Bobber 4-wheel cabooses


wrlyders
 

I was fascinated by the recent stories about that caboose in Golden, CO.

 

But I am starting to build a 4 wheel caboose and would like to see if there are any pictures or diagrams of said cabooses from the C&O, N&W, or Southern railroads.

 

I live in northern VA and  know there is a Bobber caboose in the B&O museum in Baltimore which I haven’t seen yet. I recently saw one in Breckenridge, CO though.

 

So I am reaching out to this esteemed group for assistance. My internet searching is coming up a little short on info especially on inside design and dimensions.

 

Thanks,

 

Bill L

 


Drew M.
 

I know of two:

A Lehigh & New England bobber on the Wanamaker, Kempton & Southern

A Buffalo, Rochester & Pittsburg bobber at the DiscoveRY Museum in Buffalo, NY.

Also, Strasburg Rail Road has a PRR ND.

Drew Marshall in frozen Philly, Pa.

On Jan 15, 2022, at 16:11, "wrlyders via groups.io" <verizon.net@groups.io target=_blank>blyders=verizon.net@groups.io> wrote:

I was fascinated by the recent stories about that caboose in Golden, CO.

 

But I am starting to build a 4 wheel caboose and would like to see if there are any pictures or diagrams of said cabooses from the C&O, N&W, or Southern railroads.

 

I live in northern VA and  know there is a Bobber caboose in the B&O museum in Baltimore which I haven’t seen yet. I recently saw one in Breckenridge, CO though.

 

So I am reaching out to this esteemed group for assistance. My internet searching is coming up a little short on info especially on inside design and dimensions.

 

Thanks,

 

Bill L

 


Drew M.
 

I also just remembered that the Whippany Museum has an ex-Lackawanna bobber.

Drew still in frozen Philly.

On Jan 15, 2022, at 16:11, "wrlyders via groups.io" <verizon.net@groups.io target=_blank>blyders=verizon.net@groups.io> wrote:

I was fascinated by the recent stories about that caboose in Golden, CO.

 

But I am starting to build a 4 wheel caboose and would like to see if there are any pictures or diagrams of said cabooses from the C&O, N&W, or Southern railroads.

 

I live in northern VA and  know there is a Bobber caboose in the B&O museum in Baltimore which I haven’t seen yet. I recently saw one in Breckenridge, CO though.

 

So I am reaching out to this esteemed group for assistance. My internet searching is coming up a little short on info especially on inside design and dimensions.

 

Thanks,

 

Bill L

 


Philip Taylor
 

I believe MR in the past published plans of the Bobber used by the Ma&Pa 

Philip Taylor
drphilster@...

On Jan 15, 2022, 5:06 PM -0500, Drew M. via groups.io <phillydrewcifer@...>, wrote:
I also just remembered that the Whippany Museum has an ex-Lackawanna bobber.

Drew still in frozen Philly.

On Jan 15, 2022, at 16:11, "wrlyders via groups.io" <verizon.net@groups.io target=_blank>blyders=verizon.net@groups.io> wrote:

I was fascinated by the recent stories about that caboose in Golden, CO.

 

But I am starting to build a 4 wheel caboose and would like to see if there are any pictures or diagrams of said cabooses from the C&O, N&W, or Southern railroads.

 

I live in northern VA and  know there is a Bobber caboose in the B&O museum in Baltimore which I haven’t seen yet. I recently saw one in Breckenridge, CO though.

 

So I am reaching out to this esteemed group for assistance. My internet searching is coming up a little short on info especially on inside design and dimensions.

 

Thanks,

 

Bill L

 


Ray Breyer
 

PLANS:
CB&Q bobber, 1902 Railway Master Mechanic
CCC&StL bobber, 1906 Car Builders' Dictionary
NYLE&W bobber, 195 CBD
PRR bobber, 1913 CBD
NYC&HR bobber, 1883 National Car Builder

All volumes are available as free online downloads, usually on Google Books.

12 seconds on Google led me to a full bobber rebuild at Cass, with loads of photos.

