation. So it’s worth investigating. Oddly, I think some of the really expensive lasers don’t support kerf compensation (and are not usable with Lightburn).
On the subject of cost, there are basically three kinds of lasers that could be used for making steam-era freight cars. The first kind are very high-quality, very reliable, and very expensive. Think of a Lexus automobile. It’ll work EVERY TIME (even if you’re making kits for a living) and there’s service after the sale. Brands like Epilog, Trotec, and Universal Laser Systems (ULS) fall into this category.
The second kind are the cheap Chinese lasers. I have one of these, and so does Rich. Mine was under $2,000, and has a cutting area of 20” x 12”, and a 50 watt tube. It’s a bit like an unrestored 1970 Camaro. If you know how to work on it, it’s a solid machine, and it’ll get me to the hobby shop the same way a Lexus will. But I’m not surprised if I have to a bit of adjusting or an occasional repair.
The third kind are the “K40” lasers. These tend to be “40 Watt” (actually 35W), 8.5” x 11”. They’re more like a 1980 Yugo. They’re really cheap, and fine for a bit of hobby use. They’re not very well-made. You might get a lemon. But you could tune it up and make it a decent machine, if you’re interested in doing so.
Regards,
-Jeff
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Richard Remiarz
Sent: Friday, February 3, 2023 1:25 PM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Cc: bbfcl@groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Laser Cutters (Topic Branched from GN 66247)
Tim,
Styrene is by far the most difficult material I have worked with. It does melt as it cuts. The key is to use as little laser power and as high a speed as you can while still cutting through the material. In addition, you need good ventilation because the fumes are toxic. I have my laser cutter next to my paint spray booth and use the exhaust fan and ducting to vent the laser cutter (which also has a ventilation fan).
“Etchin" the styrene keeps the heat down and is fairly easy. Cutting all the way through usually leaves a small ridge on one side of the part. In addition, the width of the cut is much wider with styrene than other materials. This is where a better laser cutter with a better controller and software is an advantage. With my cutter, I draw the parts to be what I want the final size to be. In the laser cutter software you can identify cuts as inside cuts or outside cuts. Then you can enter the kerf (width of the cut). The software automatically adjusts the cut so that the part ends up the final size. On outside cuts it cuts outside the lines you draw by half of the kerf. On inside cuts it cuts inside the opening. In styrene the width of the cut is around .010” for my laser settings, as compared to .004” for material like wood or laser board. The extra thickness of the cut is due to material melting away instead of just cutting.
The kerf will vary based on material thickness, laser power, and cutting speed. You also adjust the height of the laser head based on the thickness of the material. I am developing a library of settings (speed, laser power, and kerf) based on the material, thickness, and the type of cut (cut, shallow scribe, deep scribe, etc.). While outside the topic of this list, you can easily scribe bricks, concrete blocks, etc. for structures.
Here is where you are better off paying slightly more for a better machine with a better controller. Simpler machines don’t adjust for the width of the cut. You have to design it into the part. In the case of the gondolas I started with .030” material for the sides and floor. I was able to switch to .020” and still have the strength that I needed. I used the same drawing, just changed the speed and power settings and the kerf correction value, without having to change the drawing. I was at Prototype Rails in Cocoa Beach and talked to Bill Schneider after his clinic where he described using his laser cutter. We have both used the cutters for more things than we expected when we first bought them. However, Bill said that for his cutter he adjusts the drawing for the width of the cut.
There is definitely a learning curve. I have used CadRail since the mid-1990s to design my layout. Now I am using CadRail to design my parts, so there was no addition CAD software cost for me. It doesn’t have to be a high end CAD program.
I was finishing a auxiliary water car for a steam engine and the prototype had headlights mounted on either end. I wanted to add lenses to the steam locomotive headlights that were used, but wasn’t sure how to cut them. Then I thought of the laser cutter, and within 15 minutes I had perfectly sized lenses cut from .005” styrene. A friend (Joe Binish) was building some NP boxcars for a friend and Joe wanted to add the DF logos that were mounted on the doors on a round plate. Again, about 15 minutes to design the parts, convert the CAD drawing to the proper format, fire up the laser cutter, adjust the settings, and have enough part for multiple cars.
