Topics

CB&Q boxcar colour - Delano images?


Robert kirkham
 

Hi there,

I'm looking for some WWII era colour images of CB&Q wood boxcars as a basis for painting and weathering a model.  I intend to go through the Farm Administration Library of Congress collection, but thought I'd ask if anyone has already done that?

Rob Kirkham   


Bill McClure
 

Rob,

I know nothing about those cars, but do know a little about photography. So I pass along that the color palette of WWII era Kodachrome, which was the slide film stock used back then, had a very warm tone, towards the red end of the spectrum. The images are beautiful, but if looking for color "accuracy", just be aware.

Then there is the "color" that your monitor "sees". Whole 'nother issue.

Bill


Robert kirkham
 

Fair enough.  But I like to start with a photo and go from there.  One of my challenges is that 1950’s paint isn’t a great reference for my 1946 model era.  And my other challenge is that I wasn’t born yet, and have no memories from that time - so need to start somewhere. 

I found one image so far this morning: https://www.loc.gov/resource/fsac.1a34690/.   There, in the middle distance, behind the concrete block building, is a CB&Q single sheathed car.  I find the comparison with what is shown on other cars in this yard view helpful modelling information.  

Rob

On Oct 22, 2020, at 11:40 AM, Bill McClure <virginianbill@...> wrote:

Rob,

I know nothing about those cars, but do know a little about photography. So I pass along that the color palette of WWII era Kodachrome, which was the slide film stock used back then, had a very warm tone, towards the red end of the spectrum. The images are beautiful, but if looking for color "accuracy", just be aware.

Then there is the "color" that your monitor "sees". Whole 'nother issue.

Bill



Nelson Moyer
 

Photos are good for weathering, chalk marks, etc. but not so good for color. There are two basic approaches to painting freight cars, paint for a new car paint job and weather according to age after painting and car usage, or paint to resemble faded oxidized paint and weather from there. Obviously the first approach requires more fading and weathering effort for an old paint heavily used look. I use the first approach, paint as new, and do the fading and weather later, or not for some cars.

 

As for freight car reds and browns, by far the most accurate paints are from Tru Color because they went to great effort to hire color consultants with access to prototype railroad color drift cards, and they matched their colors to the prototype as closely as possible. If you want the new paint look use Tru Color. If you want faded oxidized paint, it really doesn’t matter that color use as long as you’re in the right red or brown family.

 

Then there is the topcoat issue. Prototype freight cars aren’t dead flat when newly painted, despite the fact that model railroad tradition demands a flat finish, typically Dullcote. Lately, it’s not uncommon to see various degrees of paint shine from fairly glossy to satin and flat, again depending upon the car age since last painting. Tru Color dries glossy, which means you don’t have to spray a gloss coat before decaling – one less step than using a flat freight car color. I use semi-gloss, satin, and flat clear coats to provide another indication of age since painting.

 

Be aware that some acrylic clear coats cloud paint color, whereas lacquers typically don’t cloud the color. Future is an exception to the acrylic clouding issue.

 

Then there’s the issue of color temperature of layout lighting, which has been exhaustively discussed here, so look at the archives. Your freight car reds and browns will look quite different under warm lighting than under cool lighting. I use 5000 K lights with a high CRI index for true color rendition.

 

Color rendition of film has already been discussed. Time of day and sun angle were not mentioned, but they affect color, as does atmospheric haze, etc., etc.

 

So selecting paint colors by matching color photographs is a gross oversimplification, especially with color photographs from the 1940s and 1950s.

 

Nelson Moyer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Robert kirkham
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2020 2:06 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] CB&Q boxcar colour - Delano images?

 

Fair enough.  But I like to start with a photo and go from there.  One of my challenges is that 1950’s paint isn’t a great reference for my 1946 model era.  And my other challenge is that I wasn’t born yet, and have no memories from that time - so need to start somewhere. 

 

I found one image so far this morning: https://www.loc.gov/resource/fsac.1a34690/.   There, in the middle distance, behind the concrete block building, is a CB&Q single sheathed car.  I find the comparison with what is shown on other cars in this yard view helpful modelling information.  

 

Rob

On Oct 22, 2020, at 11:40 AM, Bill McClure <virginianbill@...> wrote:

 

Rob,

 

I know nothing about those cars, but do know a little about photography. So I pass along that the color palette of WWII era Kodachrome, which was the slide film stock used back then, had a very warm tone, towards the red end of the spectrum. The images are beautiful, but if looking for color "accuracy", just be aware.

 

Then there is the "color" that your monitor "sees". Whole 'nother issue.

 

Bill

 

 


Robert kirkham
 

Here’s another photo from the Library of Congress Farm/War Admin collections:


Rob


On Oct 22, 2020, at 12:06 PM, Robert kirkham <rdkirkham@...> wrote:

Fair enough.  But I like to start with a photo and go from there.  One of my challenges is that 1950’s paint isn’t a great reference for my 1946 model era.  And my other challenge is that I wasn’t born yet, and have no memories from that time - so need to start somewhere. 

I found one image so far this morning: https://www.loc.gov/resource/fsac.1a34690/.   There, in the middle distance, behind the concrete block building, is a CB&Q single sheathed car.  I find the comparison with what is shown on other cars in this yard view helpful modelling information.  

Rob
On Oct 22, 2020, at 11:40 AM, Bill McClure <virginianbill@...> wrote:

Rob,

I know nothing about those cars, but do know a little about photography. So I pass along that the color palette of WWII era Kodachrome, which was the slide film stock used back then, had a very warm tone, towards the red end of the spectrum. The images are beautiful, but if looking for color "accuracy", just be aware.

Then there is the "color" that your monitor "sees". Whole 'nother issue.

Bill




Robert kirkham
 

Good thing no one is suggesting oversimplification.

Rob

On Oct 22, 2020, at 1:03 PM, Nelson Moyer <npmoyer@...> wrote:

Photos are good for weathering, chalk marks, etc. but not so good for color. There are two basic approaches to painting freight cars, paint for a new car paint job and weather according to age after painting and car usage, or paint to resemble faded oxidized paint and weather from there. Obviously the first approach requires more fading and weathering effort for an old paint heavily used look. I use the first approach, paint as new, and do the fading and weather later, or not for some cars.

 

As for freight car reds and browns, by far the most accurate paints are from Tru Color because they went to great effort to hire color consultants with access to prototype railroad color drift cards, and they matched their colors to the prototype as closely as possible. If you want the new paint look use Tru Color. If you want faded oxidized paint, it really doesn’t matter that color use as long as you’re in the right red or brown family.

 

Then there is the topcoat issue. Prototype freight cars aren’t dead flat when newly painted, despite the fact that model railroad tradition demands a flat finish, typically Dullcote. Lately, it’s not uncommon to see various degrees of paint shine from fairly glossy to satin and flat, again depending upon the car age since last painting. Tru Color dries glossy, which means you don’t have to spray a gloss coat before decaling – one less step than using a flat freight car color. I use semi-gloss, satin, and flat clear coats to provide another indication of age since painting.

 

Be aware that some acrylic clear coats cloud paint color, whereas lacquers typically don’t cloud the color. Future is an exception to the acrylic clouding issue.

 

Then there’s the issue of color temperature of layout lighting, which has been exhaustively discussed here, so look at the archives. Your freight car reds and browns will look quite different under warm lighting than under cool lighting. I use 5000 K lights with a high CRI index for true color rendition.

 

Color rendition of film has already been discussed. Time of day and sun angle were not mentioned, but they affect color, as does atmospheric haze, etc., etc.

 

So selecting paint colors by matching color photographs is a gross oversimplification, especially with color photographs from the 1940s and 1950s.

 

Nelson Moyer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Robert kirkham
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2020 2:06 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] CB&Q boxcar colour - Delano images?

 

Fair enough.  But I like to start with a photo and go from there.  One of my challenges is that 1950’s paint isn’t a great reference for my 1946 model era.  And my other challenge is that I wasn’t born yet, and have no memories from that time - so need to start somewhere. 

 

I found one image so far this morning: https://www.loc.gov/resource/fsac.1a34690/.   There, in the middle distance, behind the concrete block building, is a CB&Q single sheathed car.  I find the comparison with what is shown on other cars in this yard view helpful modelling information.  

 

Rob

On Oct 22, 2020, at 11:40 AM, Bill McClure <virginianbill@...> wrote:

 

Rob,

 

I know nothing about those cars, but do know a little about photography. So I pass along that the color palette of WWII era Kodachrome, which was the slide film stock used back then, had a very warm tone, towards the red end of the spectrum. The images are beautiful, but if looking for color "accuracy", just be aware.

 

Then there is the "color" that your monitor "sees". Whole 'nother issue.

 

Bill

 

 




Tony Thompson
 

Nelson Moyer wrote:

Then there is the topcoat issue. Prototype freight cars aren’t dead flat when newly painted, despite the fact that model railroad tradition demands a flat finish, typically Dullcote. Lately, it’s not uncommon to see various degrees of paint shine from fairly glossy to satin and flat, again depending upon the car age since last painting. 

   It's quite true that freshly painted prototype freight cars were glossy. But within a month on the road, that shine had become dull, as numerous photos of very recently built but not new cars will document. Accordingly, I would hesitate to suggest any gloss on a model freight car -- unless you model a paint shop.
      There is also the factor that reflections "don't scale." By that I mean that the light reflections look far too big on models. It's most noticeable on model automobiles, which really do not look right with shiny paint, even though the prototypes, when washed, do look that way. My own view is that shiny paint is very rarely looks "right" on an HO scale model. Of anything.

Tony Thompson




Nelson Moyer
 

Understood, but I later said I used semi-gloss and satin, not gloss.

 

Nelson Moyer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Tony Thompson
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2020 4:15 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] CB&Q boxcar colour - Delano images?

 

Nelson Moyer wrote:

Then there is the topcoat issue. Prototype freight cars aren’t dead flat when newly painted, despite the fact that model railroad tradition demands a flat finish, typically Dullcote. Lately, it’s not uncommon to see various degrees of paint shine from fairly glossy to satin and flat, again depending upon the car age since last painting. 

   It's quite true that freshly painted prototype freight cars were glossy. But within a month on the road, that shine had become dull, as numerous photos of very recently built but not new cars will document. Accordingly, I would hesitate to suggest any gloss on a model freight car -- unless you model a paint shop.

      There is also the factor that reflections "don't scale." By that I mean that the light reflections look far too big on models. It's most noticeable on model automobiles, which really do not look right with shiny paint, even though the prototypes, when washed, do look that way. My own view is that shiny paint is very rarely looks "right" on an HO scale model. Of anything.

 

Tony Thompson