Date
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CNJ/CRP 1905 style hopper cars
Don Burn
There is a builders photo of 62000 in Coal Cars by Martin Robert Karig. The book used the name "1905 Common Design" since a lot of manufacturers built them and a lot of railroad bought them.
Don Burn
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Don Burn
-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of anthony wagner via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2023 3:33 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] CNJ/CRP 1905 style hopper cars
Does anyone have photos of the CNJ or CRP hopper cars in the 61000-61999 or 62000-62999 series that they will share? I model 1949 and in my 1-1-50 ORER between the two series and the two roads there were still 1032 of these cars in service. Thanks Tony Wagner
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of anthony wagner via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2023 3:33 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] CNJ/CRP 1905 style hopper cars
Does anyone have photos of the CNJ or CRP hopper cars in the 61000-61999 or 62000-62999 series that they will share? I model 1949 and in my 1-1-50 ORER between the two series and the two roads there were still 1032 of these cars in service. Thanks Tony Wagner
David
CNJ 62000-62999 were also the subject of an article in the August 1913 Railway Age Gazette, Mechanical Edition, p.439.
https://ia804508.us.archive.org/4/items/sim_railway-locomotives-and-cars_1913-08_87_8/sim_railway-locomotives-and-cars_1913-08_87_8.pdf
David Thompson
https://ia804508.us.archive.org/4/items/sim_railway-locomotives-and-cars_1913-08_87_8/sim_railway-locomotives-and-cars_1913-08_87_8.pdf
David Thompson
anthony wagner
Thank you, David. As I suspected these cars appear to be very close copies of the Pennsy GLa. At least it won't be much work to simply repaint one and decal it with the Post-war scheme and apply Kadee Andrews trucks. Per my ORER 553 were assigned to CNJ and 423 to CRP on 1-1-50. so the group was still mostly intact at that time.
Thanks again, Tony
On Tuesday, January 17, 2023 at 06:32:09 PM CST, David via groups.io <jaydeet2001@...> wrote:
CNJ 62000-62999 were also the subject of an article in the August 1913
Railway Age Gazette, Mechanical Edition, p.439.
David Thompson
nyc3001 .
David, if that's the case, I suspect the hopper is of a Common Standard design.
The NYC and B&O (as you mentioned) had huge numbers of the Common Standard hoppers.
I imagine Ben Hom knows more about this subject as he's made a presentation about the NYC cars. iirc he told me a Varney hopper was the closest model for a long time.
-Phil Lee
The NYC and B&O (as you mentioned) had huge numbers of the Common Standard hoppers.
I imagine Ben Hom knows more about this subject as he's made a presentation about the NYC cars. iirc he told me a Varney hopper was the closest model for a long time.
-Phil Lee
Eric Hansmann
I don't have my copy of Bob Karig's Coal Cars book at hand, but I recall a couple differences between the GLa cars and what Bob termed as the 1905 Common Design.
First, the angle of the center slope sheets between the hoppers were different. The GLa cars had a gentler slope. The rivet pattern on the car side is the spotting feature.
Second, the GLa cars were ten-feet height from the rail to the top of the car side. This was slightly shorter than many of the Common Design cars.
Third, the GLa end posts were different. I upgraded a few HO scale Bowser GLa hoppers a few years ago to follow non-PRR prototypes. Photos and details were shared in this blog post. You can see the end post changes and compare with a stock model in that post.
Fourth, the Pennsy used a different brake lever pivot support design than most of the Common Design cars. Photos in that blog post illustrate the differences and what I modeled. Of course, these support designs changed over time and on different railroads. I tried to follow practices for my late 1926 modeling moment.
I did not alter the rivet pattern for the center slope sheets or increase the car side height on the Bowser models.
Eric Hansmann
Media, PA
Media, PA
On 01/18/2023 12:02 AM EST nyc3001 . <nyc3001@...> wrote:David, if that's the case, I suspect the hopper is of a Common Standard design.
The NYC and B&O (as you mentioned) had huge numbers of the Common Standard hoppers.
I imagine Ben Hom knows more about this subject as he's made a presentation about the NYC cars. iirc he told me a Varney hopper was the closest model for a long time.
-Phil Lee
anthony wagner
I have built 3 F&C N-12s and while they are of the same general design, they are slightly larger than the GLas, closer in size to the USRA cars. In looking at the dimensions in the ORER I think using a GLa is a satisfactory starting point. I also note that the trucks on the Bowser car are Pennsy's 2DF8s while the CNJ car had ASF Andrews so using Kadee's Andrews trucks is required. This is not intended to be a highly detailed model, just a 'good enough' stand in, but closer in appearance.to the prototype. Vertical handrails will be added to the right-hand end corner posts since they are almost non-existent on the Bowser casting. Tony Wagner
On Tuesday, January 17, 2023 at 07:54:15 PM CST, David via groups.io <jaydeet2001@...> wrote:
Hmmm, a Gla is "more similar" than, say, the old Athearn outside-post
twin hopper, but the best starting point for these CNJ cars is the F&C
kit for the B&O N-12 (#8340).
David Thompson
anthony wagner
Eric, Thanks for your response and links to your excellent blog on modifying these hoppers. For this project my intent was to simply create a 'good enough' model using the Bowser car as a starting point. Now that I have seen your blog, I realize that I will have to do a little more work than I intended. Thanks a lot LOL! Tony Wagner
On Wednesday, January 18, 2023 at 06:41:51 AM CST, Eric Hansmann <eric@...> wrote:
I don't have my copy of Bob Karig's Coal Cars book at hand, but I recall a couple differences between the GLa cars and what Bob termed as the 1905 Common Design.
First, the angle of the center slope sheets between the hoppers were different. The GLa cars had a gentler slope. The rivet pattern on the car side is the spotting feature.
Second, the GLa cars were ten-feet height from the rail to the top of the car side. This was slightly shorter than many of the Common Design cars.
Third, the GLa end posts were different. I upgraded a few HO scale Bowser GLa hoppers a few years ago to follow non-PRR prototypes. Photos and details were shared in this blog post. You can see the end post changes and compare with a stock model in that post.
Fourth, the Pennsy used a different brake lever pivot support design than most of the Common Design cars. Photos in that blog post illustrate the differences and what I modeled. Of course, these support designs changed over time and on different railroads. I tried to follow practices for my late 1926 modeling moment.
I did not alter the rivet pattern for the center slope sheets or increase the car side height on the Bowser models.
Eric Hansmann
Media, PA
Media, PA
On 01/18/2023 12:02 AM EST nyc3001 . <nyc3001@...> wrote:David, if that's the case, I suspect the hopper is of a Common Standard design.
The NYC and B&O (as you mentioned) had huge numbers of the Common Standard hoppers.
I imagine Ben Hom knows more about this subject as he's made a presentation about the NYC cars. iirc he told me a Varney hopper was the closest model for a long time.
-Phil Lee
Eric Hansmann
Tony,
I enjoy sharing my modeling adventures and misadventures. The upgrade work on these Bowser models isn't difficult. Sharp blades, slow cutting, and advance planning are key. I tend to work on a few cars at a time. I get into a groove removing the cast on details and become better with each car. Note that I only remove the free-standing ladder grab irons.
There were three hopper upgrade blog posts in 2021. The first one covered KD brake installation.
The second post reviewed detail removal and additions.
http://designbuildop.hansmanns.org/2021/04/16/coal-hopper-details/
http://designbuildop.hansmanns.org/2021/04/16/coal-hopper-details/
The final post covered fussy bits.
While I focus on 1926 appearances, many of the details and techniques can be applied for modeling later or earlier eras.
It can be easy to break the corner posts when removing detail or drilling grab iron holes. Styrene 4x4 can be used as a replacement. I don't worry much if I accidentally slice away a bolt head or two. I don't think these missing elements can be seen easily on the completed and weathered models. You could add one from a donor car. When upgrading several hoppers, I focused on the overall appearance of the batch. A missing bolt head or two can't be easily found.
Eric Hansmann
Media, PA
Media, PA
On 01/18/2023 8:28 AM EST anthony wagner <anycw1@...> wrote:Eric, Thanks for your response and links to your excellent blog on modifying these hoppers. For this project my intent was to simply create a 'good enough' model using the Bowser car as a starting point. Now that I have seen your blog, I realize that I will have to do a little more work than I intended. Thanks a lot LOL! Tony Wagner
anthony wagner
Excellent! I note that between 1909 and 1912 safety appliances were added. The diagrams of these cars circa 1940 show that on the right-hand end of the side the grab iron attachment had been changed and I assume that a second grab iron was added. Of the 2000 original cars in the two series almost half were gone by the time I model, 1949. I don't know how much longer they were in service but by then they were getting pretty elderly LOL.
Thanks for this. Tony Wagner
On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 08:57:29 AM CST, Keith Retterer <rettererk56@...> wrote:
Hey Tony,
Attached are the builder's photos of your CNJ hoppers as photographed at the Standard Steel Car Company, Butler Works.
Keith R.
Attached are the builder's photos of your CNJ hoppers as photographed at the Standard Steel Car Company, Butler Works.
Keith R.
Interesting discussion but hard to believe no in-service pictures of these cars have surfaced. It is a significant car for transition-era Anthracite modelers and I model 1955.
Is the consensus that these were Common Standard designs? Or close?
Anyone offer a HO model of a Common Standard hopper car or is Steve Funaro's B&O N-12 car the closest?
Did NYC System retain any of these cars after WWII?
Other roads?
Thank you,
Owen
--
T. Owen Thorne
Cecil County MD USA
owen at udel dot edu
Is the consensus that these were Common Standard designs? Or close?
Anyone offer a HO model of a Common Standard hopper car or is Steve Funaro's B&O N-12 car the closest?
Did NYC System retain any of these cars after WWII?
Other roads?
Thank you,
Owen
--
T. Owen Thorne
Cecil County MD USA
owen at udel dot edu
anthony wagner
The 63000-63999 series were built in 1916 and were slightly different with 9 panel sides instead of 8. F&C makesa kit of these cars. Tony Wagner
On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 12:48:13 PM CST, Edward <edb8381@...> wrote:
Would these two CNJ hoppers be what is being discussed here?
Ed Bommer
Ed Bommer
