Interpreting Copeland interchange data


Dave Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

tgregmrtn@... wrote:
All,

As I exhibited in TKM the PRR handled the Lions share of the hauls
for all perishable produce traffic from the Mississippi east, nearly
the sum of the NKP and Erie together, for most of the 50's (and
Likely before) until the traffic dwindled to truck and TOFC business.
Can you provide any proofs that the traffic was indeed "from the Mississippi
east" and not, say, "from Cleveland and/or Buffalo southeast"?

I don't doubt the tonnage... I doubt the ton miles.

Dave Nelson


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Dave Nelson wrote:
Can you provide any proofs that the traffic was indeed "from the Mississippi
east" and not, say, "from Cleveland and/or Buffalo southeast"?

I don't doubt the tonnage... I doubt the ton miles.
The data tabulated by Bruce look like carloads, and thus are neither tons nor ton-miles.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Bruce Smith
 

On Mar 2, 2006, at 11:53 AM, Anthony Thompson wrote:
The data tabulated by Bruce look like carloads, and thus are
neither tons nor ton-miles.
Just to clarify - the data was provided by Greg Martin, who in turn got if from?

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

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Greg Martin
 

Tony, Malcom and all,

The information (abrievated, read the entire article) Bruce provided was from my article in TKM and information gathered by Jim Singer (BRHS). The information contained in this article was an accumulation of data from ICC records on cars HANDLED by various railroads by region. Some are obviously origin traffic but also destination traffic, by STCC. The NYC information was provided to the ICC for the NYC SYSTEM roads, unlike the reporting from SP, TNO, SSW for example. It was from all areas not just east-west traffic. But the numbers are what they are.

Tony mentions various PFE memo's in CSRM with reference to "short hauling the PRR", once again the PFE didn't route cars, consignees did, they were simply a car management arm of three western carriers, they had no ability to make or negotiate rates (unlike the ATSF), they simply were a fleet management company. They lived and died on per-diem rates of cars, which were all very negotiable. One thing I have learned being in the business and working with fleet management companies both private and railroad controlled, when pre-diem rates go down, fleet managers whine, snibble and write memos...So I take these notes with a grain of salt... 3^)

The railroads hate per-diem, it is a cost accounting system to recoup the cost of a car's expense on a daily basis. With regard to pre-diem, two things never changed the miles to destination and the hours in a day, one thing that often changed was the amount a railroad was willing to pay a car owner, be it a private car or a railroad controlled car. That is when the whining and snibbling and memos always seemed to start... Reefers were among the highest(meat reefers where the higher of the two) in the industry and NO railroad wanted an expensive car on their road empty or loaded any longer than necessary as explained in the article...

Greg Martin

-----Original Message-----
From: Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 13:39:00 -0800
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Interpreting Copeland interchange data


Malcolm Laughlin wrote:
The wildest dreams of the red team ?

In the late 50's-early 60's the NYC had at least three daily trainloads
of perishables east from chicago and St. Louis.
And PRR couldn't touch us for service to New York and New England.
I too wondered about Greg Martin's statistics. I would very much
doubt that PRR got long-haul perishables to the extent of Greg's
number, but of course would have handled a great deal of local
perishables. Their service area in major cities like Philadelphia would
of course get them a lot of carloads of not only western but
southeastern produce. I note he omits B&O as well as NYC from his
listing. And equalling the sum of NKP and Erie means what? Considering
the PRR total carloads annually, compared to Erie and NKP, it's obvious
PRR had a far smaller percentage of total traffic in perishables
relative to those two.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history




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Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Greg Martin wrote:
Tony mentions various PFE memo's in CSRM with reference to "short hauling the PRR", once again the PFE didn't route cars, consignees did, they were simply a car management arm of three western carriers, they had no ability to make or negotiate rates (unlike the ATSF), they simply were a fleet management company.
Entirely true, as I've said; but their agents worked closely with shippers and would certainly have tried to "guide" shippers. The PFE car service manager I interviewed (Pete Holst), who had been a rep or supervised reps for years, said that probably not more than 10 or 20 percent of shippers insisted on doing their own routing.

They lived and died on per-diem rates of cars, which were all very negotiable. One thing I have learned being in the business and working with fleet management companies both private and railroad controlled, when pre-diem rates go down, fleet managers whine, snibble and write memos...So I take these notes with a grain of salt... 3^)
Greg, get a grip. We are talking pre-1960, when reefers were on mileage, not per diem; and per diem in those days was most certainly NOT negotiable. Don't generalize from present-day experience.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history