Topics

F&C B&M XM1


Clark Propst
 

Jason Klocke came up with a photo of one of these cars with the old door on either the DCI or FtDDM&S, don’t remember which? He picked up this flat kit off eBay cheap. The kit came with the KD #5s and sprung trucks. I traded labor for merchandise and built this model as part of the bargain. Spent a couple hours three afternoons to finish. I put a coat of primer (and a finger print) on it before putting it in the box.
Clark Propst
Mason City Iowa


Benjamin Hom
 

Clark Propst wrote:
"Jason Klocke came up with a photo of one of these cars with the old door on either the DCI or FtDDM&S, don’t remember which?"

Here's a Jim Sands photo of a car that went to the FDDM&S with a Youngstown door:


Ben Hom


Paul Doggett
 

Clark 

The fingerprint is the most important thing 😁😁😷 a nice looking build.

Paul Doggett.   England 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 


On 25 Sep 2020, at 20:49, Clark Propst <cepropst@q.com> wrote:


Jason Klocke came up with a photo of one of these cars with the old door on either the DCI or FtDDM&S, don’t remember which? He picked up this flat kit off eBay cheap. The kit came with the KD #5s and sprung trucks. I traded labor for merchandise and built this model as part of the bargain. Spent a couple hours three afternoons to finish. I put a coat of primer (and a finger print) on it before putting it in the box.
Clark Propst
Mason City Iowa

Attachments:


George Courtney
 

Good move, Clark,  If it is ever stolen, the police can id it now.


Jack Mullen
 

On Fri, Sep 25, 2020 at 12:00 PM, Benjamin Hom wrote:
Here's a Jim Sands photo of a car that went to the FDDM&S with a Youngstown door:
The intriguing thing about this photo is that the car to the left is also an ex-B&M XM-1, one that went to the WAG in the mid-'50s. 

Jack Mullen


rdgbuff56
 


It appears the WAG car has a different roof. Why would that be?

Francis A. Pehowic, Jr.

On Saturday, September 26, 2020, 03:19:54 AM EDT, Jack Mullen <jack.f.mullen@...> wrote:


On Fri, Sep 25, 2020 at 12:00 PM, Benjamin Hom wrote:
Here's a Jim Sands photo of a car that went to the FDDM&S with a Youngstown door:
The intriguing thing about this photo is that the car to the left is also an ex-B&M XM-1, one that went to the WAG in the mid-'50s. 

Jack Mullen


Garth Groff and Sally Sanford
 

Jack,

Really nothing intriguing here. The WAG and the FDDM&S were both H.E. Salzburg shortlines (IIRC, WAG in 1954 and FDDM&S in 1956). Both railroads used former B&M XM-1 boxcars, and the Salzburg management reassigned equipment among their various lines as needed.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff

On Sat, Sep 26, 2020 at 3:19 AM Jack Mullen <jack.f.mullen@...> wrote:
On Fri, Sep 25, 2020 at 12:00 PM, Benjamin Hom wrote:
Here's a Jim Sands photo of a car that went to the FDDM&S with a Youngstown door:
The intriguing thing about this photo is that the car to the left is also an ex-B&M XM-1, one that went to the WAG in the mid-'50s. 

Jack Mullen


Garth Groff and Sally Sanford
 

Friends,

Pardon my mistake. It should be H.E. Salzberg, not with a "u". 

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🦆

On Sat, Sep 26, 2020 at 5:27 AM Garth Groff and Sally Sanford via groups.io <mallardlodge1000=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:
Jack,

Really nothing intriguing here. The WAG and the FDDM&S were both H.E. Salzburg shortlines (IIRC, WAG in 1954 and FDDM&S in 1956). Both railroads used former B&M XM-1 boxcars, and the Salzburg management reassigned equipment among their various lines as needed.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff

On Sat, Sep 26, 2020 at 3:19 AM Jack Mullen <jack.f.mullen@...> wrote:
On Fri, Sep 25, 2020 at 12:00 PM, Benjamin Hom wrote:
Here's a Jim Sands photo of a car that went to the FDDM&S with a Youngstown door:
The intriguing thing about this photo is that the car to the left is also an ex-B&M XM-1, one that went to the WAG in the mid-'50s. 

Jack Mullen


akerboomk
 

RE: Why the different roof?

The FtDDM&S car is an ex B&M 72000 series car (4 door supports/guides).

I am suspecting the WAG is an ex-71000 series (I can’t see the door area to confirm)

They has different roofs “as built”.

See here for more details

            https://www.bmrrhs.org/box_71000_series/

 

Ken


--
Ken Akerboom


Rich Gibson
 

The original B&M cars were built with two different roof styles as well as two different door styles. 

Rich Gibson
Golden, CO


Schuyler Larrabee
 

Well, Garth, what IS intriguing is that these two cars happen to be coupled together.  The odds are long . . .

 

Schuyler

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Garth Groff and Sally Sanford
Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2020 5:26 AM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] F&C B&M XM1

 

Jack,

 

Really nothing intriguing here. The WAG and the FDDM&S were both H.E. Salzburg shortlines (IIRC, WAG in 1954 and FDDM&S in 1956). Both railroads used former B&M XM-1 boxcars, and the Salzburg management reassigned equipment among their various lines as needed.

 

Yours Aye,

 

 

Garth Groff

 

On Sat, Sep 26, 2020 at 3:19 AM Jack Mullen <jack.f.mullen@...> wrote:

On Fri, Sep 25, 2020 at 12:00 PM, Benjamin Hom wrote:

Here's a Jim Sands photo of a car that went to the FDDM&S with a Youngstown door:

The intriguing thing about this photo is that the car to the left is also an ex-B&M XM-1, one that went to the WAG in the mid-'50s. 

Jack Mullen


Garth Groff and Sally Sanford
 

Jack and Ben,

Well, I can't say for sure, but it is possible that one of the Salzberg shortlines had a shop that did repair work for the other related lines. Other possibilities are a seasonal traffic surge on one line that required extra cars, or maybe some of the cars were transferred from one line to another and were waiting for relettering. This might require some serious work with an ORER, and probably isn't worth the effort.

One other interesting point. This photo is on the Fallen Flags web site, where it is attributed to Jim Sands at Marshaltown, Iowa in 1966. In my 1959 ORER this series of cars only ran from 10000 to 10074. This suggests that car 10094 might not have been on the FDDM&S roster during our period of interest, though others of this class certainly were.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🦆


On Sat, Sep 26, 2020 at 11:22 AM Schuyler Larrabee via groups.io <schuyler.larrabee=verizon.net@groups.io> wrote:

Well, Garth, what IS intriguing is that these two cars happen to be coupled together.  The odds are long . . .

 

Schuyler

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Garth Groff and Sally Sanford
Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2020 5:26 AM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] F&C B&M XM1

 

Jack,

 

Really nothing intriguing here. The WAG and the FDDM&S were both H.E. Salzburg shortlines (IIRC, WAG in 1954 and FDDM&S in 1956). Both railroads used former B&M XM-1 boxcars, and the Salzburg management reassigned equipment among their various lines as needed.

 

Yours Aye,

 

 

Garth Groff

 

On Sat, Sep 26, 2020 at 3:19 AM Jack Mullen <jack.f.mullen@...> wrote:

On Fri, Sep 25, 2020 at 12:00 PM, Benjamin Hom wrote:

Here's a Jim Sands photo of a car that went to the FDDM&S with a Youngstown door:

The intriguing thing about this photo is that the car to the left is also an ex-B&M XM-1, one that went to the WAG in the mid-'50s. 

Jack Mullen


Schleigh Mike
 

Hello Group!

Allow me to dispel some misconceptions and set aside speculation about the XM-1 on the Salzberg roads.  First, the FtDDM&S was the first to receive these cars into their 10000-10099 series which reached at least 99 cars before the end of the decade.  This began in September of 1956.  Clarke's model was inspired by a photo of their 10007 taken after the date (1962?) of the 'uprating' of solid bearings another 10% nominal load capacity.  This car somehow escaped the changeover to the Youngstown door that replaced that rare "car builder's door" delivered with the original B&M 71000 collection.  This must have been a rare car in 1956 as the conventional wisdom is that these doors were all gone much earlier.

The WAG in turn began receiving their cars in the spring of 1958.  These were placed into a series beginning with 5000 and reached 150 by 1960.  Interestingly the cars for both roads were reconditioned including stenciling and reweighing at the B&M's Concord, New Hampshire shop receiving that location's "DS" marking.  The WAG was incorporated in 1954 but did not begin operations until the first day of 1956.  A common misconception is that the WAG cars were used extensively in green hide service.  I have found only one example of this.  These cars on both the Fort Dodge and WAG were XM roamers intended to earn their masters per diem income.  Indeed, the two cars in the Jim Sands photo from 1966 display 'used' grain doors indicating high quality XM service.  The full scope photo shows that the WAG car is 5240 which entered service on the road in 1965.  Note the newer cleaner paint.  This car is from the original B&M 72000 series with the exposed roof 'ribs.'  The Fort Dodge car is from the first group (71000) with the plain roof.  Rest assured that the roofs were not swapped around.  The Salzbergs were too frugal to ever do that.

The WAG 5240 is part of the second and final wave received of these cars.  However, by this time the B&M no longer owned them and they came instead from Hyman-Michaels (and possibly International Railway Car Company).  These companies bought 1300 cars from the total B&M 71000-72999 group and leased them back to that RR.  This accounts for the renumbering that occurred between June 1955 and December 1956.  These last cars eventually brought their WAG population to over 500 cars.  All later cars were instead refurbished at Galeton, Penna.  Many of these were stripped of their running boards and had "A"end ladders cut short.  The WAG XM-1 boxcars were used well past our time of interest last going off-line with loads in June of 1975.

The Salzberg family did not swap cars around within the family.  Many cars were refurbished at Galeton for other parts of the family but these were cars purchased for those receiving roads.  Only a handful of service cars and the PS-1s from the Louisiana & Northwest came within the family to the WAG.  My apologies that much of this history came after our time of interest.  It is conceivable that the many WAG cars might have been sent to family members that needed more cars for seasonal loadings such as for grain.

Back to the B&M XM-1s.  These cars were an interesting lot for several reasons but one very intriguing is the AB conversion arrangement.  The RR chose to mount the triple valve entirely below the lowest face of the center sill.  This resulted in the device being very prominent in any view across the underside of the car. This seems a very unusual choice given how low the valve, dirt collector, and piping are positioned.  One wonders if this was ever an issue for higher rates of over-the-road damage.  It is a modeling detail worth capturing.

Sorry but I like to talk about these cars----Mike Schleigh in Grove City, Penna.

On Saturday, September 26, 2020, 04:36:06 PM EDT, Garth Groff and Sally Sanford <mallardlodge1000@...> wrote:


Jack and Ben,

Well, I can't say for sure, but it is possible that one of the Salzberg shortlines had a shop that did repair work for the other related lines. Other possibilities are a seasonal traffic surge on one line that required extra cars, or maybe some of the cars were transferred from one line to another and were waiting for relettering. This might require some serious work with an ORER, and probably isn't worth the effort.

One other interesting point. This photo is on the Fallen Flags web site, where it is attributed to Jim Sands at Marshaltown, Iowa in 1966. In my 1959 ORER this series of cars only ran from 10000 to 10074. This suggests that car 10094 might not have been on the FDDM&S roster during our period of interest, though others of this class certainly were.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🦆


On Sat, Sep 26, 2020 at 11:22 AM Schuyler Larrabee via groups.io <schuyler.larrabee=verizon.net@groups.io> wrote:

Well, Garth, what IS intriguing is that these two cars happen to be coupled together.  The odds are long . . .

 

Schuyler

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Garth Groff and Sally Sanford
Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2020 5:26 AM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] F&C B&M XM1

 

Jack,

 

Really nothing intriguing here. The WAG and the FDDM&S were both H.E. Salzburg shortlines (IIRC, WAG in 1954 and FDDM&S in 1956). Both railroads used former B&M XM-1 boxcars, and the Salzburg management reassigned equipment among their various lines as needed.

 

Yours Aye,

 

 

Garth Groff

 

On Sat, Sep 26, 2020 at 3:19 AM Jack Mullen <jack.f.mullen@...> wrote:

On Fri, Sep 25, 2020 at 12:00 PM, Benjamin Hom wrote:

Here's a Jim Sands photo of a car that went to the FDDM&S with a Youngstown door:

The intriguing thing about this photo is that the car to the left is also an ex-B&M XM-1, one that went to the WAG in the mid-'50s. 

Jack Mullen


Douglas Harding
 

Here is a scan of the entire Jim Sands photo, showing both the WAG and FDDMS boxcars being discussed. The original slide is part of my collection. Many of Jim Sands freight car photos were shot in Marshalltown IA in 1966-68.

 

Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Schleigh Mike via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, September 27, 2020 10:31 AM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] F&C B&M XM1

 

Hello Group!

 

Allow me to dispel some misconceptions and set aside speculation about the XM-1 on the Salzberg roads.  First, the FtDDM&S was the first to receive these cars into their 10000-10099 series which reached at least 99 cars before the end of the decade.  This began in September of 1956.  Clarke's model was inspired by a photo of their 10007 taken after the date (1962?) of the 'uprating' of solid bearings another 10% nominal load capacity.  This car somehow escaped the changeover to the Youngstown door that replaced that rare "car builder's door" delivered with the original B&M 71000 collection.  This must have been a rare car in 1956 as the conventional wisdom is that these doors were all gone much earlier.

 

The WAG in turn began receiving their cars in the spring of 1958.  These were placed into a series beginning with 5000 and reached 150 by 1960.  Interestingly the cars for both roads were reconditioned including stenciling and reweighing at the B&M's Concord, New Hampshire shop receiving that location's "DS" marking.  The WAG was incorporated in 1954 but did not begin operations until the first day of 1956.  A common misconception is that the WAG cars were used extensively in green hide service.  I have found only one example of this.  These cars on both the Fort Dodge and WAG were XM roamers intended to earn their masters per diem income.  Indeed, the two cars in the Jim Sands photo from 1966 display 'used' grain doors indicating high quality XM service.  The full scope photo shows that the WAG car is 5240 which entered service on the road in 1965.  Note the newer cleaner paint.  This car is from the original B&M 72000 series with the exposed roof 'ribs.'  The Fort Dodge car is from the first group (71000) with the plain roof.  Rest assured that the roofs were not swapped around.  The Salzbergs were too frugal to ever do that.

 

The WAG 5240 is part of the second and final wave received of these cars.  However, by this time the B&M no longer owned them and they came instead from Hyman-Michaels (and possibly International Railway Car Company).  These companies bought 1300 cars from the total B&M 71000-72999 group and leased them back to that RR.  This accounts for the renumbering that occurred between June 1955 and December 1956.  These last cars eventually brought their WAG population to over 500 cars.  All later cars were instead refurbished at Galeton, Penna.  Many of these were stripped of their running boards and had "A"end ladders cut short.  The WAG XM-1 boxcars were used well past our time of interest last going off-line with loads in June of 1975.

 

The Salzberg family did not swap cars around within the family.  Many cars were refurbished at Galeton for other parts of the family but these were cars purchased for those receiving roads.  Only a handful of service cars and the PS-1s from the Louisiana & Northwest came within the family to the WAG.  My apologies that much of this history came after our time of interest.  It is conceivable that the many WAG cars might have been sent to family members that needed more cars for seasonal loadings such as for grain.

 

Back to the B&M XM-1s.  These cars were an interesting lot for several reasons but one very intriguing is the AB conversion arrangement.  The RR chose to mount the triple valve entirely below the lowest face of the center sill.  This resulted in the device being very prominent in any view across the underside of the car. This seems a very unusual choice given how low the valve, dirt collector, and piping are positioned.  One wonders if this was ever an issue for higher rates of over-the-road damage.  It is a modeling detail worth capturing.

 

Sorry but I like to talk about these cars----Mike Schleigh in Grove City, Penna.

 

On Saturday, September 26, 2020, 04:36:06 PM EDT, Garth Groff and Sally Sanford <mallardlodge1000@...> wrote:

 

 

Jack and Ben,

 

Well, I can't say for sure, but it is possible that one of the Salzberg shortlines had a shop that did repair work for the other related lines. Other possibilities are a seasonal traffic surge on one line that required extra cars, or maybe some of the cars were transferred from one line to another and were waiting for relettering. This might require some serious work with an ORER, and probably isn't worth the effort.

 

One other interesting point. This photo is on the Fallen Flags web site, where it is attributed to Jim Sands at Marshaltown, Iowa in 1966. In my 1959 ORER this series of cars only ran from 10000 to 10074. This suggests that car 10094 might not have been on the FDDM&S roster during our period of interest, though others of this class certainly were.

 

Yours Aye,

 

 

Garth Groff  🦆

 

 

On Sat, Sep 26, 2020 at 11:22 AM Schuyler Larrabee via groups.io <schuyler.larrabee=verizon.net@groups.io> wrote:

Well, Garth, what IS intriguing is that these two cars happen to be coupled together.  The odds are long . . .

 

Schuyler

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Garth Groff and Sally Sanford
Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2020 5:26 AM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] F&C B&M XM1

 

Jack,

 

Really nothing intriguing here. The WAG and the FDDM&S were both H.E. Salzburg shortlines (IIRC, WAG in 1954 and FDDM&S in 1956). Both railroads used former B&M XM-1 boxcars, and the Salzburg management reassigned equipment among their various lines as needed.

 

Yours Aye,

 

 

Garth Groff

 

On Sat, Sep 26, 2020 at 3:19 AM Jack Mullen <jack.f.mullen@...> wrote:

On Fri, Sep 25, 2020 at 12:00 PM, Benjamin Hom wrote:

Here's a Jim Sands photo of a car that went to the FDDM&S with a Youngstown door:

The intriguing thing about this photo is that the car to the left is also an ex-B&M XM-1, one that went to the WAG in the mid-'50s. 

Jack Mullen


Mark Rossiter
 

Mike, thanks for the comprehensive history of these cars.  I am a sucker for box cars of smaller, lesser known roads.  The fact that some WAG cars roamed the country really flats my boat!  Thanks again!

 

Mark Rossiter

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 


Clark Propst
 

Beings you like to talk about these cars Mike. Why don't you give a talk on the virtual RPM sometime? Great info BTW
Clark Propst


Garth Groff and Sally Sanford
 

Mark,

And get around they did. Attached is my photo of one in the SP's Roseville yard circa 1968. 

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🦆

On Mon, Sep 28, 2020 at 2:02 PM Mark Rossiter <mrossiter327@...> wrote:

Mike, thanks for the comprehensive history of these cars.  I am a sucker for box cars of smaller, lesser known roads.  The fact that some WAG cars roamed the country really flats my boat!  Thanks again!

 

Mark Rossiter

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 


akerboomk
 

RE: the WAG cars went “everywhere” :-)

 

They did so under B&M ownership as well.

 

I’ve recently been working on the B&M “Car books” which (among other things) records when/where B&M cars were wrecked on other railroads.

A summary (just by RR & car type) is attached (from 6/1923-03/1960)

 

Not too surprising are the first 3 – I believe that is (more or less) the same order that they are in for total traffic/carloads/whatever (plus they are either direct connects, in the case of NYC, or “not too far afield”)

I’m not sure where NYNH&H ranked in terms of traffic/loads, but as they were a direct interchange partner, I’m not too surprised they were #4

 

What I find interesting is the 7 cars wrecked on (4 different) Mexican RRs

And the 7 wrecked on [CN + CP]

Showing these cars were an *international* pool of cars…

 

One other statistical anomaly – for RRs with “other” types of wrecked cars, the “other” types were all the same per RR (e.g.. the NYC only wrecked B&M baggage cars, the StJ&LC only wrecked cabooses, etc.)

 

Car book data (original scans & transcriptions) are available on the B&MRRHS web site (in on-line archives)

In case you want to find out specifics of which cars went to the FtDDM&S or WAG…

 

Ken

 


--
Ken Akerboom


Donald B. Valentine
 

With bulging sheathing boards that will drive Ted Cullota nuts after his virtual clinic last Saturday. LOL

 

Cordially, Don Valentine

 

 

 

 


Donald B. Valentine
 

Great info Ken. Thanks for posting it. I find it interesting that more cars were wrecked on what I have long called the Standard Scrapyard of the World than on the next two railroads on which a large number of cars were wrecked combined. No, I do not think it is because a larger amount of B&M traffic went via the Pennsy.

 

Cordially, Don Valentine