Sincerely, Rich Remiarz
Sent from Mail for Windows
From: Tim O'Connor
Rich
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Dennis Storzek
On Fri, Feb 3, 2023 at 03:25 PM, Richard Remiarz wrote:
If I recall correctly what I was told some twenty years ago when I looked into it, high impact styrene cuts poorly because the synthetic rubber used as the 'impact modifier' does not vaporize cleanly, but instead absorbs heat and melts. I believe I was told this is due to the wavelength of the laser, although here at the low end of the market we don't get a choice. Instead companies that cut a lot of plastic tend to use acrylic, which cuts beautifully. Since clear acrylic sheet is available in multiple thicknesses, and solvent bonds just like styrene, it may be worth trying some. Dennis Storzek |
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Richard Remiarz
Jeff is correct. The kerf correction is in the software. The laser cutter I have has the correction as an option in the software which controls the laser cutter. I am currently using the software that came with the cutter (RDWorks) but am considering upgrading to Lightburn to overcome some issues in RDWorks.
The process I use is to create a drawing in CadRail, export the drawing in a DXF format, start RDWorks, import the DXF file, scale the drawing in RDWorks, set the parameters for the various types of cut, then save the file in RDWorks (RLD format). Now you can run as many parts as you want. This seemed overwhelming at first, but now it is second nature.
I included the photo I previously posted to make a point on kerf correction. You will notice that the bottom floor has small tabs on the side. They fit into the small holes cut into the sides, aligning the bottom floor at the correct height. You will notice that one of the holes in the side is much larger than the others. That was my error. On that particular opening I labelled the opening as an outside cut instead of an inside cut. With the large kerf cutting styrene, it made a significant difference in the opening. Fortunately the flanges on the rib were large enough to cover the opening.
Jeff has been my mentor for laser cutters. He is the one that walked me through the purchase, set-up and initial use of the laser, and has helped with other problems I have encountered. I am fortunate in that my laser cutter was set up very well and I had to do minimal adjustments when fine-tuning the cutter.
My biggest issue was not understanding kerf correction properly and how to turn it on during my first project, so in places I used the brute force method and changed the drawing to get the parts the correct size. With a couple more projects under my belt, now I feel very comfortable with the technology, and feel confident in getting finished parts the size that I expect. The problem is when I am in a hurry and make mistakes in the set-up.
Sincerely, Rich Remiarz
Sent from Mail for Windows
From: Aley, Jeff A
Sent: Friday, February 3, 2023 4:44 PM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Cc: bbfcl@groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Laser Cutters (Topic Branched from GN 66247)
One small clarification: the ability of a laser cutter to compensate for the “kerf” is technically in the software, and not the hardware. So if one is buying a laser, one will want to buy one whose software supports kerf compensation (as Rich described). Many lasers can be operated using 3rd-party software called “Lightburn”, which does support kerf compensation. So it’s worth investigating. Oddly, I think some of the really expensive lasers don’t support kerf compensation (and are not usable with Lightburn).
On the subject of cost, there are basically three kinds of lasers that could be used for making steam-era freight cars. The first kind are very high-quality, very reliable, and very expensive. Think of a Lexus automobile. It’ll work EVERY TIME (even if you’re making kits for a living) and there’s service after the sale. Brands like Epilog, Trotec, and Universal Laser Systems (ULS) fall into this category.
The second kind are the cheap Chinese lasers. I have one of these, and so does Rich. Mine was under $2,000, and has a cutting area of 20” x 12”, and a 50 watt tube. It’s a bit like an unrestored 1970 Camaro. If you know how to work on it, it’s a solid machine, and it’ll get me to the hobby shop the same way a Lexus will. But I’m not surprised if I have to a bit of adjusting or an occasional repair.
The third kind are the “K40” lasers. These tend to be “40 Watt” (actually 35W), 8.5” x 11”. They’re more like a 1980 Yugo. They’re really cheap, and fine for a bit of hobby use. They’re not very well-made. You might get a lemon. But you could tune it up and make it a decent machine, if you’re interested in doing so.
Regards,
-Jeff
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akerboomk
A suggestion – Do a “test piece” program
A whole bunch of parallel lines (or whatever shape) spaced out over the width of the bed and vary the speeds/power settings from min to max , e.g. - Line 1 @ 10% speed and 10% power - Line 2 @ 10% speed and 20% power - Etc. - Line “n” at 100% speed and 100% power
I’m using 10% increments, depending on your platform size and dealing with the tedium of programming it, there’s no reason you can’t do 5% or 2% increments
I’m assuming “too much power” will not irreparably harm something (set piece on fire, cut thru platen that supports material, etc.). If so (I’m assuming) you can program a “stop” after each pass so you can look at the part and either continue or exit the program?
Same program can be used on different materials & thicknesses to figure out “best” settings for each material
And don’t forget to have the laser etch in the power / speed settings for each line – so you know which is which :-)
Ken -- Ken Akerboom http://bmfreightcars.com/ |
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