Topics

Apparently, Boston & Maine boxcars made it to Florida


Todd Sullivan
 

Doug,

I rather doubt that fresh lobsters would make it live to the West Coast by rail, based on years of eating them on Cape Ann north of Boston where my grandparents had a summer house, and on average transit times for freight coast to coast.  Specialty paper is more likely.  Champion Paper Mills in Lowell or Lawrence (I forget which) made high grade coated paper for the National Geographic magazine in the 1950s (I toured their mill as a high schooler), so I could conceive of such a load being shipped from MA to the PacNW to a specialty printer.  I'm sure Seattle or Portland had at least one of those. 

I'll try to think of other commodities that might work.  There had to be specialty manufactured items made in cities around Boston, including Lawrence, Lowell,  Worcester, Framingham, Fitchburg and the like that had national distribution.

Todd Sullivan


Todd Sullivan
 

Well, now, that's a darned sneaky solution to Doug's problem!

Todd Sullivan


Doug Paasch
 

Thanks all for your info/ideas!


On Jul 8, 2020 7:29 PM, "Todd Sullivan via groups.io" <sullivant41=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Well, now, that's a darned sneaky solution to Doug's problem!

Todd Sullivan


Richard Townsend
 

It is possible that specialty wood items were shipped from New England to the west coast. I’m think of turned wooden thread spools, maybe even toothpicks. Yes the PNW had much lumber, but maybe not the right species for various items. And yes there were and are plenty of paper mills here, but maybe not making the right kind of paper for specialty uses. And the idea of textiles is great. Think of those huge textile mills like in Lowell. 


On Jul 8, 2020, at 6:44 PM, Doug Paasch <drpaasch@...> wrote:



Thanks all for your info/ideas!


On Jul 8, 2020 7:29 PM, "Todd Sullivan via groups.io" <sullivant41=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Well, now, that's a darned sneaky solution to Doug's problem!

Todd Sullivan


Tim O'Connor
 


Don't forget clothespins!! Before dryers, everyone needed a lot of clothespins. :-)

The Maine Central actually rebuilt 50 ton open hoppers into covered hoppers for clothespins!




On 7/8/2020 10:03 PM, Richard Townsend via groups.io wrote:
It is possible that specialty wood items were shipped from New England to the west coast. I’m think of turned wooden thread spools, maybe even toothpicks. Yes the PNW had much lumber, but maybe not the right species for various items. And yes there were and are plenty of paper mills here, but maybe not making the right kind of paper for specialty uses. And the idea of textiles is great. Think of those huge textile mills like in Lowell. 


On Jul 8, 2020, at 6:44 PM, Doug Paasch <drpaasch@...> wrote:



Thanks all for your info/ideas!


On Jul 8, 2020 7:29 PM, "Todd Sullivan via groups.io" <sullivant41=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Well, now, that's a darned sneaky solution to Doug's problem!

Todd Sullivan


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Tim O'Connor
 


Tony, BAR reefers continued to be used for California produce at least into the mid 1970's.


On 7/8/2020 9:25 PM, Tony Thompson wrote:
Doug Paasch wrote:

I have been looking at how to justify a BAR reefer and some BM cars to appear on my Seattle layout and any more ideas would be welcome.  All I can think of for a BAR reefer is fresh lobster?  I like the idea of the BM car carrying B&M beans to some grocery distributors, too.

    Remember that for awhile in the '50's BAR loaned its reefers to PFE from June 1 to October 1. So there you are! California vegetable or oranges, fresh to Seattle!

Tony Thompson


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Tim O'Connor
 


Lobsters and other fish went in EXPRESS REEFERS. And when lobsters were shipped ALIVE
they could indeed be sent all the way from Maine to California, even in steam days.



On 7/8/2020 9:28 PM, Todd Sullivan via groups.io wrote:
Doug,

I rather doubt that fresh lobsters would make it live to the West Coast by rail, based on years of eating them on Cape Ann north of Boston where my grandparents had a summer house, and on average transit times for freight coast to coast.  Specialty paper is more likely.  Champion Paper Mills in Lowell or Lawrence (I forget which) made high grade coated paper for the National Geographic magazine in the 1950s (I toured their mill as a high schooler), so I could conceive of such a load being shipped from MA to the PacNW to a specialty printer.  I'm sure Seattle or Portland had at least one of those. 

I'll try to think of other commodities that might work.  There had to be specialty manufactured items made in cities around Boston, including Lawrence, Lowell,  Worcester, Framingham, Fitchburg and the like that had national distribution.

Todd Sullivan

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Rick Naylor
 

Alot of the BAR loads were potato's, they shipped them all over the US


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...>
Sent: Wednesday, July 8, 2020 9:37 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Apparently, Boston & Maine boxcars made it to Florida
 

Tony, BAR reefers continued to be used for California produce at least into the mid 1970's.


