Topics

Cool DD SAL 40' AAR box car

Andy Carlson
 

Good Morning everyone-

Seaboard Air Lines 40' AAR box car, SAL 23307.

I forgot where I stole this picture from (It is a screen shot) but it is cool. Built in 1948, it would probably have a rectangular panel roof. With the 4/4 Dartnaught ends and what appears to me to be 13' door opening (one each 7' and 6' 5/6/6 IYSD) this is a unique 10'6" box car.  Kato A3 ride control trucks and a side sill addition to a Branchline 6' single door AAR kit with a Red Caboose Murphy roof. Could be a cool weekend model project.

-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA

Inline image

Tim O'Connor
 

Andy

There were 500 cars built in 1948. The ends look like ACF proprietary ends.
If so, I wonder if the roofs also used the ACF proprietary design.




On 9/23/2019 2:03 PM, Andy Carlson wrote:
Good Morning everyone-

Seaboard Air Lines 40' AAR box car, SAL 23307.

I forgot where I stole this picture from (It is a screen shot) but it is cool. Built in 1948, it would probably have a rectangular panel roof. With the 4/4 Dartnaught ends and what appears to me to be 13' door opening (one each 7' and 6' 5/6/6 IYSD) this is a unique 10'6" box car.  Kato A3 ride control trucks and a side sill addition to a Branchline 6' single door AAR kit with a Red Caboose Murphy roof. Could be a cool weekend model project.

-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA



Attachments:



--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

O Fenton Wells
 

Chad Boas makes the ends, doors and the sill supports for this car.  


On Mon, Sep 23, 2019 at 2:05 PM Andy Carlson <midcentury@...> wrote:
Good Morning everyone-

Seaboard Air Lines 40' AAR box car, SAL 23307.

I forgot where I stole this picture from (It is a screen shot) but it is cool. Built in 1948, it would probably have a rectangular panel roof. With the 4/4 Dartnaught ends and what appears to me to be 13' door opening (one each 7' and 6' 5/6/6 IYSD) this is a unique 10'6" box car.  Kato A3 ride control trucks and a side sill addition to a Branchline 6' single door AAR kit with a Red Caboose Murphy roof. Could be a cool weekend model project.

-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA

Inline image



--
Fenton Wells
250 Frye Rd
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-8106
srrfan1401@...

David
 

There were 500 cars built in 1948. The ends look like ACF proprietary ends.
If so, I wonder if the roofs also used the ACF proprietary design.
SAL 23000-23499 were built at Mount Vernon in 6/48, so probably not.

David Thompson

Allan Smith
 

SAL 23000-23499 had Murphy raised panel roofs without raised panels under the running board laterals.

Al Smith
Sonora CA

On Tuesday, September 24, 2019, 02:20:35 PM PDT, David via Groups.Io <jaydeet2001@...> wrote:


> There were 500 cars built in 1948. The ends look like ACF proprietary
> ends.
> If so, I wonder if the roofs also used the ACF proprietary design.

SAL 23000-23499 were built at Mount Vernon in 6/48, so probably not.

David Thompson




Tim O'Connor
 

David

Yes, I see my notes show them with rectangular panel roofs

the question is, who made the ends? did MV produce ends like that?

On 9/24/2019 5:20 PM, David via Groups.Io wrote:
There were 500 cars built in 1948. The ends look like ACF proprietary ends.
If so, I wonder if the roofs also used the ACF proprietary design.
SAL 23000-23499 were built at Mount Vernon in 6/48, so probably not.

David Thompson
--
*Tim O'Connor*
*Sterling, Massachusetts*

Ed Hawkins
 



On Sep 25, 2019, at 10:51 AM, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:

Yes, I see my notes show them with rectangular panel roofs

the question is, who made the ends? did MV produce ends like that?


Tim,
The Seaboard diagram for 23000-23499 denotes the ends as..…4” deep corrugations; 5/16” top & 1/4” bottom sections; Mt. Vernon Drwg. No. 508-D-18895.

Thus, it’s apparent these ends were designed by the builder Mount Vernon Car Manufacturing Co. It’s doubtful that MVC produced dies for manufacturing them. More likely the ends were a specialty manufactured & supplied by Standard Railway Equipment Manufacturing Co. along with the Murphy roofs. 

I’m unaware of any other house cars using ends of this unique 4-4 MVC Carbuilder design, which lack the intermediate minor corrugations that were pressed into the common 4-4 Improved Dreadnaught Ends used on thousands of box & auto cars built from 1945 to 1948 and extending into the 1950s for some railroads. 

There’s always reasoning behind making decisions that would seemingly require spending money for new dies to producing these ends. In this case it doesn’t make a lot of sense to me why one series of 500 cars would use ends of this MVC Carbuilder design when the normal 4-4 Improved Dreadnaught Ends were commonly used in 1948. This was a transitional time when SREM began producing what we typically refer to as the “r+3-4” version Improved Dreadnaught End with the top corrugation being a 3” deep pressed rectangular shape & the lower 7 corrugations & intermediate minor corrugations same as before.

