Accurail 36 foot boxcars
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Ray Breyer
Hi Jon, Accurail posted it earlier in the week: Ray Breyer Elgin, IL From: "Jon Miller atsfus@... [STMFC]" To: STMFC@... Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 11:20 AM Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Accurail 36 foot boxcars On 2/18/2017 8:21 AM, John Barry
northbaylines@... [STMFC] wrote:
The NKP artwork shows a 1945 re weigh date. I can easily change that last digit or ignore, but the remainder of the paint looks spot on to this ATSF modeler. I'm missing something (or old brain) but where is the
artwork, available for viewing, for the NKP car?
Support with early paint is great and one would hope for
most/all+ of the production costs to be covered with these runs.
I can wait [grin], but not to long as I'm 75!
-- Jon Miller For me time stopped in 1941 Digitrax Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI User NMRA Life member #2623 Member SFRH&MS |
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Eric Hansmann
John,
Here’s the NKP art. http://accurail.com/accurail/ART/1300/1302.jpg
For other Accurail models, click on the model you want to know more about and there are links at the product pages that will show art or the decorated model.
Not all listed road names will have a link as the art may not yet be ready.
Eric Hansmann El Paso, TX
From: STMFC@...
[mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 10:21 AM To: STMFC@... Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Accurail 36 foot boxcars
On 2/18/2017 8:21 AM, John Barry northbaylines@... [STMFC] wrote:
I'm missing something (or old brain) but where is the artwork, available for viewing, for the NKP car? Support with early paint is great and one would hope for most/all+ of the production costs to be covered with these runs. I can wait [grin], but not to long as I'm 75! -- Jon MillerFor me time stopped in 1941Digitrax Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI UserNMRA Life member #2623Member SFRH&MS
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Jon Miller <atsfus@...>
On 2/18/2017 9:37 AM, Ray Breyer
rtbsvrr69@... [STMFC] wrote:
Accurail posted it earlier in the week: Thanks Ray, I looked it up earlier and that wasn't there. I
afraid it was a computer cash memory problem. -- Jon Miller For me time stopped in 1941 Digitrax Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI User NMRA Life member #2623 Member SFRH&MS |
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I am tremendously cheered by the fact that Accurail will be continuing to offer their renumbering decals. It will be so much easier to create a fleet. Can hardly wait to see the L&N artwork. Thank you Dennis. Chuck Peck in FL On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 12:42 PM, 'Eric Hansmann' eric@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
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Eric Hansmann
John Barry brings up some interesting 36-foot box car quantities for 1945. While the individual US road quantities don’t seem large, a rough summation brings the total near 50,000 cars. Add in the Canadian cars, many of which were single-sheathed Fowler/Dominion design cars, and you have over 100,000 box cars of less than 40-foot length.
Something to consider as you develop a box car fleet for those post-WW2 years before a decline of shorter US box cars begins in 1950 as the K brake ban loomed on the calendar.
Eric Hansmann El Paso, TX
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 9:22 AM To: STMFC@yahoogroups com Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Accurail 36 foot boxcars
John Barry wrote:
Here's hoping the L&N comes with the modern lettering sooner rather than later. In the Jan 45 ORER they had the 4th largest number (7636) of less than 40' cars behind CP (33,279), CN (25,249), and Southern (13075). NYC was fifth (4722) followed by NH (3478), ATSF (2861), NC&Stl (2864), and Erie (2275). CB&Q, D&H, C&O,GTW, DL&W, MP, N de M, BAR, SOO and CV all had between one and two thousand cars, listed in decreasing order. SLSF came close with 949 and rounded out the top 20. One other interesting tidbit, the mighty Sumpter & Choctaw's box car fleet was equal to the SP with three each short box cars. (Don't look at longer car lengths though;-) I've not reviewed all of Ray's great work, but those close enough cars that match the above roads are high on my wish list. I am going to have to get out the Bx-O/5/14 kits from Westerfield to see if the Accurail is suitable for a kitbash. Adding the fishbelly side sill would be a faster way to get a few more shortys on the road. Have to check the other dimensions and detailing though. John Barry
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I'm really not sure why Andy has tried to mask Byron Rose's identity. Byron is not shy about sharing his opinions, and he is about as "extreme" a modeler as I've ever met - even more so than Bill Welch, another fantastic modeler. Randy Anderson (who never joined our illustrious little group) was another such modeler. If you know Byron, you know that he is equally merciless with Sunshine and other resin kits, many of which also have serious errors and/or omissions. Byron is NOT a cheerleader - He's more like that terrible professor who refused to grade on a curve and flunked half the class, but whose knowledge and understanding were second to none. Those who chose to learn from him, can. And by the way, while I have no personal interest in the Accurail 36 foot cars, I think they will be greatly appreciated by steam era modelers and I think we'll see lots of awesome modeling starting with these kits. So far I think Dennis has batted 0.999 on all of his "from scratch" freight car projects. Thank goodness for Accurail! Tim O'Connor After reading through the responses to Andy's original post, it seems the situation |
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Tony
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The "trash talk" was not posted to this list - it was a private communication that was forwarded to the list. And, I've seen plenty of models trashed here over the years, many times unfairly and/or inaccurately. Tim O'Connor Well said, Earl. Trashing models is not really what this list strives for, especially when the trash talk is inaccurate. |
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Bill Keene <wakeene@...>
I too, am looking forward to the L&N artwork and also that for the MKT cars.
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Cheers, Bill Keene Irvine, CA
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Dave Nelson
Ahh, nice to hear Byron is still around and able to kick dirt (a.k.a. facts) into faces when said dirt is present. Not always nice but always useful.
If I may I’d like to add that some of the fuss in this thread appears to me to be because so many people are modelers first, last, and everything in between. It might be a shock to some but small plastic models are not the only thing that matters ‘round here… posts about actual freight cars are in scope as well and are always more interesting, at least to me.
So is it correct the NYC car is the root of this conversation?
Dave Nelson
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
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John Barry
Eric, I had to run to the post office and neglected to add that the short box was 57917, 9.4% of the US XM count. The 119,727 in North America was 16.3% of the continental XMs. When you look at the XAs, the US numbers were 1643 short, 75517 40ft, 35951 50ft and one 70 ft car for 1.5%, 66.8%, 31.8% and 0%. The addition of Canada and Mexico did not appreciably change either the quantity or percentage of the various length auto cars. Put another way, in Jan 1945 when I model, the 36 ft box was almost twice as common as the 50' auto car and more than 4 times as common as a 50' box. In other words, I need to balance the P2K 50'ers on my roster with a bunch of shortys. Well, maybe I can get away with an imbalance account the jeep production at Richmond and the truck production in the South Bay that needed the auto cars, just as I need a higher than standard proportion of flats. I do look forward to future releases, but at the same time am willing to wait as you 20's modeler's should pay for all the tooling filling your voids. John Barry On February 18, 2017, at 1:14 PM, "'Eric Hansmann' eric@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...> wrote:
John Barry brings up some interesting 36-foot box car quantities for 1945. While the individual US road quantities don’t seem large, a rough summation brings the total near 50,000 cars. Add in the Canadian cars, many of which were single-sheathed Fowler/Dominion design cars, and you have over 100,000 box cars of less than 40-foot length.
Something to consider as you develop a box car fleet for those post-WW2 years before a decline of shorter US box cars begins in 1950 as the K brake ban loomed on the calendar.
Eric Hansmann El Paso, TX
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
John Barry wrote:
Here's hoping the L&N comes with the modern lettering sooner rather than later. In the Jan 45 ORER they had the 4th largest number (7636) of less than 40' cars behind CP (33,279), CN (25,249), and Southern (13075). NYC was fifth (4722) followed by NH (3478), ATSF (2861), NC&Stl (2864), and Erie (2275). CB&Q, D&H, C&O,GTW, DL&W, MP, N de M, BAR, SOO and CV all had between one and two thousand cars, listed in decreasing order. SLSF came close with 949 and rounded out the top 20. One other interesting tidbit, the mighty Sumpter & Choctaw's box car fleet was equal to the SP with three each short box cars. (Don't look at longer car lengths though;-) I've not reviewed all of Ray's great work, but those close enough cars that match the above roads are high on my wish list. I am going to have to get out the Bx-O/5/14 kits from Westerfield to see if the Accurail is suitable for a kitbash. Adding the fishbelly side sill would be a faster way to get a few more shortys on the road. Have to check the other dimensions and detailing though. John Barry
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I’m delighted to see these cars being delivered at last. I’m wondering whether some of the lucky folks who already have one could take out the calipers and start to give us some core dimensions of the model. I’m thinking about cutting off ends and replacing to match other prototypes, and so would love to know the precise car width over the side sheathing, inner width within the car body, height of the siding and fascia, thickness of the roof, roof pitch, as well as photos of the underside of the model and how the pieces go together.
Rob Kirkham |
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Armand Premo
My,my ,my,Don't forget the Rutland. Armand Premo On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 4:25 PM, Robert kirkham rdkirkham@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
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Tony Thompson
Tim O'Connor wrote:
True, and I can't paint a finger at the writer, But if I hd been the one forwarding, I would have deleted the "avoid" sentence. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@... Publishers of books on railroad history |
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Tony Thompson
Tim O'Connor wrote:
I knew Byron well when I lived in Pittsburgh, and would fully agree with Tim's description. But Byron's shortcoming is that to him, ALL errors are equally serious. To him, there are no minor errors. All errors are equally serious and equally fatal. You may make your own decision as to whether that makes him a critic you want to listen to. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@... Publishers of books on railroad history |
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destorzek@...
Well, it's been nice reading the heated discussion about the new Accurail car kit. I have to apologize for my rather terse reply Friday... I was feeling like crap, checked the e-mail one last time before leaving work, and Andy's message popped up. Now that I'm feeling better, let's see if I can cover all replies in one message.
PROTOTYPE I thought it was no secret that this is a New York Central System car - both versions. The NYC adopted this fishbelly underframe before they adopted steel ends, so the cars were built new both ways. The 1400 and 1800 series kits are going to be the same bodies with a straight 15" channel underframe that will allow them to become "stand-ins" for the great number of prototypes that did not have fishbelly center sills. SOURCE DATA The NYC had these cars built for itself and subsidiaries by at least five builders, over a span of eleven or so years. Drawings of lots built by both Pullman Co. and Haskell & Barker exist in the Pullman Library of the Illinois Railway Museum... extensive coverage, but incomplete. There are also no builders photos in the IRM collection. The best builders photos are of AC&F cars. There are identifiable minor differences between each lot I have drawings for, and also between those drawings and the AC&F cars in the photos. DEVIATION FROM ORIGINAL The Pullman and H&B drawings, and all the builders photos, show the cars were built with outside metal roofs having prominent clasps holding the ends of the seam caps and additional clasps holding the middle of the sheets at the eaves. These are the original form of a non-flexible outside metal roof, and they did not last long at all. There are numerous photos of the cars still with their pre-1926 data lettering that have had their roofs replaced. In the materials from the Pullman Library were some drawings of rebuildings of NYC truss rod cars with new underframes dated 1922, and those showed the replacement roofs. Manufacturer is not noted, but they look like Murphy XLA, and that is what is on the kits. PUBLISHING PROTOTYPE DATA I'm sorry, the license agreement with Bombardier Corp, the actual owner of the drawings in the IRM collection prohibits reproduction.Likewise, while the AC&F photos are on loan to us, I know that the St. Louis Mercantile Library, the holder of the ACF builders photo collection, has essentially the same terms, requiring payment of royalties for publication. Accurail is not in the publishing business. We've done our homework to develop the kits, they are what they are, anyone who wants prototype photos will need to do their own research. Ray Breyer has been generous in sharing what he has, and has mentioned his intention to publish articles about the cars in the future.The material IS out there. THAT END SILL These cars have a channel steel end sill with the flanges turned inward, rather than outward as is common on many other cars. The underframe is exactly the same length on cars with either wood or steel ends, with the end material outside the ends. Since the wood car siding is 9/16" thicker than the steel end sheet, that means the wood car is actually 1-1/8" longer over the sheathing. This was going to cause a problem with the fascia under a common roof. While the H&B drawings show the car siding stopping at the top of the end sill channel, thus overhanging the face of the channel by 13/16", the AC&F photos show much less overhang... of course, without access to the AC&F drawings, it's impossible to tell exactly what they did differently. To solve my fascia problem. I decreased the overhang of the siding by .005", to about a scale 3/8". This seems consistent with what shows in the AC&F photos. Also, thanks Tony for pointing out those six square things on the corners are bolt heads, not rivets. Dennis Storzek |
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Dennis - When I copied the AC&F builders photos I was given permission to reproduce them in any way I wanted. If you have the Westerfield AC&F photos disk you can also do so. - Al Westerfield On Sunday, February 19, 2017 1:58 PM, "destorzek@... [STMFC]" wrote: Well, it's been nice reading the heated discussion about the new Accurail car kit. I have to apologize for my rather terse reply Friday... I was feeling like crap, checked the e-mail one last time before leaving work, and Andy's message popped up. Now that I'm feeling better, let's see if I can cover all replies in one message. PROTOTYPE I thought it was no secret that this is a New York Central System car - both versions. The NYC adopted this fishbelly underframe before they adopted steel ends, so the cars were built new both ways. The 1400 and 1800 series kits are going to be the same bodies with a straight 15" channel underframe that will allow them to become "stand-ins" for the great number of prototypes that did not have fishbelly center sills. SOURCE DATA The NYC had these cars built for itself and subsidiaries by at least five builders, over a span of eleven or so years. Drawings of lots built by both Pullman Co. and Haskell & Barker exist in the Pullman Library of the Illinois Railway Museum... extensive coverage, but incomplete. There are also no builders photos in the IRM collection. The best builders photos are of AC&F cars. There are identifiable minor differences between each lot I have drawings for, and also between those drawings and the AC&F cars in the photos. DEVIATION FROM ORIGINAL The Pullman and H&B drawings, and all the builders photos, show the cars were built with outside metal roofs having prominent clasps holding the ends of the seam caps and additional clasps holding the middle of the sheets at the eaves. These are the original form of a non-flexible outside metal roof, and they did not last long at all. There are numerous photos of the cars still with their pre-1926 data lettering that have had their roofs replaced. In the materials from the Pullman Library were some drawings of rebuildings of NYC truss rod cars with new underframes dated 1922, and those showed the replacement roofs. Manufacturer is not noted, but they look like Murphy XLA, and that is what is on the kits. PUBLISHING PROTOTYPE DATA I'm sorry, the license agreement with Bombardier Corp, the actual owner of the drawings in the IRM collection prohibits reproduction.Likewise, while the AC&F photos are on loan to us, I know that the St. Louis Mercantile Library, the holder of the ACF builders photo collection, has essentially the same terms, requiring payment of royalties for publication. Accurail is not in the publishing business. We've done our homework to develop the kits, they are what they are, anyone who wants prototype photos will need to do their own research. Ray Breyer has been generous in sharing what he has, and has mentioned his intention to publish articles about the cars in the future.The material IS out there. THAT END SILL These cars have a channel steel end sill with the flanges turned inward, rather than outward as is common on many other cars. The underframe is exactly the same length on cars with either wood or steel ends, with the end material outside the ends. Since the wood car siding is 9/16" thicker than the steel end sheet, that means the wood car is actually 1-1/8" longer over the sheathing. This was going to cause a problem with the fascia under a common roof. While the H&B drawings show the car siding stopping at the top of the end sill channel, thus overhanging the face of the channel by 13/16", the AC&F photos show much less overhang... of course, without access to the AC&F drawings, it's impossible to tell exactly what they did differently. To solve my fascia problem. I decreased the overhang of the siding by .005", to about a scale 3/8". This seems consistent with what shows in the AC&F photos. Also, thanks Tony for pointing out those six square things on the corners are bolt heads, not rivets. Dennis Storzek |
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Any ACF photos published in the USA (say, in a Car Builder Cyclopedia) before 1923 are expired copyrights - they are in the PUBLIC DOMAIN - unless they were republished later with notice (1923 to 1963) with a RENEWED copyright, or they were republished with notice (1964 to 1977). Somehow I doubt ACF republished the images or renewed the copyrights. Physical possession of negatives or drawings does not constitute renewed copyright. So while a museum or library can control access to physical materials, it does not change the copyright status of the materials! Of course you might really piss them off and they'll never let you in the door again, so there's that. EVERYTHING published prior to 1897 (120 years ago) is expired. The 120 year limit applies to all works, even modern works. http://copyright.cornell.edu/resources/publicdomain.cfm Tim O'Connor Dennis - When I copied the AC&F builders photos I was given permission to reproduce them in any way I wanted. If you have the Westerfield AC&F photos disk you can also do so. - Al Westerfield |
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destorzek@...
---In STMFC@..., <timboconnor@...> wrote : Physical possession of negatives or drawings does not constitute renewed copyright. So while a museum or library can control access to physical materials, it does not change the copyright status of the materials! Of course you might really piss them off and they'll never let you in the door again, so there's that. ==================== Tim you are correct. For material this old, it's a matter of contract law, not copyright. Many places do as the Mercantile Library does, and sign you to a licensing agreement before giving you the photo. If you violate the agreement, most likely they won't sue you, although they could... But they'll certainly never deal with you again. Dennis - When I copied the AC&F builders photos I was given permission to reproduce them in any way I wanted. If you have the Westerfield AC&F photos disk you can also do so. - Al Westerfield====================Al, I'll pass that on to Ray, who I think has plans to publish photos of these cars.Dennis Storzek |
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riverman_vt@...
---In STMFC@..., <westerfieldalfred@...> wrote : Dennis - When I copied the AC&F builders photos I was given permission to reproduce them in any way I wanted. If you have the Westerfield AC&F photos disk you can also do so. - Al Westerfield That's what I was advised by the ACF folks as well, Al, when I was there making copies and this was long before the Mercantile Library became involved. Cordially, Don Valentine |
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riverman_vt@...
Gee, Bill, just think of the broader number of car types there would be for you to model if you backed your time frame up from five to ten years. Let's see, there are all sorts of 36 ft. cars that were gone by 1955 not to mention early reefers and tank cars that you like. Just thinking out loud but consider the possibilities!
My best, Don Valentine |
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