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B&O frequency of repaints; how comprehensive was application of capital dome medallion
I’m modelling a USRA single sheathed car c 1946 - unfortunately, without the benefit of a correctly dated reference photo. For the moment, i’m leaning toward the look of an extremely war-worn pre-WWII paint job, taking colour references from mid and immediate post war colour images of other B&O car types. So the question is whether it makes sense to use the lettering scheme (without the dome) that lasted to 1937? OR was B&O repainting and stencilling frequently enough that this becomes very improbable for 1946?
Rob
Rob
Rob,
My take is that the Rapido paint scheme (assuming that is part of the question) is good for the 40s. The B&O only had 500 of the USRA boxcars and they were quickly retired in the early 50s (kbrakes?) except for some with hopper bays added (M-24A) that latest into repaints and the 50s in this special service. The photo in the Rapido adverts for the B&O USRA car is a M-24A car as it is in a different number series than the bulk of the M-24 boxcars. And if you look close you see the “hopper” bays under the car. In ‘47 there were 459 M-24 boxcars, in 1954 there were 60. No definitive answer, but I haven’t seen a photo of an M-24 in a more modern paint scheme in revenue service.
My take is that the Rapido paint scheme (assuming that is part of the question) is good for the 40s. The B&O only had 500 of the USRA boxcars and they were quickly retired in the early 50s (kbrakes?) except for some with hopper bays added (M-24A) that latest into repaints and the 50s in this special service. The photo in the Rapido adverts for the B&O USRA car is a M-24A car as it is in a different number series than the bulk of the M-24 boxcars. And if you look close you see the “hopper” bays under the car. In ‘47 there were 459 M-24 boxcars, in 1954 there were 60. No definitive answer, but I haven’t seen a photo of an M-24 in a more modern paint scheme in revenue service.
List member Chris Barkan’s boxcar lettering guide, https://borhs.org/logos/CBarkan/BOBoxcarStenciling1920-60s.pdf
My blog on the M-24 https://bomodeling.com/2022/10/12/bo-m-24-usra-40-boxcar-achieving-a-color-shift-on-a-rapido-model/
Happy to dig deeper to answer your question.
Best Regards,
Bruce D. Griffin
Ashland, MD
https://bomodeling.com/blog/
Hi Bruce,
I really like the way your model came out.
My approach was to remove the lettering with 99% IPA, and then start repainting with Vallejo colours. The first layer is a combination of German Black Brown, Basalt Gray and white, which produces a really ugly neutral brown/gray shade that I will add browns over top of to create a very worn look. I have the K4 decals, so not too far away from lettering the car.
My question was whether to include the capital dome medallion or omit it. In a way, its a question about whether the capital domes started to be applied to used equipment being repainted in 1937/1938, or if that new scheme was delayed on repainted cars for a couple of years. I’m not at all familiar with the speed the new logo was adopted, nor the frequency B&O repainted its equipment at the end of the 1930s and leading into WWII.
I am thinking about it this way: if the domes started to be added on new equipment at the end of 1937, that doesn't necessarily mean domes were applied to re-painted older equipment at that date. If there was a couple of years delay before the shops applied domes on older cars, then I could model a car repainted maybe 7 years before my modelling year without the dome - and it won’t be too big a stretch. But if the domes were applied to used equipment by the end of 1937, I need to add the dome.
Rob
On Feb 25, 2023, at 10:13 PM, Bruce Griffin <bdg1210@...> wrote:
Rob,
My take is that the Rapido paint scheme (assuming that is part of the question) is good for the 40s. The B&O only had 500 of the USRA boxcars and they were quickly retired in the early 50s (kbrakes?) except for some with hopper bays added (M-24A) that latest into repaints and the 50s in this special service. The photo in the Rapido adverts for the B&O USRA car is a M-24A car as it is in a different number series than the bulk of the M-24 boxcars. And if you look close you see the “hopper” bays under the car. In ‘47 there were 459 M-24 boxcars, in 1954 there were 60. No definitive answer, but I haven’t seen a photo of an M-24 in a more modern paint scheme in revenue service.
My take is that the Rapido paint scheme (assuming that is part of the question) is good for the 40s. The B&O only had 500 of the USRA boxcars and they were quickly retired in the early 50s (kbrakes?) except for some with hopper bays added (M-24A) that latest into repaints and the 50s in this special service. The photo in the Rapido adverts for the B&O USRA car is a M-24A car as it is in a different number series than the bulk of the M-24 boxcars. And if you look close you see the “hopper” bays under the car. In ‘47 there were 459 M-24 boxcars, in 1954 there were 60. No definitive answer, but I haven’t seen a photo of an M-24 in a more modern paint scheme in revenue service.
List member Chris Barkan’s boxcar lettering guide, https://borhs.org/logos/CBarkan/BOBoxcarStenciling1920-60s.pdf
My blog on the M-24 https://bomodeling.com/2022/10/12/bo-m-24-usra-40-boxcar-achieving-a-color-shift-on-a-rapido-model/
Happy to dig deeper to answer your question.
Best Regards,
Bruce D. Griffin
Ashland, MD
https://bomodeling.com/blog/
Chris Barkan
Actually, I think that for any B&O lettering scheme the roof on the Rapido car probably needs to be replaced for the car to be correct. I am unaware of any B&O M-24 boxcars cars of any era with the Hutchins roof. In 2021 when the car was announced, we understood that Rapido would include the original, "as-delivered" roof among the options produced, but, at least so far they have not. The B&O did replace the roofs on their M-24s but every photo we have seen is of a design that differs from both the Murphy and Hutchins roofs.
____________
Chris Barkan
Champaign, IL
____________
Chris Barkan
Champaign, IL
ah, one of those “the more you know, the less you can model” situations. Would the Tichy roof be more appropriate by WWII?
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Rob
On Feb 26, 2023, at 12:21 PM, Chris Barkan <cplbarkan@...> wrote:
Actually, I think that for any B&O lettering scheme the roof on the Rapido car probably needs to be replaced for the car to be correct. I am unaware of any B&O M-24 boxcars cars of any era with the Hutchins roof. In 2021 when the car was announced, we understood that Rapido would include the original, "as-delivered" roof among the options produced, but, at least so far they have not. The B&O did replace the roofs on their M-24s but every photo we have seen is of a design that differs from both the Murphy and Hutchins roofs.
____________
Chris Barkan
Champaign, IL
____________
Chris Barkan
Champaign, IL
Jim Mischke
Clarification: A couple hundred B&O M-24 were converted to company service effective around 1953. Most had AB brakes, then or afterwards. B&O was militant about the AB brake refit thing, even on MofW cars. M-24's did not disappear from revenue service due to obsolescent K-brakes.
New information: During 1947-1948, B&O had specific capital budget for having Youngstown aftermarket steel sides applied to the fleet. Project cancelled while still a budgeted paper proposal. Since B&O was seriously entertaining a life extension program, no surpise that many survived into 1953.
Clarification: The latest scheme applied to M-24 boxcars was the late 13 Great States scheme, with the 13 Great States logo, applied to shopped cars after 1946. Either bright red oxide or freight car brown, evidently there were more cars to paint than new paint.
Any Billboard B&O scheme (post-1953) would not fit on this car.
For Rob's question:
- The replacement B&O Freight Car Brown Rapido shell and its greenish RTR prdecessor are in the first Kuhler scheme with the Kuhler capitol dome on the left, applied to shopped cars during 1937-1940. Great for Rob's theme. Right out of the box(es).
- A 1926-based scheme with the dome omitted, applied on shopped cars 1926-1937 would also be great for Rob's 1946 theme.
- During 1945-46, B&O instituted bright red oxide commercial paint and the 13 great states herald, applied shopped cars during 1945-46, some red, some brown. great for Rob's 1946 theme.
- Rob has lots of flexibility here. We should all so fortunate. :)
Attached are thee illustrative photos. First is an M-24a cement hopper variation illustrating the 1937-1940 scheme. Second dates from MofW days after 1953, which muddies insights about their revenue appearance. Just a little. Shows the 1946-53 appearance. Third is a bedraggled M-24 in its revenue number in 1968, bright oxide red, 13 Great States logo, "B&O" reporting mark, 1946-1953 scheme.