Regards,
Ed Hawkins

O Fenton Wells
 

Gentlemen, Chad Boas makes the ends, doors and side sill supports for this car.  Just use an IM 10'-6" IH car and his parts do the rest.
Fenton Wells 

On Wed, Sep 25, 2019 at 11:51 AM Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:
David

Yes, I see my notes show them with rectangular panel roofs

the question is, who made the ends? did MV produce ends like that?



On 9/24/2019 5:20 PM, David via Groups.Io wrote:
>> There were 500 cars built in 1948. The ends look like ACF proprietary
>> ends.
>> If so, I wonder if the roofs also used the ACF proprietary design.
>
> SAL 23000-23499 were built at Mount Vernon in 6/48, so probably not.
>
> David Thompson


--
*Tim O'Connor*
*Sterling, Massachusetts*





--
Fenton Wells
250 Frye Rd
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-8106
srrfan1401@...

Bill Kelly
 


Ed,
What does the Seaboard diagram say about the roof on the 23000-23499 series?
Thanks,
Bill Kelly
 
On Wed, 25 Sep 2019 12:06:22 -0500 "Ed Hawkins" <hawk0621@...> writes:


 

On Sep 25, 2019, at 10:51 AM, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:

Yes, I see my notes show them with rectangular panel roofs

the question is, who made the ends? did MV produce ends like that?


Tim,
The Seaboard diagram for 23000-23499 denotes the ends as..…4” deep corrugations; 5/16” top & 1/4” bottom sections; Mt. Vernon Drwg. No. 508-D-18895.

Thus, it’s apparent these ends were designed by the builder Mount Vernon Car Manufacturing Co. It’s doubtful that MVC produced dies for manufacturing them. More likely the ends were a specialty manufactured & supplied by Standard Railway Equipment Manufacturing Co. along with the Murphy roofs. 

I’m unaware of any other house cars using ends of this unique 4-4 MVC Carbuilder design, which lack the intermediate minor corrugations that were pressed into the common 4-4 Improved Dreadnaught Ends used on thousands of box & auto cars built from 1945 to 1948 and extending into the 1950s for some railroads. 

There’s always reasoning behind making decisions that would seemingly require spending money for new dies to producing these ends. In this case it doesn’t make a lot of sense to me why one series of 500 cars would use ends of this MVC Carbuilder design when the normal 4-4 Improved Dreadnaught Ends were commonly used in 1948. This was a transitional time when SREM began producing what we typically refer to as the “r+3-4” version Improved Dreadnaught End with the top corrugation being a 3” deep pressed rectangular shape & the lower 7 corrugations & intermediate minor corrugations same as before.

Regards,
Ed Hawkins
_._,_._,_
 


Ed Hawkins
 



On Sep 25, 2019, at 1:08 PM, Bill Kelly <wbkelly@...> wrote:

What does the Seaboard diagram say about the roof on the 23000-23499 series?

Bill,
From the diagram….No. 14 ga. C.B. galv. steel sheets & No. 11 ga. galv. saddles; SREM Co.

Several good photos clearly illustrate the roofs were of the Murphy rectangular raised-panel type. 

Seaboard diagrams of later box cars having diagonal panel roofs are so-stated. 
Regards,
Ed Hawkins

Dennis Storzek
 

On Wed, Sep 25, 2019 at 10:06 AM, Ed Hawkins wrote:
There’s always reasoning behind making decisions that would seemingly require spending money for new dies to producing these ends. In this case it doesn’t make a lot of sense to me why one series of 500 cars would use ends of this MVC Carbuilder design when the normal 4-4 Improved Dreadnaught Ends were commonly used in 1948.
The normal reason for doing this sort of thing is patent avoidance. I haven't looked for patents on the improved Dreadnaught end, but recall from the last time we extensively discussed Dreadnaught ends that they made their appearance just before the Murphy corrugated end was about to become public domain, and the timing of the appearance of the "improved" version suggests a similar scenario. All the various carbuilder ends seem to lack the "darts" of the Dreadnaught design, so it would seem the darts were the patented feature. This would also seem to suggest that these ends were NOT jobbed out to S.R.E.Co. but stranger things have happened.

Why develop the die for just one order of 500 cars? I would suppose they intended to produce a lot more, with the intent of making their cars cheaper by at least the value of the S.R.E.Co. royalty, but it likely didn't work out that way. S.R.E.Co. may have dropped their prices, or the economies of scale just couldn't be beat. Pullman Standard seemed to do well enough with their end.

Dennis Storzek

David
 

I???m unaware of any other house cars using ends of this unique 4-4 MVC Carbuilder design...
Dunno if refrigerators count as house cars; but the ends on Armour 1-2000 seem to be of the same general design (in a R2/4 configuration), including the little squarish nubs at the corners between the ribs.

David Thompson

Tim O'Connor
 


Definitely ACF carbuilder ends.




On 9/25/2019 5:27 PM, David via Groups.Io wrote:
I???m unaware of any other house cars using ends of this unique 4-4 MVC Carbuilder design...
Dunno if refrigerators count as house cars; but the ends on Armour 1-2000 seem to be of the same general design (in a R2/4 configuration), including the little squarish nubs at the corners between the ribs.

David Thompson

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts