Topics

inside running rail of the curve will be accompanied by an addition guard rail


Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
 

Hi List Members,
 
Sometimes when I am looking at images of steam era freight cars on sharp curves, I will see that the inside running rail of the curve will be accompanied by an addition guard rail.
 
One example can be seen in the image linked below, both track sections have the guard rail applied against the inside running rail of the curve...
 
 
Anoth example can be seen at the link below...
 
 
Can anyone tell me why this is done? I'm going to guess it helps keep the cars on the rails while traversing the curve, but right off the bat, I don't see how that would work.
 
Thanks in advance for your thoughts
 
Claus Schlund
 
 
 


Tony Thompson
 

Claus Schlund wrote:

Anoth example can be seen at the link below...
 
 
Can anyone tell me why this is done? I'm going to guess it helps keep the cars on the rails while traversing the curve, but right off the bat, I don't see how that would work.

     This sharp curve into the oil dealer facility looks like something model railroaders would do <grin> -- though most would omit the guard rail.

Tony Thompson




mopacfirst
 

I've seen that in other places.  It was probably more common in this era just because there were more industry tracks with very sharp curves.

It stands to reason that the back of the wheel flange would contact this rail, if the truck were to start to fail to follow the curve.  This is probably a more effective restraint than the opposite wheel on the opposite rail, which is of course also a restraining lateral force in the same direction as this guardrail is exerting, while the truck is rotating with respect to the body of the car.

Ron Merrick


James SANDIFER
 

A railroad wheel is solid, but with a slight slope so that the outside of the wheel is smaller in circumference than the inside by the flange. A tight corner like this pulls the wheel to the outside of the curve and could cause the outside wheel flange to climb the rail. The guard rail on the inside rail of the curve keeps the wheel from going too far out and derailing.

 

 

J. Stephen Sandifer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2020 8:29 PM
To: STMFC <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: [RealSTMFC] inside running rail of the curve will be accompanied by an addition guard rail

 

Hi List Members,

 

Sometimes when I am looking at images of steam era freight cars on sharp curves, I will see that the inside running rail of the curve will be accompanied by an addition guard rail.

 

One example can be seen in the image linked below, both track sections have the guard rail applied against the inside running rail of the curve...

 

 

Another example can be seen at the link below...

 

 

Can anyone tell me why this is done? I'm going to guess it helps keep the cars on the rails while traversing the curve, but right off the bat, I don't see how that would work.

 

Thanks in advance for your thoughts

 

Claus Schlund

 

 

 


Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
 

Thanks Ron and James, now I understand!
 
Claus Schlund
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2020 9:52 PM
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] inside running rail of the curve will be accompanied by an addition guard rail

A railroad wheel is solid, but with a slight slope so that the outside of the wheel is smaller in circumference than the inside by the flange. A tight corner like this pulls the wheel to the outside of the curve and could cause the outside wheel flange to climb the rail. The guard rail on the inside rail of the curve keeps the wheel from going too far out and derailing.

 

 

J. Stephen Sandifer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2020 8:29 PM
To: STMFC <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: [RealSTMFC] inside running rail of the curve will be accompanied by an addition guard rail

 

Hi List Members,

 

Sometimes when I am looking at images of steam era freight cars on sharp curves, I will see that the inside running rail of the curve will be accompanied by an addition guard rail.

 

One example can be seen in the image linked below, both track sections have the guard rail applied against the inside running rail of the curve...

 

 

Another example can be seen at the link below...

 

 

Can anyone tell me why this is done? I'm going to guess it helps keep the cars on the rails while traversing the curve, but right off the bat, I don't see how that would work.

 

Thanks in advance for your thoughts

 

Claus Schlund

 

 

 


Matt Goodman
 

A bit more information from a Railway Maintenance And Maintenance Cyclopedia (1929) is attached. There’s a couple more pages of detail, if you’re interested in various rules, practices and vendors of curve guard rails.  In short, what Ron and James said. 



Matt Goodman
Columbus, Ohio

Sent from my mobile

On Jul 23, 2020, at 10:16 PM, Claus Schlund &#92;(HGM&#92;) <claus@...> wrote:


Thanks Ron and James, now I understand!
 
Claus Schlund
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2020 9:52 PM
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] inside running rail of the curve will be accompanied by an addition guard rail

A railroad wheel is solid, but with a slight slope so that the outside of the wheel is smaller in circumference than the inside by the flange. A tight corner like this pulls the wheel to the outside of the curve and could cause the outside wheel flange to climb the rail. The guard rail on the inside rail of the curve keeps the wheel from going too far out and derailing.

 

 

J. Stephen Sandifer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2020 8:29 PM
To: STMFC <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: [RealSTMFC] inside running rail of the curve will be accompanied by an addition guard rail

 

Hi List Members,

 

Sometimes when I am looking at images of steam era freight cars on sharp curves, I will see that the inside running rail of the curve will be accompanied by an addition guard rail.

 

One example can be seen in the image linked below, both track sections have the guard rail applied against the inside running rail of the curve...

 

 

Another example can be seen at the link below...

 

 

Can anyone tell me why this is done? I'm going to guess it helps keep the cars on the rails while traversing the curve, but right off the bat, I don't see how that would work.

 

Thanks in advance for your thoughts

 

Claus Schlund

 

 

 


Jim and Barbara van Gaasbeek
 

I’ not so sure.  Look at the trackage at The Harlem Transfer Company:

 

http://members.trainweb.com/bedt/indloco/ht.html#:~:text=The%20Harlem%20Transfer%20Company%20was%20located%20at%20Park,other%20railroads%20would%20jointly%20operate%20in%20the%20facility.

 

The majority of the curves, and the curved-frog turnouts, had 90-foot and 104-foot radii, but no guard rails on the inside rail.  There may be other reasons why the HTC could get away with such absurd track radii without guard rails.

 

 

Jim van Gaasbeek

Irvine, Ca

 

 


Ted Schnepf
 

Hello,

I believe from the photos they are "self guarding frogs", the guard rails are built into the frogs , not needing a separate guard rails.

Ted Schnepf
126 Will Scarlet,
Elgin, Ill. 60120


847=697-5353

On Thursday, July 23, 2020, 11:02:14 PM CDT, Jim and Barbara van Gaasbeek <jvgbvg@...> wrote:


I’ not so sure.  Look at the trackage at The Harlem Transfer Company:

 

http://members.trainweb.com/bedt/indloco/ht.html#:~:text=The%20Harlem%20Transfer%20Company%20was%20located%20at%20Park,other%20railroads%20would%20jointly%20operate%20in%20the%20facility.

 

The majority of the curves, and the curved-frog turnouts, had 90-foot and 104-foot radii, but no guard rails on the inside rail.  There may be other reasons why the HTC could get away with such absurd track radii without guard rails.

 

 

Jim van Gaasbeek

Irvine, Ca

 

 


Jim and Barbara van Gaasbeek
 

Ted,

 

Yes, I mis-wrote.  Some of the frogs have guard rails, some don’t.  But none of the curved track has a guard rail on the inner rail, even though the curves are as tight as 90 feet radius.

 

Ji van Gaasbeek

Irvine, California

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Ted Schnepf
Sent: Friday, July 24, 2020 7:22 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] inside running rail of the curve will be accompanied by an addition guard rail

 

Hello,

I believe from the photos they are "self guarding frogs", the guard rails are built into the frogs , not needing a separate guard rails.