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL



On Saturday, January 15, 2022, 04:24:12 PM CST, Philip Taylor <drphilster@...> wrote:


I believe MR in the past published plans of the Bobber used by the Ma&Pa 

Philip Taylor
drphilster@...
On Jan 15, 2022, 5:06 PM -0500, Drew M. via groups.io <phillydrewcifer@...>, wrote:
I also just remembered that the Whippany Museum has an ex-Lackawanna bobber.

Drew still in frozen Philly.

On Jan 15, 2022, at 16:11, "wrlyders via groups.io" <verizon.net@groups.io target=_blank>blyders=verizon.net@groups.io> wrote:

I was fascinated by the recent stories about that caboose in Golden, CO.

 

But I am starting to build a 4 wheel caboose and would like to see if there are any pictures or diagrams of said cabooses from the C&O, N&W, or Southern railroads.

 

I live in northern VA and  know there is a Bobber caboose in the B&O museum in Baltimore which I haven’t seen yet. I recently saw one in Breckenridge, CO though.

 

So I am reaching out to this esteemed group for assistance. My internet searching is coming up a little short on info especially on inside design and dimensions.

 

Thanks,

 

Bill L

 


Eric Hansmann
 

The bobber at Cass came from the Elk River Coal & Lumber operation. It has been speculated that it’s a former Coal & Coke Railway Caboose. 


Eric Hansmann
Murfreesboro, TN

On Jan 15, 2022, at 6:13 PM, Ray Breyer via groups.io <rtbsvrr69@...> wrote:

PLANS:
CB&Q bobber, 1902 Railway Master Mechanic
CCC&StL bobber, 1906 Car Builders' Dictionary
NYLE&W bobber, 195 CBD
PRR bobber, 1913 CBD
NYC&HR bobber, 1883 National Car Builder

All volumes are available as free online downloads, usually on Google Books.

12 seconds on Google led me to a full bobber rebuild at Cass, with loads of photos.

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL



On Saturday, January 15, 2022, 04:24:12 PM CST, Philip Taylor <drphilster@...> wrote:


I believe MR in the past published plans of the Bobber used by the Ma&Pa 

Philip Taylor
On Jan 15, 2022, 5:06 PM -0500, Drew M. via groups.io <phillydrewcifer@...>, wrote:
I also just remembered that the Whippany Museum has an ex-Lackawanna bobber.

Drew still in frozen Philly.

On Jan 15, 2022, at 16:11, "wrlyders via groups.io" <verizon.net@groups.io target=_blank>blyders=verizon.net@groups.io> wrote:

I was fascinated by the recent stories about that caboose in Golden, CO.

 

But I am starting to build a 4 wheel caboose and would like to see if there are any pictures or diagrams of said cabooses from the C&O, N&W, or Southern railroads.

 

I live in northern VA and  know there is a Bobber caboose in the B&O museum in Baltimore which I haven’t seen yet. I recently saw one in Breckenridge, CO though.

 

So I am reaching out to this esteemed group for assistance. My internet searching is coming up a little short on info especially on inside design and dimensions.

 

Thanks,

 

Bill L

 


Eric Hansmann
 

There are plans for a B&OCT 4-wheel caboose in a 1946 (I think) Model Railroader. The caboose is sans cupola.

Early B&O freight car diagram books have a detailed sketch of the K class 4-wheel cabooses with several important dimensions called out.

The 4-wheel caboose at the B&O Museum was originally owned by the Buffalo & Susquehanna.


Eric Hansmann
Murfreesboro, TN

On 01/15/2022 3:23 PM Philip Taylor <drphilster@...> wrote:


I believe MR in the past published plans of the Bobber used by the Ma&Pa 

Philip Taylor
drphilster@...


Ray Breyer
 

There's an original B&O bobber at the Monticello RR Museum (IL). No cupola, as it was used by the B&OCT in Chicago into the 1960s.

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL


On Saturday, January 15, 2022, 06:53:09 PM CST, Eric Hansmann <eric@...> wrote:


There are plans for a B&OCT 4-wheel caboose in a 1946 (I think) Model Railroader. The caboose is sans cupola.

Early B&O freight car diagram books have a detailed sketch of the K class 4-wheel cabooses with several important dimensions called out.

The 4-wheel caboose at the B&O Museum was originally owned by the Buffalo & Susquehanna.


Eric Hansmann
Murfreesboro, TN

On 01/15/2022 3:23 PM Philip Taylor <drphilster@...> wrote:


I believe MR in the past published plans of the Bobber used by the Ma&Pa 

Philip Taylor
drphilster@...


Drew M.
 

Model Railroader ran an article on Building a CB&Q bobber in the sixties. The model was O scale. The article was republished in the Kalmbach rolling stock book with many of the early "dollar car" series articles.

Drew Marshall in frozen Philly

On Jan 15, 2022, at 19:14, "Ray Breyer via groups.io" <yahoo.com@groups.io target=_blank>rtbsvrr69=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
PLANS:
CB&Q bobber, 1902 Railway Master Mechanic
CCC&StL bobber, 1906 Car Builders' Dictionary
NYLE&W bobber, 195 CBD
PRR bobber, 1913 CBD
NYC&HR bobber, 1883 National Car Builder

All volumes are available as free online downloads, usually on Google Books.

12 seconds on Google led me to a full bobber rebuild at Cass, with loads of photos.

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL



On Saturday, January 15, 2022, 04:24:12 PM CST, Philip Taylor <drphilster@...> wrote:


I believe MR in the past published plans of the Bobber used by the Ma&Pa 

Philip Taylor
drphilster@...
On Jan 15, 2022, 5:06 PM -0500, Drew M. via groups.io <phillydrewcifer@...>, wrote:
I also just remembered that the Whippany Museum has an ex-Lackawanna bobber.

Drew still in frozen Philly.

On Jan 15, 2022, at 16:11, "wrlyders via groups.io" < verizon.net@groups.io target=_blank>blyders= verizon.net@groups.io> wrote:

I was fascinated by the recent stories about that caboose in Golden, CO.

 

But I am starting to build a 4 wheel caboose and would like to see if there are any pictures or diagrams of said cabooses from the C&O, N&W, or Southern railroads.

 

I live in northern VA and  know there is a Bobber caboose in the B&O museum in Baltimore which I haven’t seen yet. I recently saw one in Breckenridge, CO though.

 

So I am reaching out to this esteemed group for assistance. My internet searching is coming up a little short on info especially on inside design and dimensions.

 

Thanks,

 

Bill L

 


Ken Vandevoort
 

Here is a list of bobber plans that I found on the Model Railroader 75 year CD.

PRR  Jan 36
WM  Mar 36
RDG May 37
DL&W Dec 44
Ma&Pa/PRR  May 45
B&O Sep 46
PRR Jul 52
H&BT Aug 53
CB&Q Nov 55
PRR Sep 60
NYC May 62
D&H Oct 65
MILW Mar 66
NYO&W Jan 74
CP Nov 76
C&PA Oct 78
LV JUN 83

Ken Vandevoort


akerboomk
 

Note the B&MRRHS has a B&M caboose book (originally done by Tim Gilbert for the Salisbury Point HS) available, but it is not listed on-line (at least I don't see it).
I have one somewhere I can't find it, but IIRC it does have a couple floor plans for B&M 4-wheel cabooses, and some very minimal dimensions
--
Ken Akerboom


Robert G P
 

And how long did these typically last in service? Ive always wondered if any lasted into the late transition era on a class 1 carrier.

Great topic!

-Bob

On Sun, Jan 16, 2022 at 9:35 AM akerboomk <ken-akerboom@...> wrote:
Note the B&MRRHS has a B&M caboose book (originally done by Tim Gilbert for the Salisbury Point HS) available, but it is not listed on-line (at least I don't see it).
I have one somewhere I can't find it, but IIRC it does have a couple floor plans for B&M 4-wheel cabooses, and some very minimal dimensions
--
Ken Akerboom


Eric Hansmann
 

I don’t have a definitive answer. I model 1926 and will need a few of these 4-wheel cabooses for the industrial branch I plan to model.

Some states banned the use of 4-wheel cabooses in the Teens. I think many survived in yard, industrial, and short branch line service. The B&OCT certainly used them late, as did the Cumberland and Pennsylvania (not a class one).

I suspect many were sold or scrapped in the 1930s as traffic slowed. Many lines already had larger 8-wheel cabooses by the 1930s, so older equipment would be deemed as excess.

Interestingly, the Western Maryland Railway didn’t add any 8-wheel cabooses until the mid-1930s, so their 4-wheel cabooses would have been used extensively to that point.

