D&RG 4-6-0 #234


Clarence Zink
 

Hi -
I'm aware this might not be the place for this question, but this group is about the "steam era".

I got an old brass Rio Grande 4-6-0 steam locomotive, #234, at a club raffle the other night, and want to authenticate it's existence.  It was a donation to the club, but has a broken rear truck on the tender.  There are no manufacturer's identification marks on it that I can find from an  external investigation.

It doesn't come up in any of the D&RGW websites I've tried.

Can anyone suggest a website that would/might contain some info about this loco?

Thanks,

CRZ


William Reed
 

Can you post a picture? That would help a lot in identifying the prototype it may be based on. Thanks. 

William
aka drgwk37

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Clarence Zink <clarence.zink@...>
Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2022 12:49 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: [RealSTMFC] D&RG 4-6-0 #234
 
Hi -
I'm aware this might not be the place for this question, but this group is about the "steam era".

I got an old brass Rio Grande 4-6-0 steam locomotive, #234, at a club raffle the other night, and want to authenticate it's existence.  It was a donation to the club, but has a broken rear truck on the tender.  There are no manufacturer's identification marks on it that I can find from an  external investigation.

It doesn't come up in any of the D&RGW websites I've tried.

Can anyone suggest a website that would/might contain some info about this loco?

Thanks,

CRZ


Charlie Vlk
 

Even more helpful would be mention of scale and track gauge given it is lettered for Rio Grande.   A grab shot with a cell phone would take less than a minute and might get an answer without a flurry of guess posts.  A 4-6-0 is an odd freight car on top of this!
Charlie Vlk


On Nov 10, 2022, at 11:53 AM, William Reed <bigbiggarage@...> wrote:


Can you post a picture? That would help a lot in identifying the prototype it may be based on. Thanks. 

William
aka drgwk37

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Clarence Zink <clarence.zink@...>
Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2022 12:49 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: [RealSTMFC] D&RG 4-6-0 #234
 
Hi -
I'm aware this might not be the place for this question, but this group is about the "steam era".

I got an old brass Rio Grande 4-6-0 steam locomotive, #234, at a club raffle the other night, and want to authenticate it's existence.  It was a donation to the club, but has a broken rear truck on the tender.  There are no manufacturer's identification marks on it that I can find from an  external investigation.

It doesn't come up in any of the D&RGW websites I've tried.

Can anyone suggest a website that would/might contain some info about this loco?

Thanks,

CRZ


William Reed
 

Clarence, 

Does your model resemble either of these 4-6-0's? 773 is Standard Gauge and 169 is Narrow Gauge. The number on your model is not consistent with D&RGW numbering practices for that type of locomotive. 

William
aka drgwk37

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Clarence Zink <clarence.zink@...>
Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2022 12:49 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: [RealSTMFC] D&RG 4-6-0 #234
 
Hi -
I'm aware this might not be the place for this question, but this group is about the "steam era".

I got an old brass Rio Grande 4-6-0 steam locomotive, #234, at a club raffle the other night, and want to authenticate it's existence.  It was a donation to the club, but has a broken rear truck on the tender.  There are no manufacturer's identification marks on it that I can find from an  external investigation.

It doesn't come up in any of the D&RGW websites I've tried.

Can anyone suggest a website that would/might contain some info about this loco?

Thanks,

CRZ


Clarence Zink
 

Hi -

Here is what the locomotive is:
  • Standard gauge
  • HO Scale
  • Aftermarket decals, just Rio Grande and 234, no others.
  • Rear truck of the tender broken
  • Drive wheels spin freely, so something inside is not functioning properly
  • I am assuming it does not have a decoder, due to it's age and condition.
  • Cast in rivet heads in missing paint spots indicate possibly an old Mantua or MDC/Roundhouse diecast loco?
Photos:

For a $5.00 raffle ticket, it's OK.  I've never remotored nor detailed a loco of any sort, so it will be a good project.

Best,

Clarence


Douglas Harding
 

Certainly not brass, though it does have some brass parts, like ladders made from common ladder stock and brass drivers. It looks like an early MDC old timer, but MDC did not make a 4-6-0 old timer. Nor does it match a Mantua 4-6-0. There were other manufactures of similar steam engines back in the 50s. It looks to be made of cast metal, most likely zamac. As early as at is, be careful of zamac rot. Even the tender trucks were cast metal and easily broke. You can replace the trucks. The freewheeling indicates you have broken or missing gears. NWSL offers a variety of replacement gears. I don’t believe there is a prototype. It could be a kitbash of some sort, but I doubt it.

 

There should be room in the tender for a decoder. You will need to isolate the motor from the frame, or better install a can motor with gear box. The drivers will need the flanges turned down, or replace them.

 

But in the end you will still have a crude, generic steam engine in which you have invested a ton of money. You would be better to invest your funds in a better engine.

 

Doug Harding

https://www.facebook.com/douglas.harding.3156/

Youtube: Douglas Harding Iowa Central Railroad


 

Do you have a park on your layout? Seems a good place to retire this loco to. 

Thanks!
Brian Ehni 
(Sent from my iPhone)

On Nov 11, 2022, at 8:53 PM, Douglas Harding <iowacentralrr@...> wrote:



Certainly not brass, though it does have some brass parts, like ladders made from common ladder stock and brass drivers. It looks like an early MDC old timer, but MDC did not make a 4-6-0 old timer. Nor does it match a Mantua 4-6-0. There were other manufactures of similar steam engines back in the 50s. It looks to be made of cast metal, most likely zamac. As early as at is, be careful of zamac rot. Even the tender trucks were cast metal and easily broke. You can replace the trucks. The freewheeling indicates you have broken or missing gears. NWSL offers a variety of replacement gears. I don’t believe there is a prototype. It could be a kitbash of some sort, but I doubt it.

 

There should be room in the tender for a decoder. You will need to isolate the motor from the frame, or better install a can motor with gear box. The drivers will need the flanges turned down, or replace them.

 

But in the end you will still have a crude, generic steam engine in which you have invested a ton of money. You would be better to invest your funds in a better engine.

 

Doug Harding

https://www.facebook.com/douglas.harding.3156/

Youtube: Douglas Harding Iowa Central Railroad


Charlie Vlk
 

All-
'New One" in Japan made zamac cast locomotives.
The boiler/cab is reminiscent of a Roundhouse /MDC 0-6-0 but it would have been too short for a 4-6-0.   Not Varney, Bowser, Penn Line or Mantua.  
A mystery!
Charlie Vlk


On Nov 11, 2022, at 8:53 PM, Douglas Harding <iowacentralrr@...> wrote:



Certainly not brass, though it does have some brass parts, like ladders made from common ladder stock and brass drivers. It looks like an early MDC old timer, but MDC did not make a 4-6-0 old timer. Nor does it match a Mantua 4-6-0. There were other manufactures of similar steam engines back in the 50s. It looks to be made of cast metal, most likely zamac. As early as at is, be careful of zamac rot. Even the tender trucks were cast metal and easily broke. You can replace the trucks. The freewheeling indicates you have broken or missing gears. NWSL offers a variety of replacement gears. I don’t believe there is a prototype. It could be a kitbash of some sort, but I doubt it.

 

There should be room in the tender for a decoder. You will need to isolate the motor from the frame, or better install a can motor with gear box. The drivers will need the flanges turned down, or replace them.

 

But in the end you will still have a crude, generic steam engine in which you have invested a ton of money. You would be better to invest your funds in a better engine.

 

Doug Harding

https://www.facebook.com/douglas.harding.3156/

Youtube: Douglas Harding Iowa Central Railroad


Eric Hansmann
 

My first thought was Aristo Craft. 


Eric Hansmann
Murfreesboro, TN

On Nov 11, 2022, at 11:04 PM, Charlie Vlk <cvlk@...> wrote:

All-
'New One" in Japan made zamac cast locomotives.
The boiler/cab is reminiscent of a Roundhouse /MDC 0-6-0 but it would have been too short for a 4-6-0.   Not Varney, Bowser, Penn Line or Mantua.  
A mystery!
Charlie Vlk


On Nov 11, 2022, at 8:53 PM, Douglas Harding <iowacentralrr@...> wrote:



Certainly not brass, though it does have some brass parts, like ladders made from common ladder stock and brass drivers. It looks like an early MDC old timer, but MDC did not make a 4-6-0 old timer. Nor does it match a Mantua 4-6-0. There were other manufactures of similar steam engines back in the 50s. It looks to be made of cast metal, most likely zamac. As early as at is, be careful of zamac rot. Even the tender trucks were cast metal and easily broke. You can replace the trucks. The freewheeling indicates you have broken or missing gears. NWSL offers a variety of replacement gears. I don’t believe there is a prototype. It could be a kitbash of some sort, but I doubt it.

 

There should be room in the tender for a decoder. You will need to isolate the motor from the frame, or better install a can motor with gear box. The drivers will need the flanges turned down, or replace them.

 

But in the end you will still have a crude, generic steam engine in which you have invested a ton of money. You would be better to invest your funds in a better engine.

 

Doug Harding

https://www.facebook.com/douglas.harding.3156/

Youtube: Douglas Harding Iowa Central Railroad


Clarence Zink
 

Wow!  Quite a "mystery"!  Thanks everyone.

I haven't gotten the time yet to take it apart.  It might be surprising on the interior.

I'll look into the cost of re-motoring and re-gearing, and if not beyond my budget, might do it just to get the experience.  And the flanges do pose a problem.

Brian - as a matter of fact, we are thinking of having a park in one part of the layout.  Maybe that's the best spot for it!

Thanks everybody!

CRZ


Philip Dove
 

In reality l don't think locomotives got displayed in parks because their flanges were deep and detail a mite clunky. The big CN loco in Sarnia Ontario certainly has authentic wheels and bolt heads. 


