Topics

ATSF in California


Paul Doggett
 

Hi

Does anyone know if the ATSF hauled sugar beets in California in the early 1950s if so whereabouts.

Many thanks
Paul Doggett. England 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿


Bob Chaparro
 

Bruce Morden of Carpinteria, CA, commented:

"By 1950 many of the California Sugar Beet facilities had closed. 

Still open in the 1950's:

Alvarado (closed 1968)

Betteravia (1994)

Brawley (still open)

Clarksburg (closed 1993)

Dyer [Santa Ana]  (closed 1979)

Hamilton City (closed 1996)

Manteca (closed 1996)

Mendota (closed 2008)

Oxnard (closed 1958)

Spreckels (closed 1981)

Sugar Field [Woodland] (closed 2000)

Tracy (closed 2000)

All were served exclusively by the Southern Pacific except Clarksburg which was served by the Sacramento Northern/Western Pacific."

Over the years Bruce has been studying sugar beet operations in California. Here is a link to his Southern Pacific's Santa Barbara Subdivision blog:

http://spsbsub.blogspot.com/

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Paul Doggett
 

Bruce 

Thank you very much and please thank Bruce for me as well.

Paul 


On 24 Oct 2020, at 00:48, Bob Chaparro via groups.io <chiefbobbb@...> wrote:



Bruce Morden of Carpinteria, CA, commented:

"By 1950 many of the California Sugar Beet facilities had closed. 

Still open in the 1950's:

Alvarado (closed 1968)

Betteravia (1994)

Brawley (still open)

Clarksburg (closed 1993)

Dyer [Santa Ana]  (closed 1979)

Hamilton City (closed 1996)

Manteca (closed 1996)

Mendota (closed 2008)

Oxnard (closed 1958)

Spreckels (closed 1981)

Sugar Field [Woodland] (closed 2000)

Tracy (closed 2000)

All were served exclusively by the Southern Pacific except Clarksburg which was served by the Sacramento Northern/Western Pacific."

Over the years Bruce has been studying sugar beet operations in California. Here is a link to his Southern Pacific's Santa Barbara Subdivision blog:

http://spsbsub.blogspot.com/

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


radiodial868
 

Looks like SP had the monopoly on California sugarbeets, and the Santa Fe moved Colorado beets.
So Paul, I'm guessing the next question you ask is, "would an AT&SF gondola ever end up in a consist of Southern Pacific beet gondolas?"
-------------------
RJ Dial

Mendocino, CA


Paul Doggett
 

RJ 

I have never seen a photo of one mine will be carrying scrap I think or timber .

Paul Doggett


On 24 Oct 2020, at 17:48, radiodial868 <radiodial57@...> wrote:

Looks like SP had the monopoly on California sugarbeets, and the Santa Fe moved Colorado beets.
So Paul, I'm guessing the next question you ask is, "would an AT&SF gondola ever end up in a consist of Southern Pacific beet gondolas?"
-------------------
RJ Dial

Mendocino, CA


Richard Townsend
 

I don’t know about SP beet trains, but I have seen photos of UP and even Chicago & Alton hoppers in Colorado & Southern beet trains.


On Oct 24, 2020, at 10:11 AM, Paul Doggett via groups.io <paul.doggett2472@...> wrote:

RJ 

I have never seen a photo of one mine will be carrying scrap I think or timber .

Paul Doggett


On 24 Oct 2020, at 17:48, radiodial868 <radiodial57@...> wrote:

Looks like SP had the monopoly on California sugarbeets, and the Santa Fe moved Colorado beets.
So Paul, I'm guessing the next question you ask is, "would an AT&SF gondola ever end up in a consist of Southern Pacific beet gondolas?"
-------------------
RJ Dial

Mendocino, CA


Paul Doggett
 

I think they borrowed whatever they could, I have a UP with 2 bay hoppers in a beet train.
Paul Doggett 


On 24 Oct 2020, at 18:57, Richard Townsend via groups.io <richtownsend@...> wrote:

I don’t know about SP beet trains, but I have seen photos of UP and even Chicago & Alton hoppers in Colorado & Southern beet trains.


On Oct 24, 2020, at 10:11 AM, Paul Doggett via groups.io <paul.doggett2472@...> wrote:

RJ 

I have never seen a photo of one mine will be carrying scrap I think or timber .

