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GATX Lines and Periods on reporting marks
Eric Thur
Would anyone know what year GATX removed the periods between the reporting mark letters and also the lines above and below?
I have looked up Richard Hendrickson's comments on GATX Tank cars but cannot get any information other that the Reporting mark Lines were "Early GATX Lettering".
Your response is as always appreciated.
Eric Thur
I have looked up Richard Hendrickson's comments on GATX Tank cars but cannot get any information other that the Reporting mark Lines were "Early GATX Lettering".
Your response is as always appreciated.
Eric Thur
Dave Parker
My photo collection (albeit meager compared to some) suggests that the lines and periods persisted into the mid-1930s. I have several photos dating to 1935-1942 that show a transitional scheme with no periods, but the horizontal lines remained. From 1950 on, I'd say both were gone, but others may have more WWII+ photos that could narrow things down more.
Hope this helps.
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Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA
Hope this helps.
--
Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA
Eric
I thought that was an AAR decision at some point -- to remove (i.e. no longer require) the periods.
Like the rule about horizontal lines above and below the reporting marks. Probably listed in ORERs.
On 2/25/2023 1:16 PM, Eric Thur wrote:
I thought that was an AAR decision at some point -- to remove (i.e. no longer require) the periods.
Like the rule about horizontal lines above and below the reporting marks. Probably listed in ORERs.
On 2/25/2023 1:16 PM, Eric Thur wrote:
Would anyone know what year GATX removed the periods between the reporting mark letters and also the lines above and below?
I have looked up Richard Hendrickson's comments on GATX Tank cars but cannot get any information other that the Reporting mark Lines were "Early GATX Lettering".
Your response is as always appreciated.
Eric Thur
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Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts
Steve SANDIFER
I have a 1956 photo of a ATSF stock car with the periods. It is a rarety, but. Santa Fe stopped painting the periods in 1938 if I remember correctly, so 18 years.
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On Sat, Feb 25, 2023 at 2:45 PM, Dave Parker via groups.io<spottab@...> wrote:My photo collection (albeit meager compared to some) suggests that the lines and periods persisted into the mid-1930s. I have several photos dating to 1935-1942 that show a transitional scheme with no periods, but the horizontal lines remained. From 1950 on, I'd say both were gone, but others may have more WWII+ photos that could narrow things down more.
Hope this helps.
--
Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA
Dave Parker
I should have noted that my response to Eric's query was specific to GATX, and shouldn't be extrapolated to other private owners. For example, UTLX began phasing out both the periods and horizontal lines about 1917, and both had disappeared by the early 1920s. The horizontal lines mandated by the ARA/AAR until ??? (somebody else will know when) apparently did not apply to the private owners, as many tank cars from the 1920s and 30s did not have them. There was some resistance to the horizontal lines on the part of some railroads as well, the NYCL being an example that leaps to mind.
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Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA
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Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA
Tony Thompson
Dave Parker wrote:I believe that the lines were a recommended practice, not a requirement. Guy Wilbur probably knows for sure. I also believe that the recommendation was dropped around 1952, with more and more railroads having stopped using them. But I don’t know a firm date.
I should have noted that my response to Eric's query was specific to GATX, and shouldn't be extrapolated to other private owners. For example, UTLX began phasing out both the periods and horizontal lines about 1917, and both had disappeared by the early 1920s. The horizontal lines mandated by the ARA/AAR until ??? (somebody else will know when) apparently did not apply to the private owners
Tony Thompson
tony@...
Dave Parker
On Mon, Feb 27, 2023 at 12:22 PM, Tony Thompson wrote:
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Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA
I believe that the lines were a recommended practice, not a requirement.Based on MCB proceedings of the time, my understanding is that the overall lettering scheme for freight cars was advanced to Standard in 1913. Two proposals for what became the "1920s" look failed in 1914 and 1915, in some (large?) measure due to resistance to the two horizontal bars bracketing the reporting marks. In 1916, a new standard was finally adopted, but the horizontal bars were a separate ballot measure which failed. In 1918, the final version (until 1927) was approved that included the bars, as documented in MCB Standard drawing 26. I have not unearthed anything to suggest that the bars were somehow separated as just a Recommended Practice, but Guy is certainly be the person who would know for certain. Ditto any subsequent relaxation of the Standard which would have occurred well after my mid-1930s focus.
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Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA
I browsed the GATX photos on my computer and noted the ones with dates that could help define the era in question for us.
Here are some highlights
GATX 417 with a reweigh date of 9-39 has lines, but not periods.
GATX 24218 with weigh date of 1-40. This car has no periods on GATX, has lines above and below the reporting marks.
GATX 15969 with a reweigh date of 8-50 and has not lines or periods.
On the other hand several of the fancy red Union Starch cars seemed to keep the periods longer. For example:
GATX 6719 with a reweigh date of GC 6-50 (Granite City, maybe Union Starch painted their own leased cars) has periods but no lines.
So, in general, it appears that GATX dropped periods circa 1940 and the lines circa 1950.
YMMV
Steve Hile
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Here are some highlights
GATX 417 with a reweigh date of 9-39 has lines, but not periods.
GATX 24218 with weigh date of 1-40. This car has no periods on GATX, has lines above and below the reporting marks.
GATX 15969 with a reweigh date of 8-50 and has not lines or periods.
On the other hand several of the fancy red Union Starch cars seemed to keep the periods longer. For example:
GATX 6719 with a reweigh date of GC 6-50 (Granite City, maybe Union Starch painted their own leased cars) has periods but no lines.
So, in general, it appears that GATX dropped periods circa 1940 and the lines circa 1950.
YMMV
Steve Hile
-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Tony Thompson
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2023 2:23 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] GATX Lines and Periods on reporting marks
Tony Thompson
tony@...
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Tony Thompson
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2023 2:23 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] GATX Lines and Periods on reporting marks
Dave Parker wrote:I believe that the lines were a recommended practice, not a requirement. Guy Wilbur probably knows for sure. I also believe that the recommendation was dropped around 1952, with more and more railroads having stopped using them. But I don’t know a firm date.
I should have noted that my response to Eric's query was specific to GATX, and shouldn't be extrapolated to other private owners. For example, UTLX began phasing out both the periods and horizontal lines about 1917, and both had disappeared by the early 1920s. The horizontal lines mandated by the ARA/AAR until ??? (somebody else will know when) apparently did not apply to the private owners
Tony Thompson
tony@...
Bill Kelly
I think maybe we should back up that 1950 date.
I'll see your two 1950s and raise you my four 1946-47s for the bars
disappearing.
From my collection:
GATX 970 weigh date 9-47 no periods or bars
GATX 6802 weigh date 7-46 no periods or bars
GATX 36190 weigh date 12-47 no periods or bars
GATX 63337 weigh date 12-47 no periods or bars
Later,
Bill Kelly
On Mon, 27 Feb 2023 19:59:40 -0600 "Steve and Barb Hile"
<shile@...> writes:
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I'll see your two 1950s and raise you my four 1946-47s for the bars
disappearing.
From my collection:
GATX 970 weigh date 9-47 no periods or bars
GATX 6802 weigh date 7-46 no periods or bars
GATX 36190 weigh date 12-47 no periods or bars
GATX 63337 weigh date 12-47 no periods or bars
Later,
Bill Kelly
On Mon, 27 Feb 2023 19:59:40 -0600 "Steve and Barb Hile"
<shile@...> writes:
I browsed the GATX photos on my computer and noted the ones with
dates that could help define the era in question for us.
Here are some highlights
GATX 417 with a reweigh date of 9-39 has lines, but not periods.
GATX 24218 with weigh date of 1-40. This car has no periods on
GATX, has lines above and below the reporting marks.
GATX 15969 with a reweigh date of 8-50 and has not lines or
periods.
On the other hand several of the fancy red Union Starch cars seemed
to keep the periods longer. For example:
GATX 6719 with a reweigh date of GC 6-50 (Granite City, maybe Union
Starch painted their own leased cars) has periods but no lines.
So, in general, it appears that GATX dropped periods circa 1940 and
the lines circa 1950.
YMMV
Steve Hile
Tony Thompson
Dave Parker wrote:Sure. But “standard” didn’t mean ”mandatory.” Lots of prototype photos show that lots of railroads varied lettering as they wished. The fact that a particular lettering feature was “standard” just showed you a good way to do it. The 1937 AAR box car design was a “standard,” but it was purchased with lots of variations, along with lots of “non-standard” box cars bought by those not liking the standard.
Based on MCB proceedings of the time, my understanding is that the overall lettering scheme for freight cars was advanced to Standard in 1913 . . . In 1918, the final version (until 1927) was approved that included the bars, as documented in MCB Standard drawing 26.
To return to the issue of the bars above and below reporting marks and numbers, there may have been a standard arrangement, but in fact car owners could and did adopt or discontinue them as they pleased. That’s why it’s relevant to find out when a particular owner, say GATX, made such a decision.
Tony Thompson
tony@...
Tony Thompson
I think maybe we should back up that 1950 date.Um, we aren’t equating weigh dates with paint dates, are we? Each CAN post-date the other, especially for tank cars.
I'll see your two 1950s and raise you my four 1946-47s for the bars
disappearing.
From my collection:
GATX 970 weigh date 9-47 no periods or bars
GATX 6802 weigh date 7-46 no periods or bars
GATX 36190 weigh date 12-47 no periods or bars
GATX 63337 weigh date 12-47 no periods or bars
Tony Thompson
tony@...
Bill Kelly
Tony,
No we are not. You are correct, tank cars can keep their same weigh date
for a very long time if not forever. I was using weigh dates to following
Steve's lead.
Later,
Bill Kelly
Tony wrote:
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No we are not. You are correct, tank cars can keep their same weigh date
for a very long time if not forever. I was using weigh dates to following
Steve's lead.
Later,
Bill Kelly
Tony wrote:
I think maybe we should back up that 1950 date.bars
I'll see your two 1950s and raise you my four 1946-47s for thedisappearing.Um, we arent equating weigh dates with paint dates, are we? Each
From my collection:
GATX 970 weigh date 9-47 no periods or bars
GATX 6802 weigh date 7-46 no periods or bars
GATX 36190 weigh date 12-47 no periods or bars
GATX 63337 weigh date 12-47 no periods or bars
CAN post-date the other, especially for tank cars.
Tony Thompson
tony@...