On 7/8/2020 9:25 PM, Tony Thompson wrote:
Doug Paasch wrote:

I have been looking at how to justify a BAR reefer and some BM cars to appear on my Seattle layout and any more ideas would be welcome.  All I can think of for a BAR reefer is fresh lobster?  I like the idea of the BM car carrying B&M beans to some grocery distributors, too.

    Remember that for awhile in the '50's BAR loaned its reefers to PFE from June 1 to October 1. So there you are! California vegetable or oranges, fresh to Seattle!

Tony Thompson


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Doug Paasch
 

Good thought on the lumber.  The PNW is almost all softwood.  Hardwoods would need to come from the east, like maple (duh!), red & white oak, black walnut, etc.  Toothpicks, clothes pins, and textiles (especially woolens) are possibilities.  And manufactured goods, too.

 

Thanks for more ideas.  This is great!

 

  Doug Paasch

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Richard Townsend via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, July 8, 2020 8:04 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Apparently, Boston & Maine boxcars made it to Florida

 

It is possible that specialty wood items were shipped from New England to the west coast. I’m think of turned wooden thread spools, maybe even toothpicks. Yes the PNW had much lumber, but maybe not the right species for various items. And yes there were and are plenty of paper mills here, but maybe not making the right kind of paper for specialty uses. And the idea of textiles is great. Think of those huge textile mills like in Lowell. 



On Jul 8, 2020, at 6:44 PM, Doug Paasch <drpaasch@...> wrote:



Thanks all for your info/ideas!

 

On Jul 8, 2020 7:29 PM, "Todd Sullivan via groups.io" <sullivant41=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Well, now, that's a darned sneaky solution to Doug's problem!

Todd Sullivan


BillM
 

FEC shipped potatoes from the 5th district south of Miami and also the Hastings area.

Bill Michael

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Andy Brusgard
Sent: July 8, 2020 7:05 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Apparently, Boston & Maine boxcars made it to Florida

 

Potatoes!!! 


akerboomk
 

RE: B&M cars.

There’s always the Jones and Lamson Machine Tool works from Springfield VT (Shipped on the Springfield Terminal)  Sending machine tools to Boeing (or some aviation supplier)?

 

Re: Potatoes

Were the same varieties of potatoes grown in Idaho & Maine?  I’ve no idea what kinds were grown in Maine.  My image of an Idaho potato is just the Russets, but that may be more out of ignorance (maybe I should look at the bags, next time I’m in the store ;-) than any actual knowledge of what varieties are/were grown in Idaho.

 

RE: National “pools” of cars

Boxcars and flat cars were truly national pools.  There’s  a bunch of instances in ORERs where the B&M was renumbering cars and had pleas to “send our cars home so they can get renumbered”.

Then there’s the saga of flat 33509:

            https://www.bmrrhs.org/s/BMRRM_33509_flatcar.pdf

 

[from the B&M RR Magazine July, 1951 (vol 19 No. 7)]

 

Ken


--
Ken Akerboom


Chuck Soule
 

Regarding toothpicks, I specifically remember there used to be a Diamond Toothpick factory just south of the intersection of Union and Center Street in Tacoma, right next to Nalley's.  So toothpicks and similar small wood items were made in the Northwest and would have a relatively low likelihood of being shipped from New England. 

I think as likely as not B&M cars would show up out here with some kind of manufactured goods.  Someone mentioned the Bremerton Naval Shipyard earlier, which could be a recipient of repair parts from Bath Iron Works or some similar Naval parts supplier in the B&M part of New England.

Chuck Soule
Gig Harbor - which does not have a rail connection :(


Tony Thompson
 

I think as likely as not B&M cars would show up out here with some kind of manufactured goods.  Someone mentioned the Bremerton Naval Shipyard earlier, which could be a recipient of repair parts from Bath Iron Works or some similar Naval parts supplier in the B&M part of New England.

   One more time, guys. Box cars were free runners. They could have arrived in Seattle after being loaded ANYWHERE. Get over the idea that they had to be loaded on their home road.

Tony Thompson




WILLIAM PARDIE
 

A while back I was delighted to find a photo of a State Of Main boxcar in San Francisco.  That justified my having one of these cars on my roster.

Bill Pardie



Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone


-------- Original message --------
From: Tony Thompson <tony@...>
Date: 7/8/20 6:26 PM (GMT-10:00)
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Apparently, Boston & Maine boxcars made it to Florida

I think as likely as not B&M cars would show up out here with some kind of manufactured goods.  Someone mentioned the Bremerton Naval Shipyard earlier, which could be a recipient of repair parts from Bath Iron Works or some similar Naval parts supplier in the B&M part of New England.

   One more time, guys. Box cars were free runners. They could have arrived in Seattle after being loaded ANYWHERE. Get over the idea that they had to be loaded on their home road.

Tony Thompson




Richard Townsend
 

But as free runners they COULD have been loaded on their home road. <G>

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR


-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Thompson <tony@...>
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Sent: Wed, Jul 8, 2020 9:26 pm
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Apparently, Boston & Maine boxcars made it to Florida

I think as likely as not B&M cars would show up out here with some kind of manufactured goods.  Someone mentioned the Bremerton Naval Shipyard earlier, which could be a recipient of repair parts from Bath Iron Works or some similar Naval parts supplier in the B&M part of New England.

   One more time, guys. Box cars were free runners. They could have arrived in Seattle after being loaded ANYWHERE. Get over the idea that they had to be loaded on their home road.

Tony Thompson




Dave Parker
 

On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 09:26 PM, Tony Thompson wrote:
One more time, guys. Box cars were free runners. They could have arrived in Seattle after being loaded ANYWHERE. Get over the idea that they had to be loaded on their home road.
One more time guys.  Prior to about 1942, there wasn't any such thing as a "free runner"
 
The photo that started this thread is of a B&M series 12100-12299 auto (not box) car built in 1910.  Although the photo quality is poor, it doesn't look like it dates to much more than a decade later.  In that context, I think the chances that it ended up in Florida as some sort of random routing event are zilch. 

I have not seen any Seattle photos, but the obvious examples of B&M cars in LA are in Speedwitch FOFC, vols 2 and 9.  Two cars total, both in 1936-37.  I would make the same case here:  it is very unlikely that they wandered down the coast having been loaded in Seattle.  That's much more of a 1945+ scenario.

Last, the important New England commodity that hasn't yet been mentioned is shoes, at least prior to WWII.  Hides came east, shoes went west.  IIRC, Woburn (MA) was the biggest center, which is why it's a SuperFund site today (chromium-6 problems).

--
Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA


Tim O'Connor
 

Dave, it does not require "free running".

It could have been loaded by ANY railroad in the AAR region (or regions) served by the BAR and
sent to the AAR region that included Florida or to any adjacent region. From there it could end up going
back -towards- a BAR region or to any region ADJACENT to a BAR region, or... not. It could be
reloaded there, and sent anywhere at all. As long as the per diem was paid, the BAR had no grounds to
complain.

People who think freight cars (esp box cars) moved like ping-pong balls back and forth are MISTAKEN.

Tim O'Connor


On 7/9/2020 2:01 AM, Dave Parker via groups.io wrote:
On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 09:26 PM, Tony Thompson wrote:
One more time, guys. Box cars were free runners. They could have arrived in Seattle after being loaded ANYWHERE. Get over the idea that they had to be loaded on their home road.
One more time guys.  Prior to about 1942, there wasn't any such thing as a "free runner"
 
The photo that started this thread is of a B&M series 12100-12299 auto (not box) car built in 1910.  Although the photo quality is poor, it doesn't look like it dates to much more than a decade later.  In that context, I think the chances that it ended up in Florida as some sort of random routing event are zilch. 

I have not seen any Seattle photos, but the obvious examples of B&M cars in LA are in Speedwitch FOFC, vols 2 and 9.  Two cars total, both in 1936-37.  I would make the same case here:  it is very unlikely that they wandered down the coast having been loaded in Seattle.  That's much more of a 1945+ scenario.

Last, the important New England commodity that hasn't yet been mentioned is shoes, at least prior to WWII.  Hides came east, shoes went west.  IIRC, Woburn (MA) was the biggest center, which is why it's a SuperFund site today (chromium-6 problems).

--
Dave Parker

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Tony Thompson
 

Dave Parker wrote:

One more time guys.  Prior to about 1942, there wasn't any such thing as a "free runner"

 Then why are the same Car Service Rules in the back of ORER issues prior to 1942?

Tony Thompson




Tony Thompson
 

Dave Parker wrote:

One more time guys.  Prior to about 1942, there wasn't any such thing as a "free runner"
 
  I would make the same case here:  it is very unlikely that they wandered down the coast having been loaded in Seattle.  That's much more of a 1945+ scenario.

   Not sure where this comes from. The Car Service Rules as we know them were adopted by AAR in 1934, and were described as codifying principles already largely in operation.

Tony Thompson




Tim O'Connor
 


Another product : wooden kitchen matches. EVERYONE needed them. One of the match makers had
an enormous factory near Duluth-Superior but there must have been others.

There's a lot of pine in New England too - but the really good stuff was removed in colonial days - for ship masts!
The second and third growth forests are mostly for paper and pulp.

Oh, another New England forest product to this day - hardwood FLOORING lumber. Lots of it. Oak. Maple.

And of course - wood furniture.



On 7/8/2020 11:13 PM, Doug Paasch wrote:

Good thought on the lumber.  The PNW is almost all softwood.  Hardwoods would need to come from the east, like maple (duh!), red & white oak, black walnut, etc.  Toothpicks, clothes pins, and textiles (especially woolens) are possibilities.  And manufactured goods, too.

 

Thanks for more ideas.  This is great!

 

  Doug Paasch



--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts