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MILW 79003 Tankcar

Tim O'Connor
 


Thank you Ed for compiling all of that data. All of which demonstrates the complexity
of trying to model the real world accurately !

On 2/8/2023 4:32 PM, Ed Hawkins wrote:

On Feb 7, 2023, at 6:23 PM, Dave Parker via groups.io <spottab@...> wrote:

On Tue, Feb 7, 2023 at 02:43 PM, David wrote:
ACF did switch to 3-course 10k tanks in the mid-1920s.
My observations agree with what David is saying.  Flipping through all my Type 21 builders photos, it looks like the switch occurred from 1925 (4-course tanks) to 1926 (3-course).  Maybe not a hard shift, but I haven't seen an exception. (There is one oddball from 2/20:  Magnolia (MPCX) 618 looks like a 3-course 10-kgal car, but car 777 built one month later is 4-course).

The 1927-29 years embrace that period when ACF was building "Type 27" cars that looked just like Type 21s.  The longer frame seems to have come on line ca. 1930.  
 
-- 
Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA

Dave, Tim, Todd & others interested,
Just to share some info about this topic, over the span of about 5 years ACF developed 3 sets of drawings applicable to Type 21 & an early-version Type 27 tank cars as Dave accurately stated that were dimensionally very similar to the earlier Type 21’s. General arrangement drawings from the ACF drawing collection at the National Museum of Transportation all denote 9’-3” for the underframe width. Varying underframe dimensions are defined below. For the common 8,000-gallon & 10,000-gallon Type 21 & early-version Type 27 tank cars, the tanks were 28’-0” long. Tank inside diameters were 83” (8,000 gal.) and 92 1/2" (10,000 gal.). Viewing these drawings would likely spot various design changes in addition to the dimensional differences.

1. Type 21 general arrangement drawing 6569219, dated 9/5/1922 (generally used for ARA III & IV cars)
32’-5 7/8” over end sills
22’-8” truck centers

A Type 21 sample car built to the above design was lot 9468, ACFX 10032, built 1-23 (10,000 gallons, ARA III, 4-course tank). Two builder photos of ACFX 10032 are on the Barriger Flickr website. However, 3 slightly later lot numbers 9472, 9475 & 9476 show Type 21 cars built earlier than ACFX 10032. Three orders with 11-22 build dates are RBGX 102 (8K, ARA III), DAX 25-26 (10K, ARA III) & EJRR&TCo. 1210-1242? (33 cars, 10K, ARA III). Builder photos of all 3 of these lots are also on the Barriger Flickr website. Since the ACF lot list from this period provides only a cursory description of the cars to be built and in these cases didn’t identify the “type” number, I suppose it’s possible that these 3 lots built 11-22 could be late Type 20 tank cars rather than early Type 21. 

2. Type 21 general arrangement drawing 3577819, dated 2/8/1927 (generally used for ARA III & IV cars)
32’-5 5/8” over end sills
22’-9” truck centers

The final ARA III that I can determine was lot 547, MSWRY X1000-X1005 built 11-27 (7,000 gallons, ARA III, 3-course tank). 

3. Type 27 general arrangement drawing 3578849, dated 11/5/1927 (generally used for ICC-103 cars)
32’-5 5/8” over end sills
21’-11 1/2” truck centers

The earliest Type 27 with the short underframe that I have documented is lot 564, SHPX 10468-10469, built 12-27 (10,000 gallons, ICC-103). 

It’s noted that these initial Type 27 design came at the approximate time that the ARA roman numeral class designations were changed to ICC classifications such as ICC-103 that replaced ARA III. Production of these early-version Type 27 tank cars ceased with lot 1079, SHPX 10740-10761, built 10-29 (10,000 gallons, ICC-103). However, one last car assigned an earlier lot no. 1056 had a build date of 12-29 (PSMX 246-250, 7,000 gallons, ICC-103A).

Does anyone know if by chance the switch from ARA to ICC classifications had anything to do with the truck centers being shortened by 9 1/2 inches? 

Following are some approximate quantities of 8K & 10K-gallon cars built from the different groups of Type 21, 8,000 & 10,000-gallon ARA III and early-version Type 27 ICC-103 tank cars (all uninsulated, single-compartment). The quantities are approximate due to me not having photos or drawings that pertain to every lot number. Not in these counts are ACF tank cars of other designs lacking rolled channel side & end sills, designated as Type 25, 25A, 26, and 28. These cars used the same tanks as the Type 21 and early-Type 27 cars. 

Type 21, 8,000 gal., ARA III, 3-course tank - 1,926 cars, built 11-22 to 7-27, lot no. range 9472 to 10015 plus 14 to 519
Type 27, 8,000 gal., ICC-103, 3-course tank - 627 cars, built 11-27 to 10-29, lot no. range 566 to 1020 **

Type 21, 10,000 gal., ARA III, 4-course tank - 1,118 cars, built ca. 11-22 to 6-25; lot no. range 9468 to 9976, plus lot 13.
Type 21, 10,000 gal., ARA III, unknown if 3-course or 4 course tanks - 416 cars, 6 lots built ca. 12-24 to 4-25; lot no. range 9921-9948, 9982, 9990.
Type 21, 10,000 gal., ARA III, 3-course tank - 1,094 cars, built ca. 2-26 to 10-27; lot no. range 136 to 531.
Type 27, 10,000 gal., ICC-103, 3-course tank - 527 cars, built ca. 12-27 to 10-29; lot no. range 552 to 1079.

** While all cars in the above Type 27 groups denote ICC-103 stencils, some lots were specified as Type 21. It’s apparent the requirement for ICC-103 stencils occurred before all tank cars using ACF general arrangement drawing 3577819 were completed & delivered. Thus, some of these tank cars with ICC-103 stencils were built to Type 21 specs per the 2nd general arrangement drawing 3577819 instead of the 3rd general arrangement drawing 3578849.

Dave, as you noted the longer-version Type 27’s were first built in 10-29.  The earliest ICC-103 order of 8K & 10K-gallon cars I have documented is lot 1011, STLX 81-90, built 10-29 to 5-30 (8,000 gallons). Numerous other lots followed into early 1930 thru lot 1089, HPDX 401-410, built 1-30 (10,000 gallons, ICC-103). These Type 27 tank cars cars were nearly 4’ longer than the original design with the length over center sills of 36’-2 3/8” and 25’-8 1/4” truck centers. The tanks were accordingly lengthened and made smaller in diameter.

8,000 gallons - 78” inside diameter, 31’-6” length 
10,000 gallons - 87 1/4” inside diameter, 31’-6” length

Some may recall my two articles in RP CYC Volumes 2 and 3 that pertain to these longer-version 8K & 10K-gallon Type 27 tank cars built from ca. 10-29, thru the 1930s & into the 1940s. 

Regards,
Ed Hawkins


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts
Ed Hawkins
 



On Feb 7, 2023, at 6:23 PM, Dave Parker via groups.io <spottab@...> wrote:

On Tue, Feb 7, 2023 at 02:43 PM, David wrote:
ACF did switch to 3-course 10k tanks in the mid-1920s.
My observations agree with what David is saying.  Flipping through all my Type 21 builders photos, it looks like the switch occurred from 1925 (4-course tanks) to 1926 (3-course).  Maybe not a hard shift, but I haven't seen an exception. (There is one oddball from 2/20:  Magnolia (MPCX) 618 looks like a 3-course 10-kgal car, but car 777 built one month later is 4-course).

The 1927-29 years embrace that period when ACF was building "Type 27" cars that looked just like Type 21s.  The longer frame seems to have come on line ca. 1930.  
 
-- 
Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA

Dave, Tim, Todd & others interested,
Just to share some info about this topic, over the span of about 5 years ACF developed 3 sets of drawings applicable to Type 21 & an early-version Type 27 tank cars as Dave accurately stated that were dimensionally very similar to the earlier Type 21’s. General arrangement drawings from the ACF drawing collection at the National Museum of Transportation all denote 9’-3” for the underframe width. Varying underframe dimensions are defined below. For the common 8,000-gallon & 10,000-gallon Type 21 & early-version Type 27 tank cars, the tanks were 28’-0” long. Tank inside diameters were 83” (8,000 gal.) and 92 1/2" (10,000 gal.). Viewing these drawings would likely spot various design changes in addition to the dimensional differences.

