Topics

ATSF Mineral Brown

ottokroutil
 

Tru-scale markets two shades of Santa Fe Mineral Brown, what they call pre and post ‘45 versions, with the latter somewhat more red. Richard Hendrickson’s SFRy. Painting and Lettering Guide by the old SFMO has no such distinction, although it does note Mineral Brown varied from shop to shop over the years somewhat. Was there a change of specs at the end of WWII, or just incidental variations due to regional supplier and manufacturer differences?
I have some new Intermountain Bx-37’s in the pre-47 slogan/straight map scheme, and I’d like to get the color right. Advice appreciated.
Otto K.

Tony Thompson
 

otto kroutil wrote:

Tru-scale markets two shades of Santa Fe Mineral Brown, what they call pre and post ‘45 versions, with the latter somewhat more red. Richard Hendrickson’s SFRy. Painting and Lettering Guide by the old SFMO has no such distinction, although it does note Mineral Brown varied from shop to shop over the years somewhat. Was there a change of specs at the end of WWII, or just incidental variations due to regional supplier and manufacturer differences?
Richard did not believe the Santa Fe changed its Mineral Brown color in 1945, though he freely acknowledged that shop applications varied.

Tony Thompson
tony@...

Tim O'Connor
 


Ed Hawkins' scan of ATSF paint samples from 1931 and 1945 (PPG) show a 'red shift'



On 5/28/2020 8:15 PM, Tony Thompson wrote:
otto kroutil wrote:

Tru-scale markets two shades of Santa Fe Mineral Brown, what they call pre and post ‘45 versions, with the latter somewhat more red. Richard Hendrickson’s SFRy. Painting and Lettering Guide by the old SFMO has no such distinction, although it does note Mineral Brown varied from shop to shop over the years somewhat. Was there a change of specs at the end of WWII, or just incidental variations due to regional supplier and manufacturer differences?

     Richard did not believe the Santa Fe changed its Mineral Brown color in 1945, though he freely acknowledged that shop applications varied.

Tony Thompson

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

Nelson Moyer
 

Ed was the color consultant for Tru Color, ergo Tru Color offers both freight car colors.

 

Nelson Moyer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Tim O'Connor
Sent: Friday, May 29, 2020 6:18 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] ATSF Mineral Brown

 


Ed Hawkins' scan of ATSF paint samples from 1931 and 1945 (PPG) show a 'red shift'



On 5/28/2020 8:15 PM, Tony Thompson wrote:

otto kroutil wrote:
 
Tru-scale markets two shades of Santa Fe Mineral Brown, what they call pre and post ‘45 versions, with the latter somewhat more red. Richard Hendrickson’s SFRy. Painting and Lettering Guide by the old SFMO has no such distinction, although it does note Mineral Brown varied from shop to shop over the years somewhat. Was there a change of specs at the end of WWII, or just incidental variations due to regional supplier and manufacturer differences?
 
     Richard did not believe the Santa Fe changed its Mineral Brown color in 1945, though he freely acknowledged that shop applications varied.
 
Tony Thompson


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

Norm Buckhart
 

On May 29, 2020, at 5:03 AM, Nelson Moyer <npmoyer@...> wrote:

Ed was the color consultant for Tru Color, ergo Tru Color offers both freight car colors.
 
Nelson Moyer
 
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.ioOn Behalf Of Tim O'Connor
Sent: Friday, May 29, 2020 6:18 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] ATSF Mineral Brown
 

Ed Hawkins’ scan of ATSF paint samples from 1931 and 1945 (PPG) show a 'red shift'


the text in the center paragraph was written by Richard and gives the TCP numbers and dates applied:




On 5/28/2020 8:15 PM, Tony Thompson wrote:
otto kroutil wrote:
 
Tru-scale markets two shades of Santa Fe Mineral Brown, what they call pre and post ‘45 versions, with the latter somewhat more red. Richard Hendrickson’s SFRy. Painting and Lettering Guide by the old SFMO has no such distinction, although it does note Mineral Brown varied from shop to shop over the years somewhat. Was there a change of specs at the end of WWII, or just incidental variations due to regional supplier and manufacturer differences?
 
     Richard did not believe the Santa Fe changed its Mineral Brown color in 1945, though he freely acknowledged that shop applications varied.
 
Tony Thompson

-- 
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


John Moore
 

I could not find Tru Scale model railroad paint as mentioned in the message string.  I could find Tru Color model railroad paint.  I believe that is the paint being referred to.

