Five US Army Troop Cars


gary laakso
 

They are seen moving in a freight in 1949, complete with their Allied Full Cushion trucks:

 

https://donstrack.smugmug.com/UtahRails/Emil-Albrecht-Photos/1949-Oct-Farmington-West-Ogden/i-4vZvpSv/A  

 

Gary Laakso

 

Northwest of Mike Brock


Alex Schneider
 

Did Rio Grande buy such cars for conversion to express, MOW or whatever?

 

Alex Schneider

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of gary laakso
Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2022 10:27 AM
To: RealSTMFC@groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Five US Army Troop Cars

 

They are seen moving in a freight in 1949, complete with their Allied Full Cushion trucks:

 

https://donstrack.smugmug.com/UtahRails/Emil-Albrecht-Photos/1949-Oct-Farmington-West-Ogden/i-4vZvpSv/A  

 

Gary Laakso

 

Northwest of Mike Brock


Paul Doggett
 

Gary 

Are those the kitchen cars ?
Paul Doggett 



On 27 Nov 2022, at 16:27, gary laakso <vasa0vasa@...> wrote:



They are seen moving in a freight in 1949, complete with their Allied Full Cushion trucks:

 

https://donstrack.smugmug.com/UtahRails/Emil-Albrecht-Photos/1949-Oct-Farmington-West-Ogden/i-4vZvpSv/A  

 

Gary Laakso

 

Northwest of Mike Brock


 

Sure look like it. 

Thanks!
Brian Ehni 
(Sent from my iPhone)

On Nov 27, 2022, at 12:30 PM, Paul Doggett via groups.io <paul.doggett2472@...> wrote:

Gary 

Are those the kitchen cars ?
Paul Doggett 



On 27 Nov 2022, at 16:27, gary laakso <vasa0vasa@...> wrote:



They are seen moving in a freight in 1949, complete with their Allied Full Cushion trucks:

 

https://donstrack.smugmug.com/UtahRails/Emil-Albrecht-Photos/1949-Oct-Farmington-West-Ogden/i-4vZvpSv/A  

 

Gary Laakso

 

Northwest of Mike Brock


Hudson Leighton
 

The photos were dated by date the cars were built, and when the US Army stopped issuing that style of shoe.

I never thought I would be consulting with a Army clothing expert to date RR photos.

http://www.nprha.org/BRHS/BRHS_467_1_355.jpg

http://www.nprha.org/BRHS/BRHS_467_1_356.jpg

http://www.nprha.org/BRHS/BRHS_467_1_357.jpg

http://www.nprha.org/BRHS/BRHS_467_1_358.jpg

-Hudson


Nelson Moyer
 

Yes, they are troop kitchens. CB&Q bought a bunch and ran them as express cars with barred windows and Allied Trucks initially, then they plated over the windows and changed the trucks. After a while, the steam and signal lines were removed, and the cars were assigned to freight and MOW service.

 

I don’t know about D&RGW, but many roads bought surplus troop kitchens after the war to fill in for aged retired baggage cars until new ones could be built or bought.

 

Nelson Moyer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Paul Doggett via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2022 11:30 AM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Five US Army Troop Cars

 

Gary 

 

Are those the kitchen cars ?

Paul Doggett 

 



On 27 Nov 2022, at 16:27, gary laakso <vasa0vasa@...> wrote:



They are seen moving in a freight in 1949, complete with their Allied Full Cushion trucks:

 

https://donstrack.smugmug.com/UtahRails/Emil-Albrecht-Photos/1949-Oct-Farmington-West-Ogden/i-4vZvpSv/A  

 

Gary Laakso

 

Northwest of Mike Brock


Nelson Moyer
 

These cars are the troop sleepers. Seats converted into multi-level bunk beds, something like four bunks high.

 

Nelson Moyer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Hudson Leighton
Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2022 11:54 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Five US Army Troop Cars

 

The photos were dated by date the cars were built, and when the US Army stopped issuing that style of shoe.

I never thought I would be consulting with a Army clothing expert to date RR photos.

http://www.nprha.org/BRHS/BRHS_467_1_355.jpg

http://www.nprha.org/BRHS/BRHS_467_1_356.jpg

http://www.nprha.org/BRHS/BRHS_467_1_357.jpg

http://www.nprha.org/BRHS/BRHS_467_1_358.jpg

-Hudson


Bruce Smith
 

Yes, all 5 are kitchen cars. Since they appear to be in original paint, I suspect this is a move to position them in storage. The cars sold to railroads were generally sold through an intermediary. In addition, it appears that, while the D&RGW did get ex-troop cars, these were troop sleepers and not kitchens.

Regards,
Bruce Smith, Auburn, AL

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of BRIAN PAUL EHNI <bpehni@...>
Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2022 11:40 AM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io <main@realstmfc.groups.io>
Subject: [EXT] Re: [RealSTMFC] Five US Army Troop Cars
 
CAUTION: Email Originated Outside of Auburn.
Sure look like it. 

Thanks!
Brian Ehni 
(Sent from my iPhone)

On Nov 27, 2022, at 12:30 PM, Paul Doggett via groups.io <paul.doggett2472@...> wrote:

Gary 

Are those the kitchen cars ?
Paul Doggett 



On 27 Nov 2022, at 16:27, gary laakso <vasa0vasa@...> wrote:



They are seen moving in a freight in 1949, complete with their Allied Full Cushion trucks:

 

https://donstrack.smugmug.com/UtahRails/Emil-Albrecht-Photos/1949-Oct-Farmington-West-Ogden/i-4vZvpSv/A  

 

Gary Laakso

 

Northwest of Mike Brock


Bruce Smith
 

And indeed, they are from the 1st, 1943 order of troop sleepers as they have the central step well.

Regards,
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Nelson Moyer <npmoyer@...>
Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2022 11:57 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: [EXT] Re: [RealSTMFC] Five US Army Troop Cars
 
CAUTION: Email Originated Outside of Auburn.

These cars are the troop sleepers. Seats converted into multi-level bunk beds, something like four bunks high.

 

Nelson Moyer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Hudson Leighton
Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2022 11:54 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Five US Army Troop Cars

 

The photos were dated by date the cars were built, and when the US Army stopped issuing that style of shoe.

I never thought I would be consulting with a Army clothing expert to date RR photos.

http://www.nprha.org/BRHS/BRHS_467_1_355.jpg

http://www.nprha.org/BRHS/BRHS_467_1_356.jpg

http://www.nprha.org/BRHS/BRHS_467_1_357.jpg

http://www.nprha.org/BRHS/BRHS_467_1_358.jpg

-Hudson


Dave Nelson
 

1949, right?

 

FWIW there was a POW camp just north of Salt Lake City.  German soldiers were shipped in from eastern ports.  I have a vague recollection there were actual POW cars but I do not know if they were old Pullmans or these “War Emergency Pullmans”.

 

So 2 questions: Were there POW cars in the style shown in the photo?  Given luxury accommodations weren’t high on the list of POW service would a POW load move in a freight train – a different sort of livestock load or as a passenger train?

 

Dave Nelson

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of gary laakso
Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2022 8:27 AM
To: RealSTMFC@groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Five US Army Troop Cars

 

They are seen moving in a freight in 1949, complete with their Allied Full Cushion trucks:

 

https://donstrack.smugmug.com/UtahRails/Emil-Albrecht-Photos/1949-Oct-Farmington-West-Ogden/i-4vZvpSv/A  

 

Gary Laakso


Dennis Storzek
 

On Sun, Nov 27, 2022 at 08:00 PM, Dave Nelson wrote:

1949, right?

 

FWIW there was a POW camp just north of Salt Lake City.  German soldiers were shipped in from eastern ports.  I have a vague recollection there were actual POW cars but I do not know if they were old Pullmans or these “War Emergency Pullmans”.

You're kidding, right? The picture is 1949 while the war in Europe ended FOUR YEARS earlier. Wikipedia says that all were repatriated by early 1946. From what I've read elsewhere, transport of POWs was on par with transport of our own troops; coaches for day long trips, sleepers for longer trips, and I would imagine that included troop sleepers if that's what was available. Anyway, as others have said, the five cars in the photo were all kitchen cars, not sleepers.

Dennis Storzek

Dennis Storzek


Curt Fortenberry
 


As Bruce noted, the railroads acquired the former troop cars through intermediaries.  The Alaska Railroad (then a federal entity), acquired all the former troop cars at the end of WW2.  Many came to Alaska, but many were converted by Chicago Freight car then resold.  ARR apparently worked a deal such that CFCP acquired cars in trade for the work they did for the ARR.

Curt Fortenberry


Alex Schneider
 

Whatever else they were they weren’t transporting POWs. By 1949 German prisoners of war had been sent back to Europe. Some were repatriated, others forced to work in the UK and France for several more years, in violation of the Geneva Convention mandate for rapid repatriation. A handful escaped to avoid repatriation to Soviet-occupied areas.

 

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_prisoners_of_war_in_the_United_States

 

Smaller numbers of Italian and Japanese prisoners were also repatriated.

 

Alex Schneider

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Dave Nelson
Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2022 8:00 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Five US Army Troop Cars

 

1949, right?

 

FWIW there was a POW camp just north of Salt Lake City.  German soldiers were shipped in from eastern ports.  I have a vague recollection there were actual POW cars but I do not know if they were old Pullmans or these “War Emergency Pullmans”.

 

So 2 questions: Were there POW cars in the style shown in the photo?  Given luxury accommodations weren’t high on the list of POW service would a POW load move in a freight train – a different sort of livestock load or as a passenger train?

 

Dave Nelson

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of gary laakso
Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2022 8:27 AM
To: RealSTMFC@groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Five US Army Troop Cars

 

They are seen moving in a freight in 1949, complete with their Allied Full Cushion trucks:

 

https://donstrack.smugmug.com/UtahRails/Emil-Albrecht-Photos/1949-Oct-Farmington-West-Ogden/i-4vZvpSv/A  

 

Gary Laakso


Bruce Smith
 

Dave,

No, definitely NOT POWs... In addition to the fact that these are kitchens and the war was long over, POWs typically moved in coaches. The example I have seen is PRR P70 coaches, with wood blocks secured to the windows to allow them to open just enough for ventilation but not to allow escape.

It is highly unlikely that pullmans would be used for POWs (except perhaps officers, but even there, I think it would be unlikely there as well) as there are too many places where the POWs could not be seen by the guards, not too mention that they were needed for US troops. 

It is also highly unlikely for POWs to move in freights. Every minute that they are not in a camp poses a danger, and the accompanying guards were not going to be subject to their cars (which were Pullmans) being unheated in the winter. 

Regards,
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Dave Nelson <Western.Pacific.203@...>
Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2022 7:59 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: [EXT] Re: [RealSTMFC] Five US Army Troop Cars
 
CAUTION: Email Originated Outside of Auburn.

1949, right?

 

FWIW there was a POW camp just north of Salt Lake City.  German soldiers were shipped in from eastern ports.  I have a vague recollection there were actual POW cars but I do not know if they were old Pullmans or these “War Emergency Pullmans”.

 

So 2 questions: Were there POW cars in the style shown in the photo?  Given luxury accommodations weren’t high on the list of POW service would a POW load move in a freight train – a different sort of livestock load or as a passenger train?

 

Dave Nelson

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of gary laakso
Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2022 8:27 AM
To: RealSTMFC@groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Five US Army Troop Cars

 

They are seen moving in a freight in 1949, complete with their Allied Full Cushion trucks:

 

https://donstrack.smugmug.com/UtahRails/Emil-Albrecht-Photos/1949-Oct-Farmington-West-Ogden/i-4vZvpSv/A  

 

Gary Laakso


spsalso
 


Andy Laurent
 

Here are a couple images of a POW train arriving in Sturgeon Bay, WI in July 1945. The train includes (in other high-res images):

CB&Q 40' steel boxcar
Pullman Hollywood Beach (assuming for guards)
GM&O 215 coach
CB&Q 4476 coach (there appears to be 3 identical Q clerestory-roof coaches following this car, with another 3 similar cars visible at the end of the train)

Andy L.
Madison, WI


Ken Adams
 

Jim Crow coaches from the Mobile & Alabama?
--
Ken Adams
Covid Variants may come and go but I choose to still live mostly in splendid Shelter In Place solitude
Location: About half way up Walnut Creek
Owner PlasticFreightCarBuilders@groups.io


Dave Nelson
 

Sorry.  I do know when WWII ended.  I wrongly assumed everyone would understand I was speaking of the past.  Another example of why “write so as not to be misunderstood” is good advice.

 

Sorry for the confusion.

 

Dave Nelson

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Dennis Storzek via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2022 7:08 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Five US Army Troop Cars

 

On Sun, Nov 27, 2022 at 08:00 PM, Dave Nelson wrote:

1949, right?

 

FWIW there was a POW camp just north of Salt Lake City.  German soldiers were shipped in from eastern ports.  I have a vague recollection there were actual POW cars but I do not know if they were old Pullmans or these “War Emergency Pullmans”.

You're kidding, right? The picture is 1949 while the war in Europe ended FOUR YEARS earlier. Wikipedia says that all were repatriated by early 1946. From what I've read elsewhere, transport of POWs was on par with transport of our own troops; coaches for day long trips, sleepers for longer trips, and I would imagine that included troop sleepers if that's what was available. Anyway, as others have said, the five cars in the photo were all kitchen cars, not sleepers.

Dennis Storzek

Dennis Storzek


Ken Vandevoort
 

One of my favorite photos from WWII is my dad standing in line to get on a Pullman troop sleeper which was taking him from Wendover, Utah to the west coast to get on the Cape Victory to take him to Tinian Island.  I asked dad if he got to come back to the states after the war ended and he said "no".  They were kept on Tinian with a 3rd atomic bomb in case the peace process broke down.  They got to leave in January, 1946.  The war ended in August, 1945, but the wartime railroad traffic did not.  Best part was he got to ride a lot of trains and also experienced the North Platte Canteen.

Ken Vandevoort