Paul Doggett


On 24 Oct 2020, at 17:48, radiodial868 <radiodial57@...> wrote:

Looks like SP had the monopoly on California sugarbeets, and the Santa Fe moved Colorado beets.
So Paul, I'm guessing the next question you ask is, "would an AT&SF gondola ever end up in a consist of Southern Pacific beet gondolas?"
-------------------
RJ Dial

Mendocino, CA


Bob Chaparro
 

I credit SP expert Jason Hill for answering the question.

He stated, "There was a sugar beet loader at Arvin and several other jointly owned branches around the San Joaquin Valley. However, I believe these were handled by SP cars, which during ATSF operational periods on the branches were supplied by the SP in a reciprocal switching agreement, as the owner of the beets was sending them to the same refineries in CA regardless of which RR was operating the branch that year."
Bob Chaparro
Hemet, CA


Paul Doggett
 

Bob

Thank you more interesting information.

Paul Doggett


On 25 Oct 2020, at 02:53, Bob Chaparro via groups.io <chiefbobbb@...> wrote:



I credit SP expert Jason Hill for answering the question.

He stated, "There was a sugar beet loader at Arvin and several other jointly owned branches around the San Joaquin Valley. However, I believe these were handled by SP cars, which during ATSF operational periods on the branches were supplied by the SP in a reciprocal switching agreement, as the owner of the beets was sending them to the same refineries in CA regardless of which RR was operating the branch that year."
Bob Chaparro
Hemet, CA


Douglas Harding
 

Here is a poor quality photo of an ATSF stockcar being loaded with sugar beets, at Rocky Ford Colorado. ACS is American Crystal Sugar.

 

Everything I have sugar beets in California shows SP cars or cars owned by the sugar companies.

 

Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Paul Doggett via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, October 25, 2020 5:32 AM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] ATSF in California

 

Bob

 

Thank you more interesting information.

 

Paul Doggett



On 25 Oct 2020, at 02:53, Bob Chaparro via groups.io <chiefbobbb@...> wrote:



I credit SP expert Jason Hill for answering the question.

He stated, "There was a sugar beet loader at Arvin and several other jointly owned branches around the San Joaquin Valley. However, I believe these were handled by SP cars, which during ATSF operational periods on the branches were supplied by the SP in a reciprocal switching agreement, as the owner of the beets was sending them to the same refineries in CA regardless of which RR was operating the branch that year."
Bob Chaparro
Hemet, CA


Paul Doggett
 

Doug 

That’s am interesting photo.

Paul Doggett 


On 25 Oct 2020, at 13:05, Douglas Harding <iowacentralrr@...> wrote:



Here is a poor quality photo of an ATSF stockcar being loaded with sugar beets, at Rocky Ford Colorado. ACS is American Crystal Sugar.

 

Everything I have sugar beets in California shows SP cars or cars owned by the sugar companies.

 

Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Paul Doggett via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, October 25, 2020 5:32 AM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] ATSF in California

 

Bob

 

Thank you more interesting information.

 

Paul Doggett



On 25 Oct 2020, at 02:53, Bob Chaparro via groups.io <chiefbobbb@...> wrote:



I credit SP expert Jason Hill for answering the question.

He stated, "There was a sugar beet loader at Arvin and several other jointly owned branches around the San Joaquin Valley. However, I believe these were handled by SP cars, which during ATSF operational periods on the branches were supplied by the SP in a reciprocal switching agreement, as the owner of the beets was sending them to the same refineries in CA regardless of which RR was operating the branch that year."
Bob Chaparro
Hemet, CA

<Rocky Ford CO ACS beet dump.jpg>


Thomas Evans
 

Hey Doug,

I'm very interested in that beet dump photo you posted, want to know more, and, of course, would like a better rendition.
I'm from Rocky Ford & have family connections with the factory there.
I've not seen that kind of dump before.
Most are either of the type in the attached photos, or, of course, the modern steel traveling dumps.

Tom E.


Douglas Harding
 

Tom here is where the photo comes from. https://www.chieftain.com/article/20090329/NEWS/303299970

The information may or may not be correct. I agree the dump is not like any I’ve seen. Reminds me of a cinder dump seen at many steam engine service facilities. Based on the vintage of the stockcar I would say the dump is very early and perhaps was replaced with a design more like the images you shared.

 

Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Thomas Evans via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, October 25, 2020 8:29 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] ATSF in California

 

Hey Doug,

I'm very interested in that beet dump photo you posted, want to know more, and, of course, would like a better rendition.
I'm from Rocky Ford & have family connections with the factory there.
I've not seen that kind of dump before.
Most are either of the type in the attached photos, or, of course, the modern steel traveling dumps.

Tom E.


Garth Groff and Sally Sanford
 

Doug and friends,

Don't forget that the WP also loaded beets. WP's steel 46' GS gondolas were used for beet traffic. According to Jim Eager's WESTERN PACIFIC COLOR GUIDE, beets were loaded at Gerlach, Nevada, for processing at Spreckles. And mentioned earlier, there was a sugar plant at Clarksburg on WP's subsidiary Sacramento Northern. I also seem to remember that there was a beet loader on the SN's Woodland Branch.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🦆

On Sun, Oct 25, 2020 at 9:05 AM Douglas Harding <iowacentralrr@...> wrote:

Here is a poor quality photo of an ATSF stockcar being loaded with sugar beets, at Rocky Ford Colorado. ACS is American Crystal Sugar.

 

Everything I have sugar beets in California shows SP cars or cars owned by the sugar companies.

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Paul Doggett via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, October 25, 2020 5:32 AM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] ATSF in California

 

Bob

 

Thank you more interesting information.

 

Paul Doggett



On 25 Oct 2020, at 02:53, Bob Chaparro via groups.io <chiefbobbb@...> wrote:



I credit SP expert Jason Hill for answering the question.

He stated, "There was a sugar beet loader at Arvin and several other jointly owned branches around the San Joaquin Valley. However, I believe these were handled by SP cars, which during ATSF operational periods on the branches were supplied by the SP in a reciprocal switching agreement, as the owner of the beets was sending them to the same refineries in CA regardless of which RR was operating the branch that year."
Bob Chaparro
Hemet, CA


Paul Doggett
 

Garth 

Thank you.

Paul Doggett.   England 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 


On 25 Oct 2020, at 18:17, Garth Groff and Sally Sanford <mallardlodge1000@...> wrote:


Doug and friends,

Don't forget that the WP also loaded beets. WP's steel 46' GS gondolas were used for beet traffic. According to Jim Eager's WESTERN PACIFIC COLOR GUIDE, beets were loaded at Gerlach, Nevada, for processing at Spreckles. And mentioned earlier, there was a sugar plant at Clarksburg on WP's subsidiary Sacramento Northern. I also seem to remember that there was a beet loader on the SN's Woodland Branch.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🦆

On Sun, Oct 25, 2020 at 9:05 AM Douglas Harding <iowacentralrr@...> wrote:

Here is a poor quality photo of an ATSF stockcar being loaded with sugar beets, at Rocky Ford Colorado. ACS is American Crystal Sugar.

 

Everything I have sugar beets in California shows SP cars or cars owned by the sugar companies.

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Paul Doggett via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, October 25, 2020 5:32 AM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] ATSF in California

 

Bob

 

Thank you more interesting information.

 

Paul Doggett



On 25 Oct 2020, at 02:53, Bob Chaparro via groups.io <chiefbobbb@...> wrote:



I credit SP expert Jason Hill for answering the question.

He stated, "There was a sugar beet loader at Arvin and several other jointly owned branches around the San Joaquin Valley. However, I believe these were handled by SP cars, which during ATSF operational periods on the branches were supplied by the SP in a reciprocal switching agreement, as the owner of the beets was sending them to the same refineries in CA regardless of which RR was operating the branch that year."
Bob Chaparro
Hemet, CA


Bill Parks
 

Prior to reading this thread and looking at the pictures, I was unaware that stock cars had hatches on their roofs.  Other than for loading bulk commodities like shown here, what were these hatches used for?  Also, was it common for stock cars to have these later on, or were they a feature of just earlier stock cars?

Thanks

--
Bill Parks
Cumming, GA
Modelling the Seaboard Airline in Central Florida


Bruce Smith
 

Bill,

It's mostly an early thing, and allowed the stock to be fed and watered from the roof. It mostly went away when the stock transportation rules began to require resting stock after so many hours, so they were no longer fed on the cars, but rather at the rest stops.

Regards,
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Bill Parks via groups.io <BPARKS_43@...>
Sent: Sunday, October 25, 2020 2:12 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] ATSF in California
 
Prior to reading this thread and looking at the pictures, I was unaware that stock cars had hatches on their roofs.  Other than for loading bulk commodities like shown here, what were these hatches used for?  Also, was it common for stock cars to have these later on, or were they a feature of just earlier stock cars?

Thanks

--
Bill Parks
Cumming, GA
Modelling the Seaboard Airline in Central Florida


Garth Groff and Sally Sanford
 

Bill,

I can't speak about 19th century cars, but in the early 20th century there were some large blocks of "convertible" cars that could do double-duty, perhaps to make some money on the back hauls. Stock cars were among these cars, sometimes being used for coal or coke, which could be loaded through roof hatches, and emptied through bottom gates. Two different ATSF classes are shown in the 1919 CBD (reprinted as Gregg Train Shed Cyclopedia #36).

Common boxcars were also sometimes built with floor gates. The GN experimented with hopper-bottom boxcars, and a kit was once offered by F&C (not in their catalog last time I looked). Even California's Northern Electric Railway (later Sacramento Northern) had some 36' wooden boxcars with roof hatches and floor gates for grain. Several such cars which survived as farm sheds finally bought the dust in the 1990s: https://www.wplives.org/sn/nebox.html .

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🦆


On Sun, Oct 25, 2020 at 3:12 PM Bill Parks via groups.io <BPARKS_43=YAHOO.COM@groups.io> wrote:
Prior to reading this thread and looking at the pictures, I was unaware that stock cars had hatches on their roofs.  Other than for loading bulk commodities like shown here, what were these hatches used for?  Also, was it common for stock cars to have these later on, or were they a feature of just earlier stock cars?

Thanks

--
Bill Parks
Cumming, GA
Modelling the Seaboard Airline in Central Florida


Bill Parks
 

Bruce & Garth - 

Thanks for the info.  This is a car type I don't know a lot about (hauling livestock was not a priority on the Seaboard - they had less than 50 stock cars in the early 50s).  Glad to learn something new today.
--
Bill Parks
Cumming, GA
Modelling the Seaboard Airline in Central Florida


Jim Gates
 


The Santa Fe Sk-H, I, K, L, N, and P classes were built with Caswell drop bottoms and roof hatches. There were several thousand of them. As Garth says, they were primarily designed to allow hauling coke, but as long as the beets were bigger than the gaps in the slats, they were perfectly suited for this service. These are not the same as the feeding roof hatches on earlier cars.

Jim Gates

On Sunday, October 25, 2020, 02:32:57 PM CDT, Garth Groff and Sally Sanford <mallardlodge1000@...> wrote:


Bill,

I can't speak about 19th century cars, but in the early 20th century there were some large blocks of "convertible" cars that could do double-duty, perhaps to make some money on the back hauls. Stock cars were among these cars, sometimes being used for coal or coke, which could be loaded through roof hatches, and emptied through bottom gates. Two different ATSF classes are shown in the 1919 CBD (reprinted as Gregg Train Shed Cyclopedia #36).

Common boxcars were also sometimes built with floor gates. The GN experimented with hopper-bottom boxcars, and a kit was once offered by F&C (not in their catalog last time I looked). Even California's Northern Electric Railway (later Sacramento Northern) had some 36' wooden boxcars with roof hatches and floor gates for grain. Several such cars which survived as farm sheds finally bought the dust in the 1990s: https://www.wplives.org/sn/nebox.html .

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🦆

On Sun, Oct 25, 2020 at 3:12 PM Bill Parks via groups.io <BPARKS_43=YAHOO.COM@groups.io> wrote:
Prior to reading this thread and looking at the pictures, I was unaware that stock cars had hatches on their roofs.  Other than for loading bulk commodities like shown here, what were these hatches used for?  Also, was it common for stock cars to have these later on, or were they a feature of just earlier stock cars?

Thanks

--
Bill Parks
Cumming, GA
Modelling the Seaboard Airline in Central Florida