How close is close enough
Six months ago, my understanding of box cars were 40' & 50', wood or steel, single or double door. Now thanks to this group, a love of research and a desire for more accurate models has put me in a weird place mentally.
In the past, I would be just fine with an Accurail 50' DD box car. My dad had a special run of these done 20 or so years ago. I thought these looked great before, now I recognize they have the wrong roofs.
Is this close enough?
There are a number of 50' DD box cars that have been made including Athearn, Accurail, Robin Rail, Branchline, Kadee, Proto 2000 and plenty of others. The Proto 2000 car has decent sides and a proper roof, but the ends are wrong.
Is this close enough?
I know this is a personal decision and unless the car was actually modeled after your particular prototype, there will be variations.
Where do you draw the line?
This is just one of many projects that I am running into questions like this. I have to decide where is my line of acceptable vs modify vs design and 3d print vs just not modeling that series. I am just starting for my ideas as to where my line will be at, but in the mean time, I would like to get your input.
Thanks
Dave
On Feb 20, 2023, at 1:56 PM, Dave Wetterstroem <framemakers@...> wrote:
Six months ago, my understanding of box cars were 40' & 50', wood or steel, single or double door. Now thanks to this group, a love of research and a desire for more accurate models has put me in a weird place mentally.
In the past, I would be just fine with an Accurail 50' DD box car. My dad had a special run of these done 20 or so years ago. I thought these looked great before, now I recognize they have the wrong roofs.Is this close enough?
There are a number of 50' DD box cars that have been made including Athearn, Accurail, Robin Rail, Branchline, Kadee, Proto 2000 and plenty of others. The Proto 2000 car has decent sides and a proper roof, but the ends are wrong.
Is this close enough?
I know this is a personal decision and unless the car was actually modeled after your particular prototype, there will be variations.
Where do you draw the line?
This is just one of many projects that I am running into questions like this. I have to decide where is my line of acceptable vs modify vs design and 3d print vs just not modeling that series. I am just starting for my ideas as to where my line will be at, but in the mean time, I would like to get your input.
Thanks
Dave
<s-l1600.jpg><CO-6210.jpg>
--
Brian J. Carlson, P.E.
Cheektowaga NY
Six months ago, my understanding of box cars were 40' & 50', wood or steel, single or double door. Now thanks to this group, a love of research and a desire for more accurate models has put me in a weird place mentally.
In the past, I would be just fine with an Accurail 50' DD box car. My dad had a special run of these done 20 or so years ago. I thought these looked great before, now I recognize they have the wrong roofs.
Is this close enough?
There are a number of 50' DD box cars that have been made including Athearn, Accurail, Robin Rail, Branchline, Kadee, Proto 2000 and plenty of others. The Proto 2000 car has decent sides and a proper roof, but the ends are wrong.
Is this close enough?
I know this is a personal decision and unless the car was actually modeled after your particular prototype, there will be variations.
Where do you draw the line?
This is just one of many projects that I am running into questions like this. I have to decide where is my line of acceptable vs modify vs design and 3d print vs just not modeling that series. I am just starting for my ideas as to where my line will be at, but in the mean time, I would like to get your input.
Thanks
Dave
<s-l1600.jpg>
<CO-6210.jpg>
Dave,
What “close enough” means is a very personal thing. YOU have to be happy, not me. And that target may change for you over time.
Looking at your current dilemma, this car, with the incorrect roof (which I wouldn’t realize until it was pointed out to me) would count as a good stand-in for me (if it were the correct era). My personal approach would be the following (followed by a caveat).
- Remove any molded on grab irons and ladders and replace with free standing details
- Add more accurate underbody details, including brake piping and levels and the underfloor chain storage tubes
- Remove molded on brake wheel gearbox, chain, rod and replace with stand-alone details
- Add HiTech brake hoses
- Add uncoupling levers
- Kadee semi-scale couplers (#178)
- 1.088 tread wheels
- Correct reweigh for modeling date (this car is too new for my 6-44 date, so I would reject it 😉)
Caveat – There are lots of models in my possession that lack some of these upgrades. Some are worth going back to and “fixing” but others may never get those mods. Some of those are models that I have received from other modelers that I want to preserve “as is”. Others are models I bought before I became more aware of how to find out what might be more accurate. A good example of the latter would be the Intermountain PRR G24 gondola that I had. Intermountain made these composite gondolas with laser cut wood inserts for the sides. It made into a very nice model. Only one problem for me. PRR had converted all of those cars to steel sheathing by my 1944 era. So the car sat around until I think it was John Golden suggested that it was a good model for an ABC gon. And that’s what it became. And I ordered ANOTHER Intermountain kit and converted it to steel sides with brass inserts and painted it for a PRR G24.
Regards,
Bruce
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL
From: <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Dave Wetterstroem <framemakers@...>
Reply-To: "main@RealSTMFC.groups.io" <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Date: Monday, February 20, 2023 at 12:56 PM
To: "main@RealSTMFC.groups.io" <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: [EXT] [RealSTMFC] How close is close enough
|
CAUTION: Email Originated Outside of Auburn. |
Six months ago, my understanding of box cars were 40' & 50', wood or steel, single or double door. Now thanks to this group, a love of research and a desire for more accurate models has put me in a weird place mentally.
In the past, I would be just fine with an Accurail 50' DD box car. My dad had a special run of these done 20 or so years ago. I thought these looked great before, now I recognize they have the wrong roofs.
Is this close enough?
There are a number of 50' DD box cars that have been made including Athearn, Accurail, Robin Rail, Branchline, Kadee, Proto 2000 and plenty of others. The Proto 2000 car has decent sides and a proper roof, but the ends are wrong.
Is this close enough?
I know this is a personal decision and unless the car was actually modeled after your particular prototype, there will be variations.
Where do you draw the line?
This is just one of many projects that I am running into questions like this. I have to decide where is my line of acceptable vs modify vs design and 3d print vs just not modeling that series. I am just starting for my ideas as to where my line will be at, but in the mean time, I would like to get your input.
Thanks
Dave
We all choose where that line is located. I’ve never forgotten, back when I occasionally built models for NMRA contests, to be in the contest room once talking to a couple of other contestants, and one said, “I’m starting a layout,” and the other said, “Well, I guess we won’t be seeing you in the contest room any more.” At first I was startled by this, then quickly realized the truth of it. Very few of us can “do it all."Dave Wetterstroem wrote:Six months ago, my understanding of box cars were 40' & 50', wood or steel, single or double door. Now thanks to this group, a love of research and a desire for more accurate models has put me in a weird place mentally. Is this close enough?
I know this is a personal decision and unless the car was actually modeled after your particular prototype, there will be variations.
Where do you draw the line?
For me at least, coupling distance between cars and realistic weathering go a long way. I can see them from far away So, Sargent couplers (Kadee has some near to scale ones too, as Bruce suggested). Semi-scale or P87 wheels. Careful paint and decals.
Everything beyond that is less important, more about personal satisfaction. My focus is on the Soo, which had many distinctive "sawtooth" boxcars. I'm not happy with a stand-in - you can see that from across the room. The Milwaukee Roads rib side box cars are pretty distinctive - but the difference between the various models of them are small, in my eyes.
I do make an effort on the details, in line with Bruce's suggestions below, most of the time. Molded on grabs are better than poorly done wire grabs (to me). And i do try to get the right brake wheel on there - but I'm not too bothered if it's the wrong one. Paint n decals n weathering are my focus. I can see them from a distance.
I enjoy building complex kits. I don't really enjoy carving grabs and brake housings off. Plastic stirrups are more visibly objectionable, and easier to replace. So my fleet will be mostly resin, but yeah there will be some molded on grabs here n there.
Once I get to building a layout, scenery, good looking track, good lighting are going to the focus, of what will likely end up being a very small layout.
Stephan
It depends very much on the scale of your layout - as in, how many cars, locos, trains, buildings, time.
My layout is 25'x30' based in central West Virginia on the C&O. I figure I will need about 400 cars on the layout with 75% of those being hoppers. This means that the other 100 cars will be box cars, covered hoppers, gondolas, flat cars, reefers and tank cars. I have been in the hobby off and on for nearly 50 years and my dad was also a serious modeler. When he passed I inherited his collection. The thing is, most of his stuff was built in the 80's-90's and doesn't have the detail level of what today's offerings are. I don't mind the cast on grabs as much as I do the oversized door hardware. So I have been upgrading models a bit at a time. Since I will only be having about 50 C&O cars that aren't designed for carrying coal, I want those cars to be fairly accurate.
I also am pretty big into 3d printing and have made several passenger car sides as well as a C&O 3-bay welded hopper. I mention that only because if there is a car that I want and there is nothing close, I do have the ability to design and print them myself.
Dave
There are certain "correct details" that are more obvious than others. I'll give a
few examples to improve understanding ... cut levers, end numbers, metal drop
steps, see thru roof walks, scale sized details, underbody details, and even stuff
like lettering completeness/accuracy. So what you spend your time on can make
a big difference (be noticeable) ... or not.
After the above there is the whole aspect of "what are you interested in?". This
can be a very wide ranging aspect or it can have "focus". For example, if you
are more interested in Ops where reliability is king rather than prototypical
accuracy ... then you might be making decisions such as "I'm not going to use
semi-scale couplers" (yes, they look better, no they don't operate as easily ...
especially with respect to how easy it is or isn't to use a coupler pick or when
there is any curvature to the track.
As others have said "it's really a matter of what -you- want to do".
I will say this - about a decade ago (more?) I realized that if I'd known before
what I know now ... that I could have been building prototypically accurate
and visually stunning freight cars all along ... 5 to 10 a year ... and by now I'd
have enough to populate my layout with all great cars. Sadly, I can remember
those days about 10 to 15 years ago when many of my friends were starting
to build resin cars and me saying to myself "those are nice but I don't have the
time to spend" ... when actually it was a very short-sighted statement. Now
I'm in my late 70's, building a layout ... and don't have the time I had even
when I was working - to spend on building freight cars. *Sigh* I -did- have
the time ... I just didn't have the "value system".
- Jim in the PNW
My wife and I were visiting the Pendon Museum, in Oxfordshire, which includes an exquisite operating model railway (Pendon Museum, bringing the past to life - Abingdon, Oxfordshire). A gentleman standing next to us heaved a big sigh, and said “now I have to go home and tear out my entire model railway and start over.”
There is museum quality and there is good enough. I’ll never be able to build museum-quality models, but I can certainly build models that are good enough. And remember W. Allen McClelland’s “three-foot rule”.
Jim
Scott Haycock
On 02/20/2023 5:16 PM Jim and Barbara van Gaasbeek <jvgbvg@...> wrote:
My wife and I were visiting the Pendon Museum, in Oxfordshire, which includes an exquisite operating model railway (Pendon Museum, bringing the past to life - Abingdon, Oxfordshire). A gentleman standing next to us heaved a big sigh, and said “now I have to go home and tear out my entire model railway and start over.”
There is museum quality and there is good enough. I’ll never be able to build museum-quality models, but I can certainly build models that are good enough. And remember W. Allen McClelland’s “three-foot rule”.
Jim
I'm going to disagree with most of the items on Bruce's list. First off recognize that the Accurail line is intended to be 'layout quality' cars for operators, specifically devoid of the fiddly bits that tend to break off and get lost with handling. That's just the nature of the beast. However, Accurail cars are also devoid of the toylike compromises made in the fifties and sixties, such as opening doors with the giant 'claws' to hold them on an oversize track, so they blend in well with more accurate models.Looking at your current dilemma, this car, with the incorrect roof (which I wouldn’t realize until it was pointed out to me) would count as a good stand-in for me (if it were the correct era). My personal approach would be the following (followed by a caveat).
- Remove any molded on grab irons and ladders and replace with free standing details
- Add more accurate underbody details, including brake piping and levels and the underfloor chain storage tubes
- Remove molded on brake wheel gearbox, chain, rod and replace with stand-alone details
- Add HiTech brake hoses
- Add uncoupling levers
- Kadee semi-scale couplers (#178)
- 1.088 tread wheels
- Correct reweigh for modeling date (this car is too new for my 6-44 date, so I would reject it 😉)
Since the roof is apparently incorrect for this prototype, and the molded on roofs on Accurail cars are a challenge to change, I would simply give it a light coat of weathering so it blends in and put it in service. Change the wheels if you want, that's quick, but use the time that all those other upgrades would take to build the layout, or build resin kits that are closer to correct.. You'll be amazed how quickly this car just gets lost in the crowd. Then, sometime in the future when someone comes out with the perfect model, pull it off the layout and donate it to the local club, or Cub Scout pack. At that point it will have served its purpose as a 'stand in'.
Dennis Storzek
--
Ted Larson
trainweb.org/mhrr/ -------- NASG.org -------- https://www.nasg.org/Clubs/RegionsMinnesota.php
GN in 1965
On 21 Feb 2023, at 00:16, Jim and Barbara van Gaasbeek <jvgbvg@...> wrote:
My wife and I were visiting the Pendon Museum, in Oxfordshire, which includes an exquisite operating model railway (Pendon Museum, bringing the past to life - Abingdon, Oxfordshire). A gentleman standing next to us heaved a big sigh, and said “now I have to go home and tear out my entire model railway and start over.”
There is museum quality and there is good enough. I’ll never be able to build museum-quality models, but I can certainly build models that are good enough. And remember W. Allen McClelland’s “three-foot rule”.
Jim
Allen McClelland provides some of the best advice in the hobby in the first couple of paragraphs of his V&O book. He is known for coining "good enough" within the hobby.
Working with thousands of customers, perfection is admirable, but there is always a cost. If one chooses to do rolling stock or engines, there is simply not enough remaining time to take it through the entire layout. I've seen a few capable of doing this, but their layout became a full time job for a long period of time. Most of us can't allocate that much time.
And as the number of full size layouts is contracting readily, I'm watching modelers embrace a hybrid between a module and diorama, with the latter looking much like how military modelers do it on a square foot. Much focus on hyper-detailing and little emphasis on operations, often no movement at all.
Kevin
NGMC
Philadelphia, Penna.
On 02/20/2023 9:33 PM EST Dennis Storzek via groups.io <soolinehistory@...> wrote:On Mon, Feb 20, 2023 at 01:52 PM, Bruce Smith wrote:
I'm going to disagree with most of the items on Bruce's list. First off recognize that the Accurail line is intended to be 'layout quality' cars for operators, specifically devoid of the fiddly bits that tend to break off and get lost with handling. That's just the nature of the beast. However, Accurail cars are also devoid of the toylike compromises made in the fifties and sixties, such as opening doors with the giant 'claws' to hold them on an oversize track, so they blend in well with more accurate models.Looking at your current dilemma, this car, with the incorrect roof (which I wouldn’t realize until it was pointed out to me) would count as a good stand-in for me (if it were the correct era). My personal approach would be the following (followed by a caveat).
- Remove any molded on grab irons and ladders and replace with free standing details
- Add more accurate underbody details, including brake piping and levels and the underfloor chain storage tubes
- Remove molded on brake wheel gearbox, chain, rod and replace with stand-alone details
- Add HiTech brake hoses
- Add uncoupling levers
- Kadee semi-scale couplers (#178)
- 1.088 tread wheels
- Correct reweigh for modeling date (this car is too new for my 6-44 date, so I would reject it 😉)
Since the roof is apparently incorrect for this prototype, and the molded on roofs on Accurail cars are a challenge to change, I would simply give it a light coat of weathering so it blends in and put it in service. Change the wheels if you want, that's quick, but use the time that all those other upgrades would take to build the layout, or build resin kits that are closer to correct.. You'll be amazed how quickly this car just gets lost in the crowd. Then, sometime in the future when someone comes out with the perfect model, pull it off the layout and donate it to the local club, or Cub Scout pack. At that point it will have served its purpose as a 'stand in'.
Dennis Storzek
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2023 8:22 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: [External] Re: [RealSTMFC] How close is close enough
Lot’s of great advice, I usually refer back to Calvin and Hobbs
Chuck Cover
Santa Fe, NM
PRR’s Shamokin Branch
Mason City Iowa