Buyer Beware: InterMountain Milwaukee Road Rib-Side Box Car


cvsne <mjmcguirk@...>
 

Bill

This was an Intermountain project. We did some information/drawing
gathering when I was still working there. The plan was to cut the car
in N scale first and then release it in HO. Not sure if the N scale
car was ever released - or even started.

Marty


water.kresse@...
 

YES! Has Tom provided a general discussion of the C&O's freight business? If so foreward it to me.

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "lnbill" <bwelch@...>
I understand what you are saying Larry, but I guess I was thinking it
might require capital to do that.

I am admittedly still frustrated with the poor job IM did with their
woodsheathed reefer, so my thinking may be clouded about IM.

Bill Welch


Charlie Vlk
 

Larry-
The wording of the statement was not that the tooling could not be run..... it was that the person who
created the tooling had no "production outlet" for the product.
There have been a number of such situations that have arisen over the years. A couple of locomotive
projects, for example, have been "done on speculation" and then the factory shopped around for an
importer interested in importing the product.
As has been suggested, things of this nature don't always work out for the best.
My theory is that a company needs somebody who a champion for a project. The best products
have an air about them that reeks of somebody's interest and passion in the item.
You can have all the development and production resources in place, but without a spark the product will be
lacking and sometimes, have fatal flaws.
It is hard enough to bring together all the players in the development of a product; without personal interest in
it, it is doubly so.
Charlie Vlk


Charlie Vlk
 

Marty-
The N Scale car has not been released..... AFAIK it hasn't been hinted at..... and
the N Scale Milk Car, N Scale ATSF Stock Car, N Scale ATSF Modernized Waycar, and N Scale Cab Forward
would be in line before it if the projects are taken in order of announcement / public disclosure.
Charlie Vlk

----- Original Message -----
From: cvsne
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2008 1:19 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Buyer Beware: InterMountain Milwaukee Road Rib-Side Box Car


Bill

This was an Intermountain project. We did some information/drawing
gathering when I was still working there. The plan was to cut the car
in N scale first and then release it in HO. Not sure if the N scale
car was ever released - or even started.

Marty


Larry Jackman <Ljack70117@...>
 

Thank you
Larry Jackman
ljack70117@...
Boca Raton FL 33434
I was born with nothing and
I have most of it left.



On Apr 17, 2008, at 2:52 PM, Charlie Vlk wrote:

Larry-
The wording of the statement was not that the tooling could not be run..... it was that the person who
created the tooling had no "production outlet" for the product.
And I told you how to get an outlet.
The rest of what you say has nothing to do with your statement.



There have been a number of such situations that have arisen over the years. A couple of locomotive
projects, for example, have been "done on speculation" and then the factory shopped around for an
importer interested in importing the product.
As has been suggested, things of this nature don't always work out for the best.
My theory is that a company needs somebody who a champion for a project. The best products
have an air about them that reeks of somebody's interest and passion in the item.
You can have all the development and production resources in place, but without a spark the product will be
lacking and sometimes, have fatal flaws.
It is hard enough to bring together all the players in the development of a product; without personal interest in
it, it is doubly so.
Charlie Vlk




------------------------------------

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Richard Hendrickson
 

On Apr 17, 2008, at 7:10 AM, Ed Hawkins wrote:

STMFC Discussion Group,
In case any STMFC members were considering buying any of the new
Milwaukee Road postwar rib-side box cars produced by InterMountain,
you
should be aware that the model is royally screwed up and unfixable.
The
sides have a couple of deficiencies, and the ends and roof are simply
awful. In addition to InterMountain's apparent inability to interpret
plans and photographs, they also didn't bother to understand the body
of these cars were all welded. They actually went to extra work to add
a row of rivets on the sides of the roof eaves where there should
be no
rivets present. I'm posting this message so that potential buyers are
made aware of major shortcomings with the model.












I've waited to comment on Ed's post until I saw the actual model, not
just photos of test shots. As it happens, the RTR model I ordered
arrived in today's mail, so I am now in a position to say with
confidence that Ed's observations are entirely correct (not that I
ever doubted them). This model is a $30+shipping unqualified
disaster. I will no longer order new IMC freight car models sight
unseen. The serious problems with this model, together with the
shortcomings previously noted in the GN plywood side box cars and
FGEX reefers, demonstrate that, at present, IMC cannot be counted on
to do anything right. After I've studied the MILW box car model more
closely, I may find that it can be salvaged (or I may not), but even
if it can be saved it will require a whole lot of work and some
careful paint matching. Disappointing doesn't even begin to cover it.

Richard Hendrickson


Tim O'Connor
 

Sounds like IRC mailed a picture of a car to China and said
"make it look like this"...

One can always hope they'll fix it. It was Mr. Hawkins who
saved us all from the infamous 41'6" Branchline box cars after
all, just because he decided to use an etched running board...

Tim O'Connor

Was this car actually cut/tooled by IM or are they using dies cut by
someone else? Seems like I have been hearing about some things like
this car, B&O Wagon, etc top that have been around for a couple of
years that were cut by someone with no production outlet/capacity.
Hope I am not starting another rumor, but only continuing one.
Bill Welch


destron@...
 

On the subject of ribside cars... I've had one good review of the cars
from Ribside Cars. Wondering if anyone could give their opinions of it?

Thanks.

Frank Valoczy
Vancouver, BC

Sounds like IRC mailed a picture of a car to China and said
"make it look like this"...

One can always hope they'll fix it. It was Mr. Hawkins who
saved us all from the infamous 41'6" Branchline box cars after
all, just because he decided to use an etched running board...

Tim O'Connor


Was this car actually cut/tooled by IM or are they using dies cut by
someone else? Seems like I have been hearing about some things like
this car, B&O Wagon, etc top that have been around for a couple of
years that were cut by someone with no production outlet/capacity.
Hope I am not starting another rumor, but only continuing one.
Bill Welch

------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links




!DSPAM:1291,4807f96a227561574688747!

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gn3397 <heninger@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., destron@... wrote:


On the subject of ribside cars... I've had one good review of the cars
from Ribside Cars. Wondering if anyone could give their opinions of it?

Thanks.

Frank Valoczy
Vancouver, BC
Frank,
I have a couple of the double door cars, and the main shortcoming seems to be the
underframe, which is lacking detail. The body casting and roof are very nice, and seem to
be accurate. The (thankfully) separately molded details are overly thick, but will be easily
replaced. Also, I believe most if not all of these cars were equipped with Barber S-2
trucks, available from Branchline. In short, they seem to be a good basic shell that can be
improved into very nice models. See Richard Hendrickson's articles in the 12/04 and 3/06
RMJ for more information.

Sincerely,
Robert D. Heninger
Stanley, ND


Greg Martin
 

Marty writes:

"Bill

This was an Intermountain project. We did some information/This was an
Intermountain project. We did some information/<WBR>drawing gathering when I was
still working there. The plan was to cut the car in N scale first and then
release it in HO. Not s

Marty"


Marty,

So if you are correct and IM cut the dies in house are you saying Chris
Clune's tooling still may have a chance?

Greg Martin









**************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car
listings at AOL Autos.
(http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851)


Ed Hawkins
 

On Apr 17, 2008, at 7:55 PM, Richard Hendrickson wrote:

've waited to comment on Ed's post until I saw the actual model, not
just photos of test shots. As it happens, the RTR model I ordered
arrived in today's mail, so I am now in a position to say with
confidence that Ed's observations are entirely correct (not that I
ever doubted them). This model is a $30+shipping unqualified
disaster.
Richard,
The scans I shared with you and Jerry Stewart earlier this week were
not just test shots, but parts from an undecorated production kit that
I had just received. I can only wish they would have been test shots
sent to me BEFORE the decision was made to go into production, so that
tooling modifications could have been made to eliminate the errors and
before production painted/lettered/assembled models were released to
dealers. This is an instant replay of the R-40-10 PFE reefer fiasco!
Maybe the next thing we'll see from IM is a new and improved version of
the Milwaukee Road box car model with the price hiked up and called a
"Premium Line" kit.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins


cvsne <mjmcguirk@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., tgregmrtn@... wrote:


Marty writes:

"Bill

This was an Intermountain project. We did some information/This
was an
Intermountain project. We did some information/<WBR>drawing
gathering when I was
still working there. The plan was to cut the car in N scale first
and then
release it in HO. Not s

Marty"


Marty,

So if you are correct and IM cut the dies in house are you saying
Chris
Clune's tooling still may have a chance?

Greg Martin

Greg,

First of all, I have not seen the InterMountain model, so I won't
comment except to say I'll leave it on the dealer's shelves based on
Ed's and Richard's comments.

While it's possible the IRC cars were from Clune's molds, I seriously
doubt it. So I'd say parts from those molds - if they were finished -
may eventually see the light of day, especially considering the
disappointing (and perplexing, as I know how detailed the prototype
information IRC had for the car was as I had a part in rounding it
up) but not particularly surprising end result of the IRC rib-side
boxcar.

Obviously, I'd heard about Chris' tooling (for the rib-side box and
a couple of other steam-era cars) but don't know what, if anything,
has actually happened with it - or if it was ever completed. I never
saw anything more than drawings. A few companies were interested in
acquiring Chris' molds, but at the time Intermountain wasn't one of
them. As I said, this is conjecture on my part as things may have
changed, as I've been out of the hobby industry loop for more than
three years (and loving it . . .) .

Marty







**************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S.
used car
listings at AOL Autos.
(http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Steve Lucas <stevelucas3@...>
 

Charlie--

I submit that the original IMWX/ Intermountain 40' 10' i.h. steel
boxcar in O and HO (and S scale as well???) is proof of your assertion.

Steve Lucas.

--- In STMFC@..., "Charlie Vlk" <cvlk@...> wrote:
.
My theory is that a company needs somebody who a champion for a
project. The best products
have an air about them that reeks of somebody's interest and passion
in the item.
You can have all the development and production resources in place,
but without a spark the product will be
lacking and sometimes, have fatal flaws.
It is hard enough to bring together all the players in the
development of a product; without personal interest in
it, it is doubly so.
Charlie Vlk


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Carl J. Marsico <Carlmarsico@...>
 

It's my understanding that the IMWX molds went to Red Caboose, not IMRC.

CJM

Steve Lucas <stevelucas3@...> wrote:
Charlie--

I submit that the original IMWX/ Intermountain 40' 10' i.h. steel
boxcar in O and HO (and S scale as well???) is proof of your assertion.

Steve Lucas.

--- In STMFC@..., "Charlie Vlk" <cvlk@...> wrote:
.
My theory is that a company needs somebody who a champion for a
project. The best products
have an air about them that reeks of somebody's interest and passion
in the item.
You can have all the development and production resources in place,
but without a spark the product will be
lacking and sometimes, have fatal flaws.
It is hard enough to bring together all the players in the
development of a product; without personal interest in
it, it is doubly so.
Charlie Vlk




Denny Anspach <danspach@...>
 

I have yet to see any of these cars personally, although I did inspect
an unpainted test shot at Cocoa Beach in January. That said, the cars
have become a conversation item in the Milwaukee modeling community
(no surprise!).

The initial consultant on the IM Milwaukee ribside project was Mike
Falletti from the tri-cities area of Washington State, although this
relationship did not continue (Mike simply stopped hearing from them).

Mike is one of the most picky, super-critical and meticulous
Milwaukee prototype modelers anywhere (his period of principal
interest- out of our scope), and by general consensus in the Milwaukee
modeling community over the years, Mike is considered to know what he
is talking about (I own one of his models, and i can attest to his
work!). He is also a military modeler, and almost always all of his
modeling is only from kits.

In this regard, I have been very interested in what his take would be.
Here is a quote from a recent posting:

The car is based on general arrangement drawings of series
23938-24937 (1946-7) and 24938-28559 (1948), provided by yours
truly. As far as the kit goes - I didn't pick up a dec to check
lettering - I think they did a dang good job. Photo etch roof walk,
and better than usual brake and wire running gear are particularly
deserving of praise. Same with the choice of two doors (on the kit).
Price for a one railroad car was entirely reasonable at $18.95,
IMHO. The only nit I'd pick is that
initially there was some discussion about making the ends were
separate to allow other versions to be bashed, this didn't make it
to the final product. The kit is a bit unusual for IM in that the
roof and car body are all one piece, with the floor separate.
Now, I have been hearing considerable strong comment from other
critical observers that the lettering of the decorated IM early
scheme is too large, and/or simply "does not look right". I asked Mike
about this, and this is what he said-

...I had a chance to see the prepainted ones today, I think the
comments are correct, the lettering doesn't look right (I didn't
have a way to measure it). Too bad, I sure would have helped out
with the lettering, if asked....
In response to this very issue, there is more than just a distinct
possibility, however, that as we speak, the owner of existing
absolutely dead-on lettering and graphics for these very cars may be
now looking into producing the proper decals- if he feels that the
demand would be sufficient.

Personally, I will be looking for kits.

Denny


Ed Hawkins
 

On Apr 18, 2008, at 10:20 AM, Carl J. Marsico wrote:

It's my understanding that the IMWX molds went to Red Caboose, not
IMRC.
Carl,
You are correct. InterMountain tooled the original IMWX 1937 AAR box
car model for Jerry Porter (Jerry was actually once part of IM), who
marketed the IMWX model on his own. Jerry owned the tooling, but the
tooling was set up at IM and they ran the plastic for him. After Jerry
ended his association with IM, he pulled his tooling out of IM and
later sold it to Red Caboose. There's a lot more to the story, but it's
not appropriate for me to discuss on the STMFC as it would be
considered off topic. In the meantime IM tooled their own version of
the 1937 AAR box car. The models are not identical. The IM version has
"flat ends" that accept separate end detail parts. The IMWX version had
the ends, sides, and floor as an integral body. There were other
differences as well that can be seen by simply comparing the models
side by side.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins


Tim O'Connor
 

Ed and all, I just got my car, the 1959 version...
==================================================

Ed Hawkins wrote
The right side of the car lacks a horizontal raised overlapping
seam that runs continuously just above the side sill.
Yeah, kinda goofy, but let's be fair: Red Caboose omitted a
number of important details on its PFE wood reefers, but I don't
hear a lot of griping about it... I had to look a couple of times
to see what you meant.

Also, unlike AAR box cars, the top of the Milwaukee Road end
was flat across the top and the roof was prefabricated by
welding and applied as a single unit. This resulted in a prominent
horizontal flange at the top of the end that is quite visible in
any photo showing the end. The top of the InterMountain end is
flush and lacks this flange.
Ed, my model has a horizontal thingy, seam or flange. On both ends.
It's exactly level with the car sides and appears to represent the
roof weld seam that you describe. It's not on the Ribside cars.

The formed double roof corrugations.... are too short near the
edge of the roof.
Yep, another funky IM roof. Not their first! And the row of rivets
on the roof is silly, I admit. But the Ribside roof is very noticeably
screwed up because it lacks seam caps! Ugh! From 18" away wearing my
reading glasses, I cannot see the rivets. That's the truth. :-(

And hey, check out those 9 rung ladders! Nice! And the Universal
brakewheel, it's a beauty! And they used wire for the brake rods.
And I think the side height above the doors looks better than the
Ribside cars and MUCH better than my old NJI brass cars.

Is it a museum quality model? Nope. Is it an imperfect but perfectly
serviceable model for a layout? Yes, I think so. If I didn't already
have several Ribside cars, I'd get more of these.

Tim O'Connor, former RPA, now just RTR.