Charlie Vlk
 

All-
Aristo-Craft was one of the main importers of "New One" so Eric might be correct.
The crew members have been very loyal to the #234; they should be rewarded with a new assignment or get a nice retirement gift and a well-deserved pension.
It looks lot be in good shape, so one could do what a master mechanic was said to put in his report; "Jack up the Whistle and build a new locomotive under it!"
Charlie Vlk


On Nov 12, 2022, at 4:58 PM, Philip Dove <philipdove22@...> wrote:


In reality l don't think locomotives got displayed in parks because their flanges were deep and detail a mite clunky. The big CN loco in Sarnia Ontario certainly has authentic wheels and bolt heads. 


Clarence Zink
 

I've just spent most of the morning digging around on the HOSEEKER.net website, and cannot come up with anything this thing could be.

Things on this loco that do not "fit" any of the various old manufacturers are:
  • a straight boiler, vs. the normal "double diameter" boiler.
    • if one of the manufacturers did have a single diameter boiler, the domes, whistle, bell, and headlight were in the wrong spots.
    • that was the biggest 'mismatch' of all of them
  • sorry, but the "New Ones" on HO SEEKER only shows a 4-6-0 Camelback, which this thing definitely is not.
  • but, an old Aristo-Craft 4-6-0 Casey Jones model drawing dated 1958 showed promise with a straight boiler, but had the mismatch above, 3 windows per cab side, and a different type of roof vent.   What my search did reveal was that there were at least 3 different roof vents modeled by various manufacturers.
  • none of the mfr's had the air tank on the left side
  • piping didn't match
  • most models on HOSEEKER had stepped running boards
So, yeah, maybe just jack up the whistle and put a new loco under it!  Ha!

I'll eventually get around to working on it, and let you all know what transpires.

Thanks for your time and interest.

Stay healthy and safe!

CRZ
  •  


Philip Dove
 

Might it be cross kitted or started using a Carey loco works boiler casting?


Jim Betz
 

Clarence,
  Some of those early models had comes that you attached yourself
using a nut on a screw imbedded in the dome thru a hole in the
boiler.  If this is one of those the builder may have placed the
domes "wrong" ... so pay attention to the spacing of the domes.

  Why not just take the shell off the frame and take some pictures
of the mechanism?
                                                                       - Jim in the PNW


Charles Happel
 

Have you posted it on HO-Steam@groups.io? There may be someone there who can provide more information.

“Politicians and diapers must be changed often, and for the same reason.”
Mark Twain

Chuck Happel




On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 10:23:31 AM EST, Jim Betz <jimbetz@...> wrote:


Clarence,
  Some of those early models had comes that you attached yourself
using a nut on a screw imbedded in the dome thru a hole in the
boiler.  If this is one of those the builder may have placed the
domes "wrong" ... so pay attention to the spacing of the domes.

  Why not just take the shell off the frame and take some pictures
of the mechanism?
                                                                       - Jim in the PNW


Edward Ovsenik
 

A great source for identifying Brass Trains is brasstrains.com.  Their database of brass models could possibly give you the Manufacturer and Importer.  Brass locos were generally made for specific prototypes.  If it appears in the database you have some assurance it was once running the rails of the D&RGW.

Ed

On Thu 11 10 2022 12:49:30 PM, Clarence Zink <clarence.zink@...> wrote:

Hi -
I'm aware this might not be the place for this question, but this group is about the "steam era".

I got an old brass Rio Grande 4-6-0 steam locomotive, #234, at a club raffle the other night, and want to authenticate it's existence.  It was a donation to the club, but has a broken rear truck on the tender.  There are no manufacturer's identification marks on it that I can find from an  external investigation.

It doesn't come up in any of the D&RGW websites I've tried.

Can anyone suggest a website that would/might contain some info about this loco?

Thanks,

CRZ


Merlyn Lauber
 

The Brass Guide and Price Book 2009 edition lists the D&RGW 4-6-0 you mention was imported by PFM and built by Tenshodo/ADSCH in 1971 Unpainted. I hope this helps your search.

Merlyn Lauber

----- Original Message -----
From: Edward Ovsenik &lt;eovsenik@...&gt;
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Sent: Thu, 10 Nov 2022 13:40:05 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] D&amp;RG 4-6-0 #234

A great source for identifying Brass Trains is brasstrains.com.  Their database of brass models could possibly give you the Manufacturer and Importer.  Brass locos were generally made for specific prototypes.  If it appears in the database you have some assurance it was once running the rails of the D&amp;RGW.

Ed

On Thu 11 10 2022 12:49:30 PM, Clarence Zink &lt;clarence.zink@...&gt; wrote:
Hi -
I&#039;m aware this might not be the place for this question, but this group is about the &#034;steam era&#034;.

I got an old brass Rio Grande 4-6-0 steam locomotive, #234, at a club raffle the other night, and want to authenticate it&#039;s existence.  It was a donation to the club, but has a broken rear truck on the tender.  There are no manufacturer&#039;s identification marks on it that I can find from an  external investigation.

It doesn&#039;t come up in any of the D&amp;RGW websites I&#039;ve tried.

Can anyone suggest a website that would/might contain some info about this loco?

Thanks,

CRZ


Clarence Zink
 

Oh, OK, thanks Merlyn.

I've still got to find the time to get out the tools and take it apart.

Thanks all, for a lively and interesting discussion.

Happy Thanksgiving to everyone.

Best,

Clarence