ACF Type 27 tank car?


Tim O'Connor
 


This is interesting -- an ex-GULF tank car (WRNX? perhaps) now in B&O mofw service.
It sure looks like an 8,000 gallon ACF Type 27 -- but I think the dome is a bit larger in diameter
than the Intermountain model. Any idea why they would want a larger dome on an otherwise
ordinary ICC 103 tank car?

An Ebay grab from a seller Chris Barkan pointed out to me -- nice scans, but not steam era.


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Dave Parker
 

On Wed, Mar 22, 2023 at 04:33 PM, Tim O'Connor wrote:
Any idea why they would want a larger dome on an otherwise
ordinary ICC 103 tank car?
As we've discussed before, it seems to have come down to customer preference.  I don't know anything about the history of this particular car, but a quick perusal of the Gulf fleet in the 1936 tariff reveals a bunch of 265-, 295-, and even 355-gal (!) domes -- all on 8000-gal cars!  With a 2% minimum for Class III/103 cars, these are clearly oversized, some extremely so.

Why?  I can only assume that it was to minimize instances in which additional headspace would need to be provided beyond what the dome itself provided.  The two larger sizes probably guaranteed that for gasoline and naphtha, but specialty chemicals like acetone and ether could, depending on loading temperature, require very large expansion volumes.

--
Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA


Steve and Barb Hile
 

Looks a lot like this one, I think.

 

Steve Hile

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Tim O'Connor
Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2023 6:33 PM
To: RealSTMFC@groups.io; bbfcl@groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] ACF Type 27 tank car?

 


This is interesting -- an ex-GULF tank car (WRNX? perhaps) now in B&O mofw service.
It sure looks like an 8,000 gallon ACF Type 27 -- but I think the dome is a bit larger in diameter
than the Intermountain model. Any idea why they would want a larger dome on an otherwise
ordinary ICC 103 tank car?

An Ebay grab from a seller Chris Barkan pointed out to me -- nice scans, but not steam era.


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Tony Thompson
 

This is interesting -- an ex-GULF tank car (WRNX? perhaps) now in B&O mofw service.
It sure looks like an 8,000 gallon ACF Type 27 -- but I think the dome is a bit larger in diameter
than the Intermountain model. Any idea why they would want a larger dome on an otherwise
ordinary ICC 103 tank car?

Things like dome diameter were up to the buyer (subject of course to the 2% minimum). Buyers could and did specify something larger if they thought it would be needed. 

Tony Thompson


Jim Mischke
 


Some out-of-list-era information:

Tim's attached photo shows an ex-Gulf tank car in B&O company service as X-485, at Youngstown, Ohio, Center Street Junction during 1977-1981 from an unknown prolific photographer there.    There were at least two such B&O tank cars, (X-484, X-485) per photographic evidence, maybe several others.

Gulf Refining suffered a catastrophic fire at their Philadelphia refinery in 1975, which may have made some tank cars surplus.

Gulf had long been a diesel fuel supply vendor for B&O, in daily communication.




Slightly in-list-era information:

Since the beginning of dieselization, B&O maintained a fleet of largely secondhand tank cars for diesel fuel and lube oil service.  Many were stationary service with visible dispensing pumps, including tanks and tank car bodies mounted on flat cars, along with wheeled tank cars.   Additional such tank cars without pumps were often stationary, connected to the dispensing tank car for additional site capacity.  

Evidence strongly suggests some B&O company service tank cars circulated around the B&O system.   The company X-numbers would require home-road use only.    B&O ownership would benefit B&O by (1) eliminating all car hire charges, i.e. hauling fuel or lube oil around at B&O discretion with no accumulating freight charges to consider, (2) operational flexibility for loitering around railroad property while waitng for the next trip, or unexpedited unloading, and (3) covering for any outside tank car car supply interruptions.    

Origination and destination for B&O company tank car trips is still speculative.   Loading at an on-line refinery?   Which B&O terminal destinations would routinely benefit from deliveries in a B&O company tank car?   Small outlying points?   Good guesses yet unsupported by surviving literature.  The B&O company tank car fleet was not large enough to handle even a significant fraction of diesel fuel consumption, which mostly arrived in private tank cars.  

As I recall, the GATX tank car rental business concentrated on the petroleum trade, suggesting GATX tank cars for diesel fuel resupply in our modeling themes.  All roads, all diesel eras.


Attached is longtime fuel dispensing tank car residient to North Vernon, Ind., shown in 1965, a Tom Underwood photo., Barriger library collection.   Note disconnected rail on right.    Blue paint and yellow chains seem to be a local touch.   These cars, stationary or mobile, tended to be black.  How do I know?  Black and white photos of course!  :).    Also, B&O steel company service freight cars were black by printed instruction and practice.










Jack Mullen
 

On Wed, Mar 22, 2023 at 05:38 PM, Dave Parker wrote:
On Wed, Mar 22, 2023 at 04:33 PM, Tim O'Connor wrote:
Any idea why they would want a larger dome on an otherwise
ordinary ICC 103 tank car?
As we've discussed before, it seems to have come down to customer preference.  I don't know anything about the history of this particular car, but a quick perusal of the Gulf fleet in the 1936 tariff reveals a bunch of 265-, 295-, and even 355-gal (!) domes -- all on 8000-gal cars!  With a 2% minimum for Class III/103 cars, these are clearly oversized, some extremely so.

Why?  I can only assume that it was to minimize instances in which additional headspace would need to be provided beyond what the dome itself provided.  The two larger sizes probably guaranteed that for gasoline and naphtha, but specialty chemicals like acetone and ether could, depending on loading temperature, require very large expansion volumes.
Dave, I think your supposition is spot on.  To put expansion in perspective, the coefficients of expansion for gasoline, kerosene, and similar petroleum products are a bit less than 0.001 per degree centigrade, so a temperature rise of 20 C, or 36 F is enough to cause 2% expansion.  It seems that could occur frequently.
But a refinery that loads product under winter weather conditions could reasonably expect greater temperature  differentials seasonally. A larger dome would be a cheap way to avoid gauging outage, and to fully load tank cars year round.

Jack


George Eichelberger
 



On Mar 23, 2023, at 7:18 PM, george eichelberger <george.eichelberger@...> wrote:

Material in the SRHA archives explains some of the “whys” about Southern’s fuel oil tank cars that likely apply to other roads.

1. In the 1940s, diesel fuel was not available at many Southern terminals. EMC, Alco and F-M published fuel specifications (fuel flash points and such) for their diesels that varied between manufacturers. Local fuel availability for switch engines was an important factor. The first location to dieselize switch engines on the Southern was Jacksonville, FL because diesel fuel was available there for use on ships. 

(Through the 40s, terminals were not entirely dieselized because of diesel switcher costs. If a switch “job” did not operate on nearly a 24 hour (three trick) basis, diesels were not justified. Steam switchers, on the other hand, became more efficient because they could be watered and coaled when they were “off duty” rather than taking crew time away from switching.) I don’t know how much “science” went into the calculation but the Southern’s logic was an 0-6-0 steam switcher could be replaced by a 600hp diesel and 0-8-0s needed 1,000hp. The higher availability of the diesels eventually led to crew and loco assignment changes.

2. The benefits of dieselizing road power across an entire operating division made local fuel supply less important. As locations on the Southern may have had fuel oil suppliers (delivered by tank car prior to pipelines?), the volume needed by the railroad could have been larger than other local users and an uninterrupted supply would have been necessary. Company owed tank cars were used to purchase fuel oil and move it to where it was needed.

3. Coming at the end of the War and the development of pipelines, tank cars were available. While the Southern purchased usable “second hand” cars, wrecked cars that had to be paid were also useful for the Southern’s fuel oil needs. Cars from wrecks led to tanks and underframes from different cars being used. (Complicating a car’s documentation and making identification difficult for today’s “rivet counters”.)

4. Southern’s non-revenue numbering did not apply to the fuel oil cars. Rather than a letter prefix “B” for boarding car, “T” for tool, etc. The cars were assigned  numbers in the 9000-9099 series. The reason for the unusual rolling stock numbers may (!!) have been to maintain them as interchangeable rolling stock so they could travel off line to load company fuel. (No "common carrier" use has been documented.)

Ike



On Mar 23, 2023, at 4:22 PM, Jim Mischke <jmischke@...> wrote:


Some out-of-list-era information:

Tim's attached photo shows an ex-Gulf tank car in B&O company service as X-485, at Youngstown, Ohio, Center Street Junction during 1977-1981 from an unknown prolific photographer there.    There were at least two such B&O tank cars, (X-484, X-485) per photographic evidence, maybe several others.

Gulf Refining suffered a catastrophic fire at their Philadelphia refinery in 1975, which may have made some tank cars surplus.

Gulf had long been a diesel fuel supply vendor for B&O, in daily communication.




Slightly in-list-era information:

Since the beginning of dieselization, B&O maintained a fleet of largely secondhand tank cars for diesel fuel and lube oil service.  Many were stationary service with visible dispensing pumps, including tanks and tank car bodies mounted on flat cars, along with wheeled tank cars.   Additional such tank cars without pumps were often stationary, connected to the dispensing tank car for additional site capacity.  

Evidence strongly suggests some B&O company service tank cars circulated around the B&O system.   The company X-numbers would require home-road use only.    B&O ownership would benefit B&O by (1) eliminating all car hire charges, i.e. hauling fuel or lube oil around at B&O discretion with no accumulating freight charges to consider, (2) operational flexibility for loitering around railroad property while waitng for the next trip, or unexpedited unloading, and (3) covering for any outside tank car car supply interruptions.    

Origination and destination for B&O company tank car trips is still speculative.   Loading at an on-line refinery?   Which B&O terminal destinations would routinely benefit from deliveries in a B&O company tank car?   Small outlying points?   Good guesses yet unsupported by surviving literature.  The B&O company tank car fleet was not large enough to handle even a significant fraction of diesel fuel consumption, which mostly arrived in private tank cars.  

As I recall, the GATX tank car rental business concentrated on the petroleum trade, suggesting GATX tank cars for diesel fuel resupply in our modeling themes.  All roads, all diesel eras.


Attached is longtime fuel dispensing tank car residient to North Vernon, Ind., shown in 1965, a Tom Underwood photo., Barriger library collection.   Note disconnected rail on right.    Blue paint and yellow chains seem to be a local touch.   These cars, stationary or mobile, tended to be black.  How do I know?  Black and white photos of course!  :).    Also, B&O steel company service freight cars were black by printed instruction and practice.









Attachments:




George Eichelberger
 


Sorry if this is a dupe. I think using a “different” email address from me was not posted?


On Mar 23, 2023, at 7:18 PM, george eichelberger <george.eichelberger@...> wrote:

Material in the SRHA archives explains some of the “whys” about Southern’s fuel oil tank cars that likely apply to other roads.

1. In the 1940s, diesel fuel was not available at many Southern terminals. EMC, Alco and F-M published fuel specifications (fuel flash points and such) for their diesels that varied between manufacturers. Local fuel availability for switch engines was an important factor. The first location to dieselize switch engines on the Southern was Jacksonville, FL because diesel fuel was available there for use on ships. 

(Through the 40s, terminals were not entirely dieselized because of diesel switcher costs. If a switch “job” did not operate on nearly a 24 hour (three trick) basis, diesels were not justified. Steam switchers, on the other hand, became more efficient because they could be watered and coaled when they were “off duty” rather than taking crew time away from switching.) I don’t know how much “science” went into the calculation but the Southern’s logic was an 0-6-0 steam switcher could be replaced by a 600hp diesel and 0-8-0s needed 1,000hp. The higher availability of the diesels eventually led to crew and loco assignment changes.

2. The benefits of dieselizing road power across an entire operating division made local fuel supply less important. As locations on the Southern may have had fuel oil suppliers (delivered by tank car prior to pipelines?), the volume needed by the railroad could have been larger than other local users and an uninterrupted supply would have been necessary. Company owed tank cars were used to purchase fuel oil and move it to where it was needed.

3. Coming at the end of the War and the development of pipelines, tank cars were available. While the Southern purchased usable “second hand” cars, wrecked cars that had to be paid were also useful for the Southern’s fuel oil needs. Cars from wrecks led to tanks and underframes from different cars being used. (Complicating a car’s documentation and making identification difficult for today’s “rivet counters”.)

4. Southern’s non-revenue numbering did not apply to the fuel oil cars. Rather than a letter prefix “B” for boarding car, “T” for tool, etc. The cars were assigned  numbers in the 9000-9099 series. The reason for the unusual rolling stock numbers may (!!) have been to maintain them as interchangeable rolling stock so they could travel off line to load company fuel. (No "common carrier" use has been documented.)

Ike



On Mar 23, 2023, at 4:22 PM, Jim Mischke <jmischke@...> wrote:


Some out-of-list-era information:

Tim's attached photo shows an ex-Gulf tank car in B&O company service as X-485, at Youngstown, Ohio, Center Street Junction during 1977-1981 from an unknown prolific photographer there.    There were at least two such B&O tank cars, (X-484, X-485) per photographic evidence, maybe several others.

Gulf Refining suffered a catastrophic fire at their Philadelphia refinery in 1975, which may have made some tank cars surplus.

Gulf had long been a diesel fuel supply vendor for B&O, in daily communication.




Slightly in-list-era information:

Since the beginning of dieselization, B&O maintained a fleet of largely secondhand tank cars for diesel fuel and lube oil service.  Many were stationary service with visible dispensing pumps, including tanks and tank car bodies mounted on flat cars, along with wheeled tank cars.   Additional such tank cars without pumps were often stationary, connected to the dispensing tank car for additional site capacity.  

Evidence strongly suggests some B&O company service tank cars circulated around the B&O system.   The company X-numbers would require home-road use only.    B&O ownership would benefit B&O by (1) eliminating all car hire charges, i.e. hauling fuel or lube oil around at B&O discretion with no accumulating freight charges to consider, (2) operational flexibility for loitering around railroad property while waitng for the next trip, or unexpedited unloading, and (3) covering for any outside tank car car supply interruptions.    

Origination and destination for B&O company tank car trips is still speculative.   Loading at an on-line refinery?   Which B&O terminal destinations would routinely benefit from deliveries in a B&O company tank car?   Small outlying points?   Good guesses yet unsupported by surviving literature.  The B&O company tank car fleet was not large enough to handle even a significant fraction of diesel fuel consumption, which mostly arrived in private tank cars.  

As I recall, the GATX tank car rental business concentrated on the petroleum trade, suggesting GATX tank cars for diesel fuel resupply in our modeling themes.  All roads, all diesel eras.


Attached is longtime fuel dispensing tank car residient to North Vernon, Ind., shown in 1965, a Tom Underwood photo., Barriger library collection.   Note disconnected rail on right.    Blue paint and yellow chains seem to be a local touch.   These cars, stationary or mobile, tended to be black.  How do I know?  Black and white photos of course!  :).    Also, B&O steel company service freight cars were black by printed instruction and practice.









Attachments:





george eichelberger
 



On Mar 23, 2023, at 7:18 PM, george eichelberger <george.eichelberger@...> wrote:

Material in the SRHA archives explains some of the “whys” about Southern’s fuel oil tank cars that likely apply to other roads.

1. In the 1940s, diesel fuel was not available at many Southern terminals. EMC, Alco and F-M published fuel specifications (fuel flash points and such) for their diesels that varied between manufacturers. Local fuel availability for switch engines was an important factor. The first location to dieselize switch engines on the Southern was Jacksonville, FL because diesel fuel was available there for use on ships. 

(Through the 40s, terminals were not entirely dieselized because of diesel switcher costs. If a switch “job” did not operate on nearly a 24 hour (three trick) basis, diesels were not justified. Steam switchers, on the other hand, became more efficient because they could be watered and coaled when they were “off duty” rather than taking crew time away from switching.) I don’t know how much “science” went into the calculation but the Southern’s logic was an 0-6-0 steam switcher could be replaced by a 600hp diesel and 0-8-0s needed 1,000hp. The higher availability of the diesels eventually led to crew and loco assignment changes.

2. The benefits of dieselizing road power across an entire operating division made local fuel supply less important. As locations on the Southern may have had fuel oil suppliers (delivered by tank car prior to pipelines?), the volume needed by the railroad could have been larger than other local users and an uninterrupted supply would have been necessary. Company owed tank cars were used to purchase fuel oil and move it to where it was needed.

3. Coming at the end of the War and the development of pipelines, tank cars were available. While the Southern purchased usable “second hand” cars, wrecked cars that had to be paid were also useful for the Southern’s fuel oil needs. Cars from wrecks led to tanks and underframes from different cars being used. (Complicating a car’s documentation and making identification difficult for today’s “rivet counters”.)

4. Southern’s non-revenue numbering did not apply to the fuel oil cars. Rather than a letter prefix “B” for boarding car, “T” for tool, etc. The cars were assigned  numbers in the 9000-9099 series. The reason for the unusual rolling stock numbers may (!!) have been to maintain them as interchangeable rolling stock so they could travel off line to load company fuel. (No "common carrier" use has been documented.)

Ike



On Mar 23, 2023, at 4:22 PM, Jim Mischke <jmischke@...> wrote:


Some out-of-list-era information:

Tim's attached photo shows an ex-Gulf tank car in B&O company service as X-485, at Youngstown, Ohio, Center Street Junction during 1977-1981 from an unknown prolific photographer there.    There were at least two such B&O tank cars, (X-484, X-485) per photographic evidence, maybe several others.

Gulf Refining suffered a catastrophic fire at their Philadelphia refinery in 1975, which may have made some tank cars surplus.

Gulf had long been a diesel fuel supply vendor for B&O, in daily communication.




Slightly in-list-era information:

Since the beginning of dieselization, B&O maintained a fleet of largely secondhand tank cars for diesel fuel and lube oil service.  Many were stationary service with visible dispensing pumps, including tanks and tank car bodies mounted on flat cars, along with wheeled tank cars.   Additional such tank cars without pumps were often stationary, connected to the dispensing tank car for additional site capacity.  

Evidence strongly suggests some B&O company service tank cars circulated around the B&O system.   The company X-numbers would require home-road use only.    B&O ownership would benefit B&O by (1) eliminating all car hire charges, i.e. hauling fuel or lube oil around at B&O discretion with no accumulating freight charges to consider, (2) operational flexibility for loitering around railroad property while waitng for the next trip, or unexpedited unloading, and (3) covering for any outside tank car car supply interruptions.    

Origination and destination for B&O company tank car trips is still speculative.   Loading at an on-line refinery?   Which B&O terminal destinations would routinely benefit from deliveries in a B&O company tank car?   Small outlying points?   Good guesses yet unsupported by surviving literature.  The B&O company tank car fleet was not large enough to handle even a significant fraction of diesel fuel consumption, which mostly arrived in private tank cars.  

As I recall, the GATX tank car rental business concentrated on the petroleum trade, suggesting GATX tank cars for diesel fuel resupply in our modeling themes.  All roads, all diesel eras.


Attached is longtime fuel dispensing tank car residient to North Vernon, Ind., shown in 1965, a Tom Underwood photo., Barriger library collection.   Note disconnected rail on right.    Blue paint and yellow chains seem to be a local touch.   These cars, stationary or mobile, tended to be black.  How do I know?  Black and white photos of course!  :).    Also, B&O steel company service freight cars were black by printed instruction and practice.









Attachments: