#### Frisco “Sawtooth” boxcar photo - North/south, east/west longitude/latitude

Schuyler Larrabee

As I thought for quite a while, Guy, but I’ve come around to embracing the harder-to-say “latitudinal” running board.  As you say it means width, and the latitudinal boards run across the WIDTH of the car, vs. the length.

Think of the car as a map.  North and south, that’s longitude.  East and west is latitude.

Schuyler

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of radiodial868
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2020 11:22 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Frisco “Sawtooth” boxcar photo

On Wed, Dec 2, 2020 at 08:33 AM, Guy Wilber wrote:

As “Latitudinal Running Board” is the official term used by The MCBA, ARA and AAR.

Guy Wilber
Reno, Nevada

Ha!
Well, that is just silly now. Latitudinal means "width" and Longitudinal means "length".
No wonder we are all nuts.
-------------------
RJ Dial

Mendocino, CA

Dave Parker

The Oxford dictionary definition of longitudinal is (1) running lengthwise rather than across (not "length"), (2) relating to longitude; measured from east to west (sorry Schuyler, you're off by 90 degrees).

The comparable definition of latitudinal is "
relating to the position of a place north or south of the earth's equator".

IOW, latitudinal does not seem to have a non-geographical definition in modern usage.  But, it implicitly means perpendicular to longitudinal, which is why I have no real problem with the MCB/ARA/AAR usage for those short running boards at each end of many house cars.  It is what it is.
--
Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA

Schuyler Larrabee

No Dave, I’m correct.  Yes, longitude in the geographical sense involves a dimension east or west of the prime meridian, and that’s the SECOND definition, but as you say in the first meaning, it’s “running lengthwise.”  As we all know (?) the B end of the car is the back end, the A end, the front.  From this you establish which is the left side and which is the right side, confirmed on many cars with an “L” or “R” painted on the side near the door.

So my understanding is standing at the B end of the car, right side to the right, left side to the left and what is ahead of me is the length of the car, the first definition from the Oxford dictionary.

If you’re looking at this in comparison to the geographical use of longitude and latitude, the East/West lines run across the car, from side to side.  Don’t say “left to right,” as the lines go either way..

Schuyler

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Dave Parker via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2020 2:44 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Frisco “Sawtooth” boxcar photo - North/south, east/west longitude/latitude

The Oxford dictionary definition of longitudinal is (1) running lengthwise rather than across (not "length"), (2) relating to longitude; measured from east to west (sorry Schuyler, you're off by 90 degrees).

The comparable definition of latitudinal is "relating to the position of a place north or south of the earth's equator".

IOW, latitudinal does not seem to have a non-geographical definition in modern usage.  But, it implicitly means perpendicular to longitudinal, which is why I have no real problem with the MCB/ARA/AAR usage for those short running boards at each end of many house cars.  It is what it is.
--
Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA

Dave Parker

Is the "B" end of the car really the back end?  Or is it the end with the hand Brake?  Anybody know how the MCB came up with A and B?

Personally, I see no need (or purpose) to think of the car as a map.  Viewed from above, there is a long axis and a short axis.  The long axis runs longitudinally (= lengthwise).  End of story.
--
Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA

Dave Parker

Answered my own question.  From the 1903 CBC:

--
Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA

Ed Hawkins

On Dec 3, 2020, at 2:10 PM, Dave Parker via groups.io <spottab@...> wrote:

Is the "B" end of the car really the back end?  Or is it the end with the hand Brake?  Anybody know how the MCB came up with A and B?

Personally, I see no need (or purpose) to think of the car as a map.  Viewed from above, there is a long axis and a short axis.  The long axis runs longitudinally (= lengthwise).  End of story.

Dave,
As you noted in your follow-up message about the “B” end being the hand brake end, it’s often useful to know which are the left & right sides of a freight car.

When viewing a car from behind the “B” end, the left car side is to the left & the right car side is to the right. Or, of course, it’s the opposite when viewing a freight car from behind the “A” end. Often, but not always, letter stencils “L” and “R” are applied to the sides of a freight car. For box cars these stencils are typically either on the door or just to the left of the door.

In many cases the left & right sides weren’t exactly identical as there could be various differences, such as a single defect card holder that was typically mounted to just one side of a freight car (usually the right side, but not always).

Knowing the shorthand notations of any freight car (A, B, L, R) can also be quite useful when identifying photographs, particularly for multiple views of the same car. File names of freight car digital scans can be denoted accordingly such as L or R for side views, 3/4BL, 3/4AR, etc.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins

Schuyler Larrabee

You don’t see the need because you were not around in 19XX (or was it 18XX?) when the nomenclature was established.  We talk differently now.  This is the same thing as the controversy about running boards vs/ roof walks.  As with others, I default (when I am thinking about it) to the industry terms.

Schuyler

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Dave Parker via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2020 3:11 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Frisco “Sawtooth” boxcar photo - North/south, east/west longitude/latitude

Is the "B" end of the car really the back end?  Or is it the end with the hand Brake?  Anybody know how the MCB came up with A and B?

Personally, I see no need (or purpose) to think of the car as a map.  Viewed from above, there is a long axis and a short axis.  The long axis runs longitudinally (= lengthwise).  End of story.
--
Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA

Tony Thompson

Ed Hawkins wrote:

Knowing the shorthand notations of any freight car (A, B, L, R) can also be quite useful when identifying photographs, particularly for multiple views of the same car. File names of freight car digital scans can be denoted accordingly such as L or R for side views, 3/4BL, 3/4AR, etc.

You see this usage also in car service records, such as "replaced AR sideframe" (truck).

Tony Thompson

Dennis Storzek

On Thu, Dec 3, 2020 at 01:59 PM, Tony Thompson wrote:

You see this usage also in car service records, such as "replaced AR sideframe" (truck).
And I'm sure that's where it came from, an unambiguous way to describe a defect in need of repair. The MCB system for freight cars is one of three the railroads used, all from different origins but for the same purpose - defect reporting.

Railroad self propelled MU cars are much like freight cars in that they are intended to be bi-directional, and don't usually have distinctive front and rear ends. There is still the need, however, to be able to define where the defect in need of repair is located on the car. Since the early electric MU cars came from the same builders that built streetcars, the system already in use was adopted, and each car had a No.1 and No.2 end, the No.1 end being defined as the end with the electrical cabinet in the cab, or if no cabinet, the end with the main circuit breaker.

Few people have trouble identifying the front end of a steam locomotive, and the right and left side naturally follow, but when diesel road switchers were introduced their bi-directional nature lead to confusion. This lead the ICC to require that locomotives have the front clearly designated with the letter F stenciled on the frame, again for the purpose of defect reporting, and this requirement eventually applied to the MU fleets also.

Dennis Storzek

Schuyler Larrabee

Dennis Storzek writes:

Few people have trouble identifying the front end of a steam locomotive,”

I agree, but I had my mind expanded a little last night while watching a presentation on the Welsh Highland Railway, which uses a number of Beyer-Garrat locomotives.  At one point, one of these engines is moved out onto the main line, and backs down to couple up to a passenger train  . . . with the boiler OBVIOUSLY oriented the “wrong way.”

On a B-G, the cab leads the boiler, somewhat in the manner of an SP Cab Forward, and likely for much the same reason.  The smoke and gasses are exhausted well behind the cab as the train moves forward.

Exceptions make the rule . . .

Schuyler

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Dennis Storzek
Sent: Friday, December 04, 2020 12:36 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Frisco “Sawtooth” boxcar photo - North/south, east/west longitude/latitude

On Thu, Dec 3, 2020 at 01:59 PM, Tony Thompson wrote:

You see this usage also in car service records, such as "replaced AR sideframe" (truck).

And I'm sure that's where it came from, an unambiguous way to describe a defect in need of repair. The MCB system for freight cars is one of three the railroads used, all from different origins but for the same purpose - defect reporting.

Railroad self propelled MU cars are much like freight cars in that they are intended to be bi-directional, and don't usually have distinctive front and rear ends. There is still the need, however, to be able to define where the defect in need of repair is located on the car. Since the early electric MU cars came from the same builders that built streetcars, the system already in use was adopted, and each car had a No.1 and No.2 end, the No.1 end being defined as the end with the electrical cabinet in the cab, or if no cabinet, the end with the main circuit breaker.

Few people have trouble identifying the front end of a steam locomotive, and the right and left side naturally follow, but when diesel road switchers were introduced their bi-directional nature lead to confusion. This lead the ICC to require that locomotives have the front clearly designated with the letter F stenciled on the frame, again for the purpose of defect reporting, and this requirement eventually applied to the MU fleets also.

Dennis Storzek

Paul Doggett

Schuyler

The Beyer-Garrets are basically a tank engine and run forwards or backwards at the same speed there’s no need to turn them at each end of the run. They are just as good going backwards or forwards.

Paul Doggett.    England 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿

On 4 Dec 2020, at 20:54, Schuyler Larrabee via groups.io <schuyler.larrabee@...> wrote:

﻿

Dennis Storzek writes:

Few people have trouble identifying the front end of a steam locomotive,”

I agree, but I had my mind expanded a little last night while watching a presentation on the Welsh Highland Railway, which uses a number of Beyer-Garrat locomotives.  At one point, one of these engines is moved out onto the main line, and backs down to couple up to a passenger train  . . . with the boiler OBVIOUSLY oriented the “wrong way.”

On a B-G, the cab leads the boiler, somewhat in the manner of an SP Cab Forward, and likely for much the same reason.  The smoke and gasses are exhausted well behind the cab as the train moves forward.

Exceptions make the rule . . .

Schuyler

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Dennis Storzek
Sent: Friday, December 04, 2020 12:36 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Frisco “Sawtooth” boxcar photo - North/south, east/west longitude/latitude

On Thu, Dec 3, 2020 at 01:59 PM, Tony Thompson wrote:

You see this usage also in car service records, such as "replaced AR sideframe" (truck).

And I'm sure that's where it came from, an unambiguous way to describe a defect in need of repair. The MCB system for freight cars is one of three the railroads used, all from different origins but for the same purpose - defect reporting.

Railroad self propelled MU cars are much like freight cars in that they are intended to be bi-directional, and don't usually have distinctive front and rear ends. There is still the need, however, to be able to define where the defect in need of repair is located on the car. Since the early electric MU cars came from the same builders that built streetcars, the system already in use was adopted, and each car had a No.1 and No.2 end, the No.1 end being defined as the end with the electrical cabinet in the cab, or if no cabinet, the end with the main circuit breaker.

Few people have trouble identifying the front end of a steam locomotive, and the right and left side naturally follow, but when diesel road switchers were introduced their bi-directional nature lead to confusion. This lead the ICC to require that locomotives have the front clearly designated with the letter F stenciled on the frame, again for the purpose of defect reporting, and this requirement eventually applied to the MU fleets also.

Dennis Storzek

maynard stowe

Actually, the time I rode the Welsh Highland half the trip was made cab first and half was made smokestack first. In either case the front engine was running forward and the back engine was running backward. It is a steam “push me pull you” except reversed.
Maynard Stowe

 1 - 12 of 12
More