An aside: Remember that as a freight car class dies off, we get enthused if an ORER shows two of something still left in a favorite year like 1960. Yippee! Unfortunately, oversight or understaffing, scrapped equipment remains on the books. ORER's contain some zombies. One railroader friend was assigned by his D&H employer in the 1970's to sort out the ORER mess. He found hundreds of ghost D&H freight cars to expunge. Looks like a mass retirement or paleotology boxcar herd tar-pit. No so.
On the other extreme are two found CNJ USRA-like survivors very late, in revenue numbers. Goody! A rare Accurail triumph! Turns out they were in interplant service between two zinc plants three miles apart at Palmerton. Unless modeling Palmerton in those years, they are not plausible traffic for anyone.
Hi Jim,
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Thanks for taking the time to lay this out. I’ve now received my “brown” shell from Rapido (thanks Rapido!) with the first Kuhler capital dome. Meanwhile, I stripped the paint off the original shell and will do it in the earlier 1926-1937 scheme. As of 1946, the Kuhler dome car will look old, but the other car will look desperate for paint. I am fortunate! As yet, i’ve not tried a Tichy or Accurail floor in the shell, so i have a bit of work before i’ll have a finished second car in the fleet.
Rob
On Mar 14, 2023, at 4:13 PM, Jim Mischke <jmischke@...> wrote:
Clarification: A couple hundred B&O M-24 were converted to company service effective around 1953. Most had AB brakes, then or afterwards. B&O was militant about the AB brake refit thing, even on MofW cars. M-24's did not disappear from revenue service due to obsolescent K-brakes.
New information: During 1947-1948, B&O had specific capital budget for having Youngstown aftermarket steel sides applied to the fleet. Project cancelled while still a budgeted paper proposal. Since B&O was seriously entertaining a life extension program, no surpise that many survived into 1953.
Clarification: The latest scheme applied to M-24 boxcars was the late 13 Great States scheme, with the 13 Great States logo, applied to shopped cars after 1946. Either bright red oxide or freight car brown, evidently there were more cars to paint than new paint.
Any Billboard B&O scheme (post-1953) would not fit on this car.
For Rob's question:
- The replacement B&O Freight Car Brown Rapido shell and its greenish RTR prdecessor are in the first Kuhler scheme with the Kuhler capitol dome on the left, applied to shopped cars during 1937-1940. Great for Rob's theme. Right out of the box(es).
- A 1926-based scheme with the dome omitted, applied on shopped cars 1926-1937 would also be great for Rob's 1946 theme.
- During 1945-46, B&O instituted bright red oxide commercial paint and the 13 great states herald, applied shopped cars during 1945-46, some red, some brown. great for Rob's 1946 theme.
- Rob has lots of flexibility here. We should all so fortunate. :)
Attached are thee illustrative photos. First is an M-24a cement hopper variation illustrating the 1937-1940 scheme. Second dates from MofW days after 1953, which muddies insights about their revenue appearance. Just a little. Shows the 1946-53 appearance. Third is a bedraggled M-24 in its revenue number in 1968, bright oxide red, 13 Great States logo, "B&O" reporting mark, 1946-1953 scheme.
An aside: Remember that as a freight car class dies off, we get enthused if an ORER shows two of something still left in a favorite year like 1960. Yippee! Unfortunately, oversight or understaffing, scrapped equipment remains on the books. ORER's contain some zombies. One railroader friend was assigned by his D&H employer in the 1970's to sort out the ORER mess. He found hundreds of ghost D&H freight cars to expunge. Looks like a mass retirement or paleotology boxcar herd tar-pit. No so.
On the other extreme are two found CNJ USRA-like survivors very late, in revenue numbers. Goody! A rare Accurail triumph! Turns out they were in interplant service between two zinc plants three miles apart at Palmerton. Unless modeling Palmerton in those years, they are not plausible traffic for anyone.