It boils down to the location, years, and service to determine longevity for these classic cars.


Eric Hansmann
Murfreesboro, TN

On Jan 16, 2022, at 10:03 AM, Robert G P <bobgp5109@gmail.com> wrote:

And how long did these typically last in service? Ive always wondered if any lasted into the late transition era on a class 1 carrier.

Great topic!

-Bob


Claus Schlund &#92;(HGM&#92;)
 


HI Eric, Bob, and List Members,
 
The PRR class ND cabin cars (PRR term for caboose) lasted pretty late. See attached image, Trenton NJ 1952.
 
Claus Schlund
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2022 11:28 AM
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Bobber 4-wheel cabooses

I don’t have a definitive answer. I model 1926 and will need a few of these 4-wheel cabooses for the industrial branch I plan to model.

Some states banned the use of 4-wheel cabooses in the Teens. I think many survived in yard, industrial, and short branch line service. The B&OCT certainly used them late, as did the Cumberland and Pennsylvania (not a class one). 

I suspect many were sold or scrapped in the 1930s as traffic slowed. Many lines already had larger 8-wheel cabooses by the 1930s, so older equipment would be deemed as excess.

Interestingly, the Western Maryland Railway didn’t add any 8-wheel cabooses until the mid-1930s, so their 4-wheel cabooses would have been used extensively to that point.

It boils down to the location, years, and service to determine longevity for these classic cars.


Eric Hansmann
Murfreesboro, TN

> On Jan 16, 2022, at 10:03 AM, Robert G P <bobgp5109@...> wrote:
>
> And how long did these typically last in service? Ive always wondered if any lasted into the late transition era on a class 1 carrier.
>
> Great topic!
>
> -Bob







akerboomk
 

Found my copy of the B&M caboose book
as of 1914 (ICC val) they had 76 4-wheel cars (out of total 428 cabooses)
By years end 1929 there were only 11
the last 3 disappeared between 1944 and 1949

I forgot I scanned the plans available in the car books and placed them on-line, here:
https://www.bmrrhs.org/scanned-freight-car-data

(see the section "Freight Car Classification Books"), there are 3 total plans of 4 wheel cabooses

--
Ken Akerboom


Edward
 

On the B&O, there were about 1,000 Class K-1 4-wheel cabooses built from 1878-1913 (including a number of them from acquired lines in that period).
Their last number series from 1913 was C-200 - C-1399.

Of them, some were still in service into the 1950's on the B&O Chicago Terminal and the B&O NY Terminal subsidiary, Staten Island Rapid Transit.
The 1913 the State of Ohio caboose law forbade operation of short, 4-wheel cabooses on the main railway lines, in that state.
B&O responded with the new 8-wheel design of Class I-1. 
PRR which had a class of longer bodied 4-wheel cabooses, converted some into 8 wheelers and went on to develop new 8-wheel cabooses.

Remaining 4-wheel cabooses on the B&O were at first re-assigned to other lines and branch line service outside of Ohio, and also sold many of them. 
A number of them remained and were used in terminal transfer and yard service. 

There were eight B&O Class K-1 cabooses assigned to NY Terminal service when the last link for B&O's connection into the NY was opened in 1890.
All were in service until 1952. 
Half of them got new steel underframes in the 1930's and all lost their cupolas by 1943.
The NY Terminal K-1 cabooses were replaced with five I-1 Class 8-wheel cabooses in 1952, with all the K-1's burned for scrap (about one a week, to the great distress of neighborhood  area residents) at Arlington Yard on Staten Island.

Ed Bommer

Below: 
C587a = B&O K-1 caboose C-537 as it appeared in 1940, at the St. George Yard. 
C587b-1 = B&O K-1 caboose C-537 in 1949, after a visit to the St. George RIP track which removed the cupola in 1943 and gave it a quick paint job. 
003a = An O scale model of B&O C-587 rebuilt from a Train Craft kit I originally built when I was as a teen in 1954. Has B&O pre-WW II livery of Freight Car Brown.
068 = A scratch-built, with full interior and underbody detail) O scale model of B&O C-721 I built in 1985, in B&O Post-War caboose Devil's Red paint.


steve_wintner
 

Nice models Ed!


Eric Hansmann
 

More images of Ed’s 4-wheel caboose are in this blog post. Plus extra detail on the B&O prototypes. 


Eric Hansmann
Murfreesboro, TN

On Jan 16, 2022, at 2:03 PM, steve_wintner via groups.io <steve_wintner@...> wrote:

Nice models Ed!


wrlyders
 

I have been swamped by so much lovely information on Bobber Cabooses. I will need some time to sort thru it all.

 

I thank you all so very much.

 

Bill L

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Eric Hansmann
Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2022 3:17 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Bobber 4-wheel cabooses

 

More images of Ed’s 4-wheel caboose are in this blog post. Plus extra detail on the B&O prototypes. 

 

Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN


On Jan 16, 2022, at 2:03 PM, steve_wintner via groups.io <steve_wintner@...> wrote:

Nice models Ed!


Bruce Smith
 

Obviously, many of you missed my PRR N4 cabin car clinic at Prototype Rails, Cocoa Beach. I spent about the 1st 1/3 of the hour addressing the "bobber problem". This is well spelled out, with respect to the "caboose laws" that were promulgated in the PRRT&HS' new cabin car book (or should I say, cabin car BIBLE!) The short of it is that many railroads including the PRR were building new bobbers into the first decade of the 20th century. Around 1910, the first "caboose law" was proposed in New York State, which, among other features, required 4 wheel trucks. These laws were typically formulated by the states in alliance with the "botherhoods" and the laws were defined as worker safety and comfort, thus allowing states to make rules governing inter-state commerce. Much negotiating then occurred as the PRR had built hundreds of new bobbers, with steel underframes, in class ND. Eventually, the states, botherhoods and railroads came to a consensus about the laws and they started to go into effect circa 1915. Often the laws differed somewhat from state to state but there were some general commonalities, such as steel underframes, 4 wheel trucks in mainline service, specific minimum bunk length etc... In general, the laws did not outright ban bobbers, but they were typically confined to local and yard service. 

On the PRR, the ND cabin car served into at least the late 1950s and some may have even made into the 1960s. 

Interestingly, the PRR took different approaches to the cabin car issue on Lines East vs Lines West. On lines east, they focused on building new steel cabin cars, the N5. There were a few experiments, such as the 13 NDA cabins, where trucks were fitted to ND bobbers, and the singleton N4, where an ND was lengthened and give trucks. On Lines West, their bobbers were predominantly older wood underframe cars. Lines West jacked up the bodies, rolled steel underframes under them, and lengthened the bodies, generating over 1000 N6A and N6B class cabin cars, with the N6B remaining the single most numerous cabin car on the PRR in the 1956 cabin car census!

The PRR ND is available in resin in HO from F&C and on the secondary market in the for of wood and cast metal craftman kits from GoorCraft.

As noted previously, several calss ND bobbers were preserved and you can even ride in one on the Strasburg Railroad.

Regards,
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Eric Hansmann <eric@...>
Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2022 10:28 AM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io <main@realstmfc.groups.io>
Subject: [EXT] Re: [RealSTMFC] Bobber 4-wheel cabooses
 
CAUTION: Email Originated Outside of Auburn.

I don’t have a definitive answer. I model 1926 and will need a few of these 4-wheel cabooses for the industrial branch I plan to model.

Some states banned the use of 4-wheel cabooses in the Teens. I think many survived in yard, industrial, and short branch line service. The B&OCT certainly used them late, as did the Cumberland and Pennsylvania (not a class one). 

I suspect many were sold or scrapped in the 1930s as traffic slowed. Many lines already had larger 8-wheel cabooses by the 1930s, so older equipment would be deemed as excess.

Interestingly, the Western Maryland Railway didn’t add any 8-wheel cabooses until the mid-1930s, so their 4-wheel cabooses would have been used extensively to that point.

It boils down to the location, years, and service to determine longevity for these classic cars.


Eric Hansmann
Murfreesboro, TN

> On Jan 16, 2022, at 10:03 AM, Robert G P <bobgp5109@...> wrote:
>
> And how long did these typically last in service? Ive always wondered if any lasted into the late transition era on a class 1 carrier.
>
> Great topic!
>
> -Bob