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C&O Rebuilt Boxcars

Dave Wetterstroem
 

This is my first post to this group. I have been modeling off and on for the past 50 years. I model the C&O in 1952. Before last month, my feelings on boxcars were that they were either 40' or 50' with a single of double door. I couldn't tell the difference between an ARA, AAR or a PS-1. I have been working on my layout which is based on Quinnimont & Prince WV and the Piney Creek branch. I came to the realization that I would only have room on the layout for 75 non coal hauling cars and only half of those should be C&O. With this limitation, I decided that I needed to focus on having those cars be right or as close to being right as I can get. I grabbed my copy of the Jan 1953 ORER and made a spread sheet of all the cars series that the C&O had on their roster and how many of each car per series. I calculated those as percentages and then figuring a 100 car C&O roster (giving me a nice rotation of cars) I could have a guideline for what areas I would need to fill. 

My results showed that 85% of the C&O's non coal fleet were boxcars. From this point I started digging in to my research. While many of the cars are have been produced and are all ready in my collection, there is a few noticeable holes. The one that intrigues me most is the rebuilt Hocking Valley cars 12000-12168 & 13558-13828 Door and Half boxes. These cars have a very unique look with the 2nd door being on the right instead of the more typical left side of center and a bit of bracing showing below the side sheets. These cars also had siblings with single doors that later gained a bit of notoriety with a special LCL paint scheme. From talking with friends, they agreed, that there really isn't a great way to kitbash either of these cars. 

As I stated earlier, my knowledge of boxcars was limited, that was mostly because I had focused on hopper cars making the same kind of lists in the past. When I ran into a similar issue with the C&O 3 bay welded hopper, I designed and printed them out myself. I feel that this is the way that I need to proceed with these boxcars. So now is where I need some help. I have numerous photos of both series of cars, painting and lettering diagrams as well as the appropriate pages from the 1960 & 1969 freight car diagram books. This will give me a good start, but there are things like the roof that don't show up in the diagrams and the photos don't show. Most of these cars had "Murphy Radial Steel Flexible" roofs. At this point, my knowledge and research is hitting a bit of a wall. What did these roofs look like? Are their photos or plans available of these roofs? Has anyone made a car with an accurate style of roof that I could use as a guide?

Any other help on this project would be greatly apricated. 

Dave Wetterstroem

 

 
Scott H. Haycock
 

Hi Dave,

These look like rebuilt SS cars. SAL had a series of XM-1 cars, the B-5 series, I believe, that when rebuilt, showed the bottom of the side trusses in this fashion. Someone has/had that car in resin. Other than the sides though, nothing else on that car would match up. 

I think these cars would make a great  scratchbuilding project! If you can locate information on the pre-rebuilt cars, you may quite possibly have enough information to get the rest of the parts from various resin retailers- ends, roof, underframe, etc.

The attachment is a screenshot of a Jack Delano photo from the library of Congress. I believe it shows the roof you are looking for on the Alton Boxcar.

Good luck with this project and I for one would be interested in your progress.


Scott Haycock

On 10/04/2022 9:07 AM Dave Wetterstroem <framemakers@...> wrote:


This is my first post to this group. I have been modeling off and on for the past 50 years. I model the C&O in 1952. Before last month, my feelings on boxcars were that they were either 40' or 50' with a single of double door. I couldn't tell the difference between an ARA, AAR or a PS-1. I have been working on my layout which is based on Quinnimont & Prince WV and the Piney Creek branch. I came to the realization that I would only have room on the layout for 75 non coal hauling cars and only half of those should be C&O. With this limitation, I decided that I needed to focus on having those cars be right or as close to being right as I can get. I grabbed my copy of the Jan 1953 ORER and made a spread sheet of all the cars series that the C&O had on their roster and how many of each car per series. I calculated those as percentages and then figuring a 100 car C&O roster (giving me a nice rotation of cars) I could have a guideline for what areas I would need to fill. 

My results showed that 85% of the C&O's non coal fleet were boxcars. From this point I started digging in to my research. While many of the cars are have been produced and are all ready in my collection, there is a few noticeable holes. The one that intrigues me most is the rebuilt Hocking Valley cars 12000-12168 & 13558-13828 Door and Half boxes. These cars have a very unique look with the 2nd door being on the right instead of the more typical left side of center and a bit of bracing showing below the side sheets. These cars also had siblings with single doors that later gained a bit of notoriety with a special LCL paint scheme. From talking with friends, they agreed, that there really isn't a great way to kitbash either of these cars. 

As I stated earlier, my knowledge of boxcars was limited, that was mostly because I had focused on hopper cars making the same kind of lists in the past. When I ran into a similar issue with the C&O 3 bay welded hopper, I designed and printed them out myself. I feel that this is the way that I need to proceed with these boxcars. So now is where I need some help. I have numerous photos of both series of cars, painting and lettering diagrams as well as the appropriate pages from the 1960 & 1969 freight car diagram books. This will give me a good start, but there are things like the roof that don't show up in the diagrams and the photos don't show. Most of these cars had "Murphy Radial Steel Flexible" roofs. At this point, my knowledge and research is hitting a bit of a wall. What did these roofs look like? Are their photos or plans available of these roofs? Has anyone made a car with an accurate style of roof that I could use as a guide?

Any other help on this project would be greatly apricated. 

Dave Wetterstroem
Dave Wetterstroem
 

I'm not looking to kitbash or scratch build these. My goal is to design this for 3d printing. I've done a dozen or so projects including this ACF welded hopper. 
Robert kirkham
 

I’m interested in those roofs too, as the Alton kitbash inspired me back in the spring.  F&C offers a CPR mini-box with separate roof that might be converted to that.  It has the same roof panel count, and similar seam caps and mid-panel corrugated stiffener.   I feel the tapered ends of the seam caps (toward the sides) are a bit heavy and have an unwanted or oversized bolt/fastener, compared to the photo Scott shared, but i think that is a an easy enough modification.   Have not checked the F&C roof length yet.  If you have to buy the whole F&C kit, you’ll need to come up with another prototype to use the body on.  Haven’t figured that out yet. 
Rob  

On Oct 6, 2022, at 3:41 PM, Scott H. Haycock <shhaycock@...> wrote:

Hi Dave,

These look like rebuilt SS cars. SAL had a series of XM-1 cars, the B-5 series, I believe, that when rebuilt, showed the bottom of the side trusses in this fashion. Someone has/had that car in resin. Other than the sides though, nothing else on that car would match up. 

I think these cars would make a great  scratchbuilding project! If you can locate information on the pre-rebuilt cars, you may quite possibly have enough information to get the rest of the parts from various resin retailers- ends, roof, underframe, etc.

The attachment is a screenshot of a Jack Delano photo from the library of Congress. I believe it shows the roof you are looking for on the Alton Boxcar.

Good luck with this project and I for one would be interested in your progress.


Scott Haycock
On 10/04/2022 9:07 AM Dave Wetterstroem <framemakers@...> wrote:


This is my first post to this group. I have been modeling off and on for the past 50 years. I model the C&O in 1952. Before last month, my feelings on boxcars were that they were either 40' or 50' with a single of double door. I couldn't tell the difference between an ARA, AAR or a PS-1. I have been working on my layout which is based on Quinnimont & Prince WV and the Piney Creek branch. I came to the realization that I would only have room on the layout for 75 non coal hauling cars and only half of those should be C&O. With this limitation, I decided that I needed to focus on having those cars be right or as close to being right as I can get. I grabbed my copy of the Jan 1953 ORER and made a spread sheet of all the cars series that the C&O had on their roster and how many of each car per series. I calculated those as percentages and then figuring a 100 car C&O roster (giving me a nice rotation of cars) I could have a guideline for what areas I would need to fill. 

My results showed that 85% of the C&O's non coal fleet were boxcars. From this point I started digging in to my research. While many of the cars are have been produced and are all ready in my collection, there is a few noticeable holes. The one that intrigues me most is the rebuilt Hocking Valley cars 12000-12168 & 13558-13828 Door and Half boxes. These cars have a very unique look with the 2nd door being on the right instead of the more typical left side of center and a bit of bracing showing below the side sheets. These cars also had siblings with single doors that later gained a bit of notoriety with a special LCL paint scheme. From talking with friends, they agreed, that there really isn't a great way to kitbash either of these cars. 

As I stated earlier, my knowledge of boxcars was limited, that was mostly because I had focused on hopper cars making the same kind of lists in the past. When I ran into a similar issue with the C&O 3 bay welded hopper, I designed and printed them out myself. I feel that this is the way that I need to proceed with these boxcars. So now is where I need some help. I have numerous photos of both series of cars, painting and lettering diagrams as well as the appropriate pages from the 1960 & 1969 freight car diagram books. This will give me a good start, but there are things like the roof that don't show up in the diagrams and the photos don't show. Most of these cars had "Murphy Radial Steel Flexible" roofs. At this point, my knowledge and research is hitting a bit of a wall. What did these roofs look like? Are their photos or plans available of these roofs? Has anyone made a car with an accurate style of roof that I could use as a guide?