1. Type 21 general arrangement drawing 6569219, dated 9/5/1922 (generally used for ARA III & IV cars)
32’-5 7/8” over end sills
22’-8” truck centers

A Type 21 sample car built to the above design was lot 9468, ACFX 10032, built 1-23 (10,000 gallons, ARA III, 4-course tank). Two builder photos of ACFX 10032 are on the Barriger Flickr website. However, 3 slightly later lot numbers 9472, 9475 & 9476 show Type 21 cars built earlier than ACFX 10032. Three orders with 11-22 build dates are RBGX 102 (8K, ARA III), DAX 25-26 (10K, ARA III) & EJRR&TCo. 1210-1242? (33 cars, 10K, ARA III). Builder photos of all 3 of these lots are also on the Barriger Flickr website. Since the ACF lot list from this period provides only a cursory description of the cars to be built and in these cases didn’t identify the “type” number, I suppose it’s possible that these 3 lots built 11-22 could be late Type 20 tank cars rather than early Type 21. 

2. Type 21 general arrangement drawing 3577819, dated 2/8/1927 (generally used for ARA III & IV cars)
32’-5 5/8” over end sills
22’-9” truck centers

The final ARA III that I can determine was lot 547, MSWRY X1000-X1005 built 11-27 (7,000 gallons, ARA III, 3-course tank). 

3. Type 27 general arrangement drawing 3578849, dated 11/5/1927 (generally used for ICC-103 cars)
32’-5 5/8” over end sills
21’-11 1/2” truck centers

The earliest Type 27 with the short underframe that I have documented is lot 564, SHPX 10468-10469, built 12-27 (10,000 gallons, ICC-103). 

It’s noted that these initial Type 27 design came at the approximate time that the ARA roman numeral class designations were changed to ICC classifications such as ICC-103 that replaced ARA III. Production of these early-version Type 27 tank cars ceased with lot 1079, SHPX 10740-10761, built 10-29 (10,000 gallons, ICC-103). However, one last car assigned an earlier lot no. 1056 had a build date of 12-29 (PSMX 246-250, 7,000 gallons, ICC-103A).

Does anyone know if by chance the switch from ARA to ICC classifications had anything to do with the truck centers being shortened by 9 1/2 inches? 

Following are some approximate quantities of 8K & 10K-gallon cars built from the different groups of Type 21, 8,000 & 10,000-gallon ARA III and early-version Type 27 ICC-103 tank cars (all uninsulated, single-compartment). The quantities are approximate due to me not having photos or drawings that pertain to every lot number. Not in these counts are ACF tank cars of other designs lacking rolled channel side & end sills, designated as Type 25, 25A, 26, and 28. These cars used the same tanks as the Type 21 and early-Type 27 cars. 

Type 21, 8,000 gal., ARA III, 3-course tank - 1,926 cars, built 11-22 to 7-27, lot no. range 9472 to 10015 plus 14 to 519
Type 27, 8,000 gal., ICC-103, 3-course tank - 627 cars, built 11-27 to 10-29, lot no. range 566 to 1020 **

Type 21, 10,000 gal., ARA III, 4-course tank - 1,118 cars, built ca. 11-22 to 6-25; lot no. range 9468 to 9976, plus lot 13.
Type 21, 10,000 gal., ARA III, unknown if 3-course or 4 course tanks - 416 cars, 6 lots built ca. 12-24 to 4-25; lot no. range 9921-9948, 9982, 9990.
Type 21, 10,000 gal., ARA III, 3-course tank - 1,094 cars, built ca. 2-26 to 10-27; lot no. range 136 to 531.
Type 27, 10,000 gal., ICC-103, 3-course tank - 527 cars, built ca. 12-27 to 10-29; lot no. range 552 to 1079.

** While all cars in the above Type 27 groups denote ICC-103 stencils, some lots were specified as Type 21. It’s apparent the requirement for ICC-103 stencils occurred before all tank cars using ACF general arrangement drawing 3577819 were completed & delivered. Thus, some of these tank cars with ICC-103 stencils were built to Type 21 specs per the 2nd general arrangement drawing 3577819 instead of the 3rd general arrangement drawing 3578849.

Dave, as you noted the longer-version Type 27’s were first built in 10-29.  The earliest ICC-103 order of 8K & 10K-gallon cars I have documented is lot 1011, STLX 81-90, built 10-29 to 5-30 (8,000 gallons). Numerous other lots followed into early 1930 thru lot 1089, HPDX 401-410, built 1-30 (10,000 gallons, ICC-103). These Type 27 tank cars cars were nearly 4’ longer than the original design with the length over center sills of 36’-2 3/8” and 25’-8 1/4” truck centers. The tanks were accordingly lengthened and made smaller in diameter.

8,000 gallons - 78” inside diameter, 31’-6” length 
10,000 gallons - 87 1/4” inside diameter, 31’-6” length

Some may recall my two articles in RP CYC Volumes 2 and 3 that pertain to these longer-version 8K & 10K-gallon Type 27 tank cars built from ca. 10-29, thru the 1930s & into the 1940s. 

Regards,
Ed Hawkins
Dave Parker
 

On Tue, Feb 7, 2023 at 02:43 PM, David wrote:
ACF did switch to 3-course 10k tanks in the mid-1920s.
My observations agree with what David is saying.  Flipping through all my Type 21 builders photos, it looks like the switch occurred from 1925 (4-course tanks) to 1926 (3-course).  Maybe not a hard shift, but I haven't seen an exception. (There is one oddball from 2/20:  Magnolia (MPCX) 618 looks like a 3-course 10-kgal car, but car 777 built one month later is 4-course).

The 1927-29 years embrace that period when ACF was building "Type 27" cars that looked just like Type 21s.  The longer frame seems to have come on line ca. 1930. 
 
--
Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA
David
 

Most Type 21 8k tanks are 3 courses, while most of the 10k tanks are 4 courses. I don't know
if there were any 3-course 10k cars.
ACF did switch to 3-course 10k tanks in the mid-1920s.

David Thompson

Todd Sullivan
 

Thank you, Tim, for the clarification.

Todd Sullivan
Tim O'Connor
 

Todd

MILW 79096 is stenciled 8110 gallons, so that is why I said it was not a 10,000 gallon car. :-)

Most Type 21 8k tanks are 3 courses, while most of the 10k tanks are 4 courses. I don't know
if there were any 3-course 10k cars.


On 2/6/2023 2:21 PM, Todd Sullivan via groups.io wrote:

Tim,

I'm puzzled by your remark about 'its smaller -- 8000 gallons'.

I compared the photo of the MILW tank car in this photo to photos of Walthers 10000 gallon HO models, and there is a strong resemblance, especially comparing tank diameter and dome sizes.

Todd Sullivan

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts
nyc3001 .
 

Dave, a PTC tank car would be great. I think some of the necessary HO vertical-course tanks have already been produced (SC&F) since iirc PTC cars used STC tanks mounted onto their own frames.

So some longitudinal-course tanks (8k and 10k), a 10k vertical-course tank, and PTC frames would cover most of the bases afaik. 

Very common GATX cars into the 1950s based on photos. Huge domes and dome platforms attached to the domes instead of the tanks.

-Phil
Claus Schlund &#92;(HGM&#92;)
 

Hi Tim and List Members,


Thanks Tim for the insight, I will give this topic some further research...


Claus Schlund



On 06-Feb-23 11:28, Tim O'Connor wrote:


Claus I'd think that model is a good N scale stand-in for a Type 21, but definitely not the Type 17.

On 2/5/2023 6:13 PM, Claus Schlund wrote:

It seems that in N scale one could use this Arnold tank car as a starting point for TTIX 1012...

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/co0AAOSwnsdiF6vw/s-l1600.jpg

Claus Schlund



On 05-Feb-23 13:55, Tim O'Connor wrote:

TTIX 1012
This car has been identified (for me) as a Type 17, at least originally. This is circa 1958 so
it could have been altered by this date (sometimes tanks were mounted onto newer frames)

On 2/5/2023 2:20 AM, hockenheim68 via groups.io wrote:
Are Type 17 drawings in one of the MCB?
Andrew Hutchinson


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

Todd Sullivan
 

Tim,

I'm puzzled by your remark about 'its smaller -- 8000 gallons'.

I compared the photo of the MILW tank car in this photo to photos of Walthers 10000 gallon HO models, and there is a strong resemblance, especially comparing tank diameter and dome sizes.

Todd Sullivan
Tim O'Connor
 


Claus I'd think that model is a good N scale stand-in for a Type 21, but definitely not the Type 17.

On 2/5/2023 6:13 PM, Claus Schlund wrote:

It seems that in N scale one could use this Arnold tank car as a starting point for TTIX 1012...

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/co0AAOSwnsdiF6vw/s-l1600.jpg

Claus Schlund



On 05-Feb-23 13:55, Tim O'Connor wrote:

TTIX 1012
This car has been identified (for me) as a Type 17, at least originally. This is circa 1958 so
it could have been altered by this date (sometimes tanks were mounted onto newer frames)

On 2/5/2023 2:20 AM, hockenheim68 via groups.io wrote:
Are Type 17 drawings in one of the MCB?
Andrew Hutchinson


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts
Claus Schlund &#92;(HGM&#92;)
 

Hi Tim and List Members,


It seems that in N scale one could use this Arnold tank car as a starting point for TTIX 1012...


https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/co0AAOSwnsdiF6vw/s-l1600.jpg


Claus Schlund



On 05-Feb-23 13:55, Tim O'Connor wrote:


TTIX 1012

This car has been identified (for me) as a Type 17, at least originally. This is circa 1958 so
it could have been altered by this date (sometimes tanks were mounted onto newer frames)


On 2/5/2023 2:20 AM, hockenheim68 via groups.io wrote:
Are Type 17 drawings in one of the MCB?

Andrew Hutchinson

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

hockenheim68
 

TYVM,

Helpful pic.

I think I've found the basic dimensional info I was after.

Andrew Hutchinson
Tim O'Connor
 


TTIX 1012

This car has been identified (for me) as a Type 17, at least originally. This is circa 1958 so
it could have been altered by this date (sometimes tanks were mounted onto newer frames)


On 2/5/2023 2:20 AM, hockenheim68 via groups.io wrote:

Are Type 17 drawings in one of the MCB?

Andrew Hutchinson

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

ttix_1012 1-dome tank 10k ARAIII ACF-1925 Type-17 TaylorYard LosAngelesCA circa 1958.Gerstley.jpg

Tim O'Connor
 

Ryan

I can't quite tell on that one, but I'm pretty sure this one is an ACF Type 21 as produced by Proto 2000
(now Walthers). It's smaller  ~8,000 gallons.


On 2/4/2023 6:09 PM, Ryan Reed wrote:

Does anyone have a suggestion what might be the best model to build this tankcar? It's 10,000 gallon and 31' 9" long. 

I'm admittedly not the best tankcar guy...

Ryan Reed

Attachments:



--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

milw_79096 1-dome tank 8k 8110-Gal ICC103 ACF Type-21 1970.jpg

hockenheim68
 

Are Type 17 drawings in one of the MCB?

Andrew Hutchinson
nyc3001 .
 

Tom, it wouldn't. The tank, dome, and underframe are different.

Looking forward to the PSC resin tank. I have one ASEX car with a very warped tank that will probably need to be replaced.

-Phil
Tom Madden
 

I'm probably missing something, but would Tangent's 1917 GATC radial rivet tank car serve as a starting point? They have the 10K available as an undec kit.

Tom Madden
Ryan Reed
 

Thanks for the answer on this one!! I'll tuck it away in case an ACF Type 17 does see the light of day at some point in the future. 

-Ryan
Dave Parker
 

On Sat, Feb 4, 2023 at 04:03 PM, nyc3001 . wrote:
iirc Ted's EFC article stated that a 10k Type 11 was planned for the future as well as a reworked version of the 8k Type 11. The Funaro kit has some shortcomings (like a dome which is too small), which caused Ted to scratchbuild a new tank for the 8K Type 11 anyway.
I don't disagree, but I think if Steve was going to ever improve upon his "Type 2" (sic) model, he would have done so by now.  If your are willing to scratch an entire tank (like Ted did), you could model quite a few things.  I wouldn't mind a Type 17 on my layout, but it's not enough of a priority to make that kind of time investment.  Now, a Penn Tank Car Co model OTOH....
 
--
Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA
David
 

ACF Type 17.  Unfortunately,  there is no easy way to do this one. The old Proto 2000 ACF Type 21 would be the best starting point, but it needs a different end sill, different dome hatch, external safety valve elbow, and double-row radial rivet joints.

David Thompson

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