John in Albuquerque  -- --
okladivjohn@...

Ed Hawkins
 



On May 29, 2020, at 7:03 AM, Nelson Moyer <npmoyer@...> wrote:

Ed Hawkins' scan of ATSF paint samples from 1931 and 1945 (PPG) show a 'red shift'

STMFC,
To supplement Nelson’s point for cars built in the first group that follows, the ACF bills of materials for a number of Santa Fe freight cars built from 1931 to 1944 are consistently the same shade of Mineral Brown. The hue is a dark shade of brown with a flat finish. The equivalent Tru-Color paint number is TCP-19. These documents for equipment built by ACF from lot 1200 (1931) to lots in the upper 3600s (1952) are at the Barriger National Railroad Library. Not all ACF bills of materials have paint samples, however, ATSF had more than most railroads.

Lot 1200, 1931 Bx-13
Lot 1607, 1937 Bx-27
Lot 1973, 1940 Ga-50 Hart ballast
Lot 1974, 1940 Ga-49 gondola
Lot 2163, 1941 Ga-56 Hart ballast
Lot 2674, 1944 Ga-59 Hart ballast

The 2nd group of Santa Fe cars having paint samples in the ACF bills of materials are from late 1948 to 1951. These also specify “Mineral Brown but of a red-brown hue and medium gloss finish. 

Lot 3286, Jan. 1949, Ga-67 covered hopper
Lot 3287, Apr. 1949, Ga-68 gondola
Lot 3333, May 1949, Ga-69 gondola
Lot 3334, Aug. 1949, Ga-74 Hart ballast
Lot 3335, Dec. 1948, Ga-73 triple hopper
Lot 3550, July 1951, Ga-80 gondola

The color is a close match to the old Floquil RR74 “Boxcar Red” that was sold in a bottle with square corners & a common color used by numerous railroads in the postwar years. 

For the Santa Fe postwar freight cars the ACF bills of materials typically specified “synthentic” Mineral Brown from Pittsburgh, Sherwin-Williams, and Glidden. While in general the postwar Santa Fe lots were no longer the dark shade of Mineral Brown, there were some variations in the red-brown shades when comparing them side by side.  Tru-Color offers a number of paint numbers that are a reasonably-close match to the postwar ATSF Mineral Brown: TCP-188, 193, 197, 202, 210, 213-214, 216, 217, 220-223. 234-235, 237-245.

I’m curious if there exists any Bowles color drift cards for ATSF Mineral Brown from the steam era. These drift cards have dates & should reflect the change of shade from the prewar years, World War II years, and postwar years. The only ATSF Mineral Brown Bowles color drift card I’ve seen is dated Feb. 1963. For what it’s worth the Feb. 1963 drift card is a lighter red-brown shade than lot 3286 & any of the postwar ATSF paint samples. 

Hope this helps.
Ed Hawkins




Allan Smith
 

Pat Wider's article in PR Cyc #3 Vintage Box Car Painting and Lettering  on page 37 Shows a change in Mineral Brown from the 40's to the 50's. Of course these are old paint matches ATSF 40's Floquil #179 ATSF 50's Accu-paint #12. Richard Hendricksons SF painting and lettering guide just states Mineral Brown no shade difference between 1931 and 1968.

Al Smith
Sonora CA

On Thursday, May 28, 2020, 05:16:09 PM PDT, Tony Thompson <tony@...> wrote:


otto kroutil wrote:

> Tru-scale markets two shades of Santa Fe Mineral Brown, what they call pre and post ‘45 versions, with the latter somewhat more red. Richard Hendrickson’s SFRy. Painting and Lettering Guide by the old SFMO has no such distinction, although it does note Mineral Brown varied from shop to shop over the years somewhat. Was there a change of specs at the end of WWII, or just incidental variations due to regional supplier and manufacturer differences?

    Richard did not believe the Santa Fe changed its Mineral Brown color in 1945, though he freely acknowledged that shop applications varied.

Tony Thompson
tony@...





Doug Pillow
 

 I  know its not perfect but for me post '45 I mixed half Scalecoat II  Boxcar red and Tuscan red Doug Pillow

Roger Huber
 

Unless you're building a model for a builder's photo any combination and variation on a similar of close color ought to be good for our models. Paint, especially back then, had wider color range than what we have today. 