Any other help on this project would be greatly apricated. 

Dave Wetterstroem



<cohs-43893.jpg><cohs-24816.jpg>

<Screenshot from LOC #1a34816u.PNG>
Ken Roth
 

Hi Dave & Co.

I feel your pain.  I scratch-bashed a model of this car back in 2014.  I agree that is a wonderfully unusual car that seems to break all the rules.  I once told my friend it was the "rebellious teenager" showing its framing, wearing its doors backwards, etc. Sounds like you have all the available drawings and pictures, but I ran into the same problem.  No good roof shot!  My memory fails me as to the sources of all the pieces, but I can tell you that ends and doors are available that you can chop on.  I used a copy of a radial roof from some unknown resin kit. I built up a pattern for the sides from styrene with archer rivets, then made a silicone mold and cast the sides.  Tonight I went to look for the mold and was saddened to find that it had not be stored properly and is now unusable.  Haven't found the pattern yet, but its around somewhere. I think the roof probably had the small ribs between the main ribs that Scott Haycock is talking about.  I know mine is missing some details.  As I remember, decals were a problem too.  I think I patched together the lettering from some old F&C decals and who knows what else.  Attached are photos of my model.  Its not going to be a slam-dunk, but I'm glad I built one.  Best of luck!

Ken Roth
Robert kirkham
 

 Correction: I was just looking at a Funaro CPR 1932 AAR kit, not the minibox.    From what i can tell, rightly or wrongly, both seem to have very similar radial roofs.   

The CPR prototype specs call it a Murphy radial roof for both series of cars (Std R E Co drawing 6699H (1929) & 7423B (1932)); not sure why F&C calls the 1932 roof a Hutchins, except that i suspect the companies were forced together at some point.  Would like to find more on the corporate history of both companies . . .

Rob

On Oct 6, 2022, at 7:23 PM, Robert kirkham <rdkirkham@...> wrote:

I’m interested in those roofs too, as the Alton kitbash inspired me back in the spring.  F&C offers a CPR mini-box with separate roof that might be converted to that.  It has the same roof panel count, and similar seam caps and mid-panel corrugated stiffener.   I feel the tapered ends of the seam caps (toward the sides) are a bit heavy and have an unwanted or oversized bolt/fastener, compared to the photo Scott shared, but i think that is a an easy enough modification.   Have not checked the F&C roof length yet.  If you have to buy the whole F&C kit, you’ll need to come up with another prototype to use the body on.  Haven’t figured that out yet. 
Rob  

On Oct 6, 2022, at 3:41 PM, Scott H. Haycock <shhaycock@...> wrote:

Hi Dave,

These look like rebuilt SS cars. SAL had a series of XM-1 cars, the B-5 series, I believe, that when rebuilt, showed the bottom of the side trusses in this fashion. Someone has/had that car in resin. Other than the sides though, nothing else on that car would match up. 

I think these cars would make a great  scratchbuilding project! If you can locate information on the pre-rebuilt cars, you may quite possibly have enough information to get the rest of the parts from various resin retailers- ends, roof, underframe, etc.

The attachment is a screenshot of a Jack Delano photo from the library of Congress. I believe it shows the roof you are looking for on the Alton Boxcar.

Good luck with this project and I for one would be interested in your progress.


Scott Haycock
On 10/04/2022 9:07 AM Dave Wetterstroem <framemakers@...> wrote:


This is my first post to this group. I have been modeling off and on for the past 50 years. I model the C&O in 1952. Before last month, my feelings on boxcars were that they were either 40' or 50' with a single of double door. I couldn't tell the difference between an ARA, AAR or a PS-1. I have been working on my layout which is based on Quinnimont & Prince WV and the Piney Creek branch. I came to the realization that I would only have room on the layout for 75 non coal hauling cars and only half of those should be C&O. With this limitation, I decided that I needed to focus on having those cars be right or as close to being right as I can get. I grabbed my copy of the Jan 1953 ORER and made a spread sheet of all the cars series that the C&O had on their roster and how many of each car per series. I calculated those as percentages and then figuring a 100 car C&O roster (giving me a nice rotation of cars) I could have a guideline for what areas I would need to fill. 

My results showed that 85% of the C&O's non coal fleet were boxcars. From this point I started digging in to my research. While many of the cars are have been produced and are all ready in my collection, there is a few noticeable holes. The one that intrigues me most is the rebuilt Hocking Valley cars 12000-12168 & 13558-13828 Door and Half boxes. These cars have a very unique look with the 2nd door being on the right instead of the more typical left side of center and a bit of bracing showing below the side sheets. These cars also had siblings with single doors that later gained a bit of notoriety with a special LCL paint scheme. From talking with friends, they agreed, that there really isn't a great way to kitbash either of these cars. 

As I stated earlier, my knowledge of boxcars was limited, that was mostly because I had focused on hopper cars making the same kind of lists in the past. When I ran into a similar issue with the C&O 3 bay welded hopper, I designed and printed them out myself. I feel that this is the way that I need to proceed with these boxcars. So now is where I need some help. I have numerous photos of both series of cars, painting and lettering diagrams as well as the appropriate pages from the 1960 & 1969 freight car diagram books. This will give me a good start, but there are things like the roof that don't show up in the diagrams and the photos don't show. Most of these cars had "Murphy Radial Steel Flexible" roofs. At this point, my knowledge and research is hitting a bit of a wall. What did these roofs look like? Are their photos or plans available of these roofs? Has anyone made a car with an accurate style of roof that I could use as a guide?

Any other help on this project would be greatly apricated. 

Dave Wetterstroem



<cohs-43893.jpg><cohs-24816.jpg>

<Screenshot from LOC #1a34816u.PNG>
Charlie Duckworth
 

The radial roof you posted looks very similar to the one used in the Westerfield MP 1901 and 1951 SS boxcar kits. I’d post an image as reference but out of town at the moment. 
--
Charlie Duckworth 
Omaha, Ne.
Dave Wetterstroem
 

A friend sent me this image showing these cars in the Raceland car shops during the rebuilding of these cars. It shows the curved roofs and upon close inspection, you can see a single embossed stiffening ridge between the ribs. This should get close to being able to design a proper 3d printed roof for these cars. 
 
Tim O'Connor
 


I could swear we have discussed these cars in the past, but my memory ain't what it used to be. I think.

Now what were we talking about... ?

On 10/4/2022 11:07 AM, Dave Wetterstroem wrote:

This is my first post to this group. I have been modeling off and on for the past 50 years. I model the C&O in 1952. Before last month, my feelings on boxcars were that they were either 40' or 50' with a single of double door. I couldn't tell the difference between an ARA, AAR or a PS-1. I have been working on my layout which is based on Quinnimont & Prince WV and the Piney Creek branch. I came to the realization that I would only have room on the layout for 75 non coal hauling cars and only half of those should be C&O. With this limitation, I decided that I needed to focus on having those cars be right or as close to being right as I can get. I grabbed my copy of the Jan 1953 ORER and made a spread sheet of all the cars series that the C&O had on their roster and how many of each car per series. I calculated those as percentages and then figuring a 100 car C&O roster (giving me a nice rotation of cars) I could have a guideline for what areas I would need to fill. 

My results showed that 85% of the C&O's non coal fleet were boxcars. From this point I started digging in to my research. While many of the cars are have been produced and are all ready in my collection, there is a few noticeable holes. The one that intrigues me most is the rebuilt Hocking Valley cars 12000-12168 & 13558-13828 Door and Half boxes. These cars have a very unique look with the 2nd door being on the right instead of the more typical left side of center and a bit of bracing showing below the side sheets. These cars also had siblings with single doors that later gained a bit of notoriety with a special LCL paint scheme. From talking with friends, they agreed, that there really isn't a great way to kitbash either of these cars. 

As I stated earlier, my knowledge of boxcars was limited, that was mostly because I had focused on hopper cars making the same kind of lists in the past. When I ran into a similar issue with the C&O 3 bay welded hopper, I designed and printed them out myself. I feel that this is the way that I need to proceed with these boxcars. So now is where I need some help. I have numerous photos of both series of cars, painting and lettering diagrams as well as the appropriate pages from the 1960 & 1969 freight car diagram books. This will give me a good start, but there are things like the roof that don't show up in the diagrams and the photos don't show. Most of these cars had "Murphy Radial Steel Flexible" roofs. At this point, my knowledge and research is hitting a bit of a wall. What did these roofs look like? Are their photos or plans available of these roofs? Has anyone made a car with an accurate style of roof that I could use as a guide?

Any other help on this project would be greatly apricated. 

Dave Wetterstroem

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--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts
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