Ted Schnepf
126 Will Scarlet,
Elgin, Ill. 60120


847=697-5353

On Thursday, July 23, 2020, 11:02:14 PM CDT, Jim and Barbara van Gaasbeek <jvgbvg@...> wrote:

 

 

I’ not so sure.  Look at the trackage at The Harlem Transfer Company:

 

http://members.trainweb.com/bedt/indloco/ht.html#:~:text=The%20Harlem%20Transfer%20Company%20was%20located%20at%20Park,other%20railroads%20would%20jointly%20operate%20in%20the%20facility.

 

The majority of the curves, and the curved-frog turnouts, had 90-foot and 104-foot radii, but no guard rails on the inside rail.  There may be other reasons why the HTC could get away with such absurd track radii without guard rails.

 

 

Jim van Gaasbeek

Irvine, Ca

 

 


Dennis Storzek
 

On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 09:02 PM, Jim and Barbara van Gaasbeek wrote:
There may be other reasons why the HTC could get away with such absurd track radii without guard rails.
There was... the size of their motive power. Freight cars of this era were fine with those tight curves, and the Harlem Transfer used a boxcab diesel with trucks that were hardly any longer wheelbase. Even before the diesel the motive power was a tiny 0-4-0. But mainline railroads tended to use larger power for local switching; six couple and smaller eight couple power being common. These long rigid wheelbases had problems with tight curves. The first modification needed was to widen the gauge... as much as 1-1/2 or even two inches, and this has been done. How can I tell? The standard flangeway for guarded curves on 4'-8 1/8" gauge track is just under 2". This is so small that it is not obtainable with standard rail' the bases interfere with each other and the base of the guard rail needs to be sheared. However, when the gauge is widened the guard rail moves in tandem with the opposite running rail. The photos presented have the guard rail so far from the running rail that there is room for spikes in between.  The gauge has been widened at least 1-1/2" to accommodate steam locomotives.

Dennis Storzek


Matt Goodman
 

Dennis, as usual, shares interesting information. Enough so that I went back to the Cyc., which mentioned the repositioning of the low (inner) side guard rail relative to the high side running rail (the gauge between the guard and opposite rail being 4’ 6 3/4”). It goes on to say for sharper curves, a guard rail may be applied to the inside of the high side rail, with the same relative gauging. 

For the sharpest curves, a third guard rail may be applied to the inside of the low side rail - this one to support overhanging blind driver tires.

All of the pictured applications used lighter rail for the guard rail, with special chairs that both braced the guard rail and raised guard railhead's height to the the same plane as the running rail. They also allowed the base of the guard rail to overlap the base of the running rail - no shearing required in that case. One additional guard rail implementation called for the guard rail to be laid on it’s side to take advantage of increased section strength (deeper girder) and plenty of meat in the sideways railhead to accommodate wear. 

All of these descriptions had a caveat that all guard rail use was considered objectionable due to increased costs (material and maintenance), so should be used only in special cases.

Matt 

On Jul 24, 2020, at 2:15 PM, Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...> wrote:

On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 09:02 PM, Jim and Barbara van Gaasbeek wrote:
There may be other reasons why the HTC could get away with such absurd track radii without guard rails.
There was... the size of their motive power. Freight cars of this era were fine with those tight curves, and the Harlem Transfer used a boxcab diesel with trucks that were hardly any longer wheelbase. Even before the diesel the motive power was a tiny 0-4-0. But mainline railroads tended to use larger power for local switching; six couple and smaller eight couple power being common. These long rigid wheelbases had problems with tight curves. The first modification needed was to widen the gauge... as much as 1-1/2 or even two inches, and this has been done. How can I tell? The standard flangeway for guarded curves on 4'-8 1/8" gauge track is just under 2". This is so small that it is not obtainable with standard rail' the bases interfere with each other and the base of the guard rail needs to be sheared. However, when the gauge is widened the guard rail moves in tandem with the opposite running rail. The photos presented have the guard rail so far from the running rail that there is room for spikes in between.  The gauge has been widened at least 1-1/2" to accommodate steam locomotives.

Dennis Storzek


Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
 


Hi everyone,
 
Thanks very much for all the great and thoroughly informative replies made on this topic
 
Now that I understand the issues, I have a spot on my model railroad where the application of such a guard rail would be thoroughly appropriate, and I'd like to do so. My question now becomes, has anyone done this, and if so, how did you attach the guard rail so it would stay put? I'm thinking that gluing it to the ties means gluing it to slippery engineering plastic, and most glues don't do a very good job with this. Furthermore, in my case, this work will be done on an NTRAK module that travels to shows as part of a modular layout, thus it is subject to constant twisting and flexing and heavy-handed rail cleaning by others, and I want the rail to be secure as can be.
 
Note that in my case, I will be retrofitting the guard rail onto an existing section of track, in case that was not already clear.
 
Suggestions?
 
Thanks in advance
 
Claus Schlund
 
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, July 24, 2020 3:04 PM
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] inside running rail of the curve will be accompanied by an addition guard rail

Dennis, as usual, shares interesting information. Enough so that I went back to the Cyc., which mentioned the repositioning of the low (inner) side guard rail relative to the high side running rail (the gauge between the guard and opposite rail being 4’ 6 3/4”). It goes on to say for sharper curves, a guard rail may be applied to the inside of the high side rail, with the same relative gauging. 

For the sharpest curves, a third guard rail may be applied to the inside of the low side rail - this one to support overhanging blind driver tires.

All of the pictured applications used lighter rail for the guard rail, with special chairs that both braced the guard rail and raised guard railhead's height to the the same plane as the running rail. They also allowed the base of the guard rail to overlap the base of the running rail - no shearing required in that case. One additional guard rail implementation called for the guard rail to be laid on it’s side to take advantage of increased section strength (deeper girder) and plenty of meat in the sideways railhead to accommodate wear. 

All of these descriptions had a caveat that all guard rail use was considered objectionable due to increased costs (material and maintenance), so should be used only in special cases.

Matt 

On Jul 24, 2020, at 2:15 PM, Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...> wrote:

On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 09:02 PM, Jim and Barbara van Gaasbeek wrote:
There may be other reasons why the HTC could get away with such absurd track radii without guard rails.
There was... the size of their motive power. Freight cars of this era were fine with those tight curves, and the Harlem Transfer used a boxcab diesel with trucks that were hardly any longer wheelbase. Even before the diesel the motive power was a tiny 0-4-0. But mainline railroads tended to use larger power for local switching; six couple and smaller eight couple power being common. These long rigid wheelbases had problems with tight curves. The first modification needed was to widen the gauge... as much as 1-1/2 or even two inches, and this has been done. How can I tell? The standard flangeway for guarded curves on 4'-8 1/8" gauge track is just under 2". This is so small that it is not obtainable with standard rail' the bases interfere with each other and the base of the guard rail needs to be sheared. However, when the gauge is widened the guard rail moves in tandem with the opposite running rail. The photos presented have the guard rail so far from the running rail that there is room for spikes in between.  The gauge has been widened at least 1-1/2" to accommodate steam locomotives.

Dennis Storzek


Larry Buell
 

Dennis Storzek:

In the late 1980s we had a new customer on the Illinois Division that wanted rail access.  So, they lined up an approved contractor to build the track up to the property line and we , the Santa Fe, built and installed the turnout and connecting track.  After the industry track was completed, it was inspected by one of my employes and put into service.  Shortly thereafter, the Local crew drew me aside complaining that the wheels were really squealing going around one of the curves in the plant.  I went out and string lined the curve.  Turns out that the track curve was about 27-28 degrees (or between a 200-212 ft. radius). The Santa Fe limited the degree of curve for new track to 12 degrees (479 ft. radius) at that time. The local was using 4-wheel trucks under the locomotives for switching; luckily, they never went on the ground.  I contacted the contractor and informed them that they would have to realign the trackage, which was buried for the unloading of lumber flats. 

Larry Buell