Roger Huber
Deer Creek Locomotive Works


On Friday, May 29, 2020, 02:38:29 PM CDT, Doug Pillow <jssp46@...> wrote:


 I  know its not perfect but for me post '45 I mixed half Scalecoat II  Boxcar red and Tuscan red Doug Pillow

Tony Thompson
 

Roger Huber wrote:

Unless you're building a model for a builder's photo any combination and variation on a similar of close color ought to be good for our models. Paint, especially back then, had wider color range than what we have today. 

       Good point, Roger. I recall the retired PFE Chief Mechanical Officer telling me about the PFE representatives at manufacturing plants, who had to decide, on the basis of color drift panels in their possession, if a paint being applied by a builder was "close enough" to the color drift. They had to use their judgement because there were always variations from any paint company.

Tony Thompson



Nelson Moyer
 

It may be apocryphal, but I was told that early CB&Q paint shop instructions for mixing mineral red (the Q called it Indian Red) was by the number of handfuls of the red pigment they mined in Wyoming per volume of base paint being mixed. Not precise by any means. At lease the pigment color was relatively consistent, having been mined at one location. The geological name of the crushed rock used escapes me.

 

Nelson Moyer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Tony Thompson
Sent: Saturday, May 30, 2020 12:23 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] ATSF Mineral Brown

 

Roger Huber wrote:



Unless you're building a model for a builder's photo any combination and variation on a similar of close color ought to be good for our models. Paint, especially back then, had wider color range than what we have today. 

 

       Good point, Roger. I recall the retired PFE Chief Mechanical Officer telling me about the PFE representatives at manufacturing plants, who had to decide, on the basis of color drift panels in their possession, if a paint being applied by a builder was "close enough" to the color drift. They had to use their judgement because there were always variations from any paint company.

 

Tony Thompson

 

 

ottokroutil
 

Yes, clearly there were variations over time and place. My original question was in part a reaction to the recent release by Intermountain of Bx-37’s in N scale. Nicely done models, but...
Well, see pics below. Both are IM cars. If I’m the company rep asked to use my judgment, what do I do?
Regards, Otto

Nelson Moyer
 

All the more reason to avoid Intermountain RTR and build resin, where you paint it yourself. Let the unwashed masses support their business model.

Nelson Moyer

-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of ottokroutil via groups.io
Sent: Saturday, May 30, 2020 6:56 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] ATSF Mineral Brown

Yes, clearly there were variations over time and place. My original question was in part a reaction to the recent release by Intermountain of Bx-37’s in N scale. Nicely done models, but...
Well, see pics below. Both are IM cars. If I’m the company rep asked to use my judgment, what do I do?
Regards, Otto

BRIAN PAUL EHNI
 

After receiving a purple Chateau Martin wine car, instead of the magenta they actually used, I want to lay eyes on anything coming from Intermountain. I will not pre-order anything except undecorated kits.


Thanks!
--

Brian Ehni

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of ottokroutil via groups.io
Sent: Saturday, May 30, 2020 6:56 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] ATSF Mineral Brown

Yes, clearly there were variations over time and place. My original question was in part a reaction to the recent release by Intermountain of Bx-37’s in N scale. Nicely done models, but...
Well, see pics below. Both are IM cars. If I’m the company rep asked to use my judgment, what do I do?
Regards, Otto

Nelson Moyer
 

Intermountain isn't the only miscreant. I had the same problem with a purple RI E6 from BLI. Not even close to RI maroon. Then there are the six shades of CB&Q gray from Walthers (three different shades on GP-7s and SD-7s), BLI (two different shades on NW-2 and SW-9), and Bowser (actually the closest to the Q color card). I ended up masking and repainting the grays. I haven’t repainted the purple on the E6, but it's begging me to do so.

Nelson Moyer

-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of BRIAN PAUL EHNI
Sent: Saturday, May 30, 2020 7:21 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] ATSF Mineral Brown

After receiving a purple Chateau Martin wine car, instead of the magenta they actually used, I want to lay eyes on anything coming from Intermountain. I will not pre-order anything except undecorated kits.


Thanks!
--

Brian Ehni

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of ottokroutil via groups.io
Sent: Saturday, May 30, 2020 6:56 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] ATSF Mineral Brown

Yes, clearly there were variations over time and place. My original question was in part a reaction to the recent release by Intermountain of Bx-37’s in N scale. Nicely done models, but...
Well, see pics below. Both are IM cars. If I’m the company rep asked to use my judgment, what do I do?
Regards, Otto

Bob Chaparro
 

On another group Bill Jolitz commented, "...I have a drift card sample of PFE roof red.  It matches NONE of the reefers ever produced over the years."

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA