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Need help / GM&O 17000 series boxcars
Todd Sullivan
Fenton,
A little more data. I checked my January 1952 ORER, and the GM7O had 6 ex-Alton 17000 series boxcars listed. They were not big cars: 12'-1" at the eaves, 12'-11" over the running board and 2730 cuft.. By comparison, the 1937 AAR standard boxcar was about 14'-8" over the running board and 3712cuft.
Todd Sullivan
A little more data. I checked my January 1952 ORER, and the GM7O had 6 ex-Alton 17000 series boxcars listed. They were not big cars: 12'-1" at the eaves, 12'-11" over the running board and 2730 cuft.. By comparison, the 1937 AAR standard boxcar was about 14'-8" over the running board and 3712cuft.
Todd Sullivan
Thanks Todd, I’m looking for that photo
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On Sep 17, 2022, at 8:22 PM, Todd Sullivan via groups.io <sullivant41@...> wrote:
Fenton,
A little more data. I checked my January 1952 ORER, and the GM7O had 6 ex-Alton 17000 series boxcars listed. They were not big cars: 12'-1" at the eaves, 12'-11" over the running board and 2730 cuft.. By comparison, the 1937 AAR standard boxcar was about 14'-8" over the running board and 3712cuft.
Todd Sullivan
Ray Breyer feels that these were 1905 wooden cars rebuilt with radial roofs and some version of dreadnaught ends. We are still looking
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Thanks for your input
On Sep 17, 2022, at 8:22 PM, Srrfan1401 <srrfan1401@...> wrote:
Thanks Todd, I’m looking for that photoOn Sep 17, 2022, at 8:22 PM, Todd Sullivan via groups.io <sullivant41@...> wrote:Fenton,
A little more data. I checked my January 1952 ORER, and the GM7O had 6 ex-Alton 17000 series boxcars listed. They were not big cars: 12'-1" at the eaves, 12'-11" over the running board and 2730 cuft.. By comparison, the 1937 AAR standard boxcar was about 14'-8" over the running board and 3712cuft.
Todd Sullivan
Ed, thank you so much for your excellent response. I’m getting the picture now that by 1953 there weren’t many of these cars left. But they were wood cars with radial roofs and some kind of dreadnaught ends. I think I’ll go back to Bob’s phots to see if he has a GM &O photo of these cars
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I’ll keep looking and thanks again
Fenton
On Sep 17, 2022, at 8:25 PM, O Fenton Wells via groups.io <srrfan1401@...> wrote:
Ray Breyer feels that these were 1905 wooden cars rebuilt with radial roofs and some version of dreadnaught ends. We are still lookingThanks for your inputOn Sep 17, 2022, at 8:22 PM, Srrfan1401 <srrfan1401@...> wrote:Thanks Todd, I’m looking for that photoOn Sep 17, 2022, at 8:22 PM, Todd Sullivan via groups.io <sullivant41@...> wrote:Fenton,
A little more data. I checked my January 1952 ORER, and the GM7O had 6 ex-Alton 17000 series boxcars listed. They were not big cars: 12'-1" at the eaves, 12'-11" over the running board and 2730 cuft.. By comparison, the 1937 AAR standard boxcar was about 14'-8" over the running board and 3712cuft.
Todd Sullivan
David
I expect that few or none of these cars were repainted/relettered for GM&O. The Alton series was almost entirely retired/scrapped in the late 1940s.
There are a few photos showing these cars in their Alton days. Page 6 of Ray Breyer's Alton fleet summary shows another 17000 series rebuild, albeit with the original (?) roof and inverse Murphy ends. This view does show the extended side straps and the door setup.
http://designbuildop.hansmanns.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/Alton_frt_car_fleet.pdf
Several of them show up in this view:
http://www.idaillinois.org/utils/ajaxhelper/?CISOROOT=p16614coll63&CISOPTR=6617&action=2&DMSCALE=100&DMWIDTH=9999&DMHEIGHT=9999
David Thompson
There are a few photos showing these cars in their Alton days. Page 6 of Ray Breyer's Alton fleet summary shows another 17000 series rebuild, albeit with the original (?) roof and inverse Murphy ends. This view does show the extended side straps and the door setup.
http://designbuildop.hansmanns.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/Alton_frt_car_fleet.pdf
Several of them show up in this view:
http://www.idaillinois.org/utils/ajaxhelper/?CISOROOT=p16614coll63&CISOPTR=6617&action=2&DMSCALE=100&DMWIDTH=9999&DMHEIGHT=9999
David Thompson
Ray Breyer
Actually, I think that these cars were rebuilt in two groups: one with flat roofs and Murphy ends, and a second with radials and Dreadnaughts. That makes sense, as a road as cash strapped as the Alton wouldn't spring for enough material to rebuild 1000 cars all at once.
Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL
Elgin, IL
On Saturday, September 17, 2022 at 07:25:50 PM CDT, O Fenton Wells <srrfan1401@...> wrote:
Ray Breyer feels that these were 1905 wooden cars rebuilt with radial roofs and some version of dreadnaught ends. We are still looking
Thanks for your input
On Sep 17, 2022, at 8:22 PM, Srrfan1401 <srrfan1401@...> wrote:
Thanks Todd, I’m looking for that photo
On Sep 17, 2022, at 8:22 PM, Todd Sullivan via groups.io <sullivant41@...> wrote:
Fenton,
A little more data. I checked my January 1952 ORER, and the GM7O had 6 ex-Alton 17000 series boxcars listed. They were not big cars: 12'-1" at the eaves, 12'-11" over the running board and 2730 cuft.. By comparison, the 1937 AAR standard boxcar was about 14'-8" over the running board and 3712cuft.
Todd Sullivan
Many thanks David. good info and the photo is a big help
Fenton
I expect that few or none of these cars were repainted/relettered for
GM&O. The Alton series was almost entirely retired/scrapped in the late
1940s.
There are a few photos showing these cars in their Alton days. Page 6 of
Ray Breyer's Alton fleet summary shows another 17000 series rebuild,
albeit with the original (?) roof and inverse Murphy ends. This view
does show the extended side straps and the door setup.
http://designbuildop.hansmanns.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/Alton_frt_car_fleet.pdf
Several of them show up in this view:
http://www.idaillinois.org/utils/ajaxhelper/?CISOROOT=p16614coll63&CISOPTR=6617&action=2&DMSCALE=100&DMWIDTH=9999&DMHEIGHT=9999
David Thompson
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Awesome Owen. Thank you so much.
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Fenton
On Sep 19, 2022, at 6:55 PM, Owen Thorne - owen at udel.edu <owen@...> wrote:
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T. Owen Thorne
Cecil County MD USA
owen at udel dot edu
And in GM&O lettering. Didn’t think any of them made it that way
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On Sep 19, 2022, at 8:29 PM, O Fenton Wells via groups.io <srrfan1401@...> wrote:
Awesome Owen. Thank you so much.FentonOn Sep 19, 2022, at 6:55 PM, Owen Thorne - owen at udel.edu <owen@...> wrote:
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T. Owen Thorne
Cecil County MD USA
owen at udel dot edu
Ray Breyer
1967 repack date and absolutely no dimensional data. This is a MOW car. In revenue service, none got GM&O paint, and none survived past 1954.
Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL
Elgin, IL
On Monday, September 19, 2022 at 07:30:54 PM CDT, O Fenton Wells <srrfan1401@...> wrote:
And in GM&O lettering. Didn’t think any of them made it that way
On Sep 19, 2022, at 8:29 PM, O Fenton Wells via groups.io <srrfan1401@...> wrote:
Awesome Owen. Thank you so much.FentonOn Sep 19, 2022, at 6:55 PM, Owen Thorne - owen at udel.edu <owen@...> wrote:
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T. Owen Thorne
Cecil County MD USA
owen at udel dot edu
I agree Ray but it’s the only photo I’ve seen of a broadside of this modified type car.
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Let me know your thoughts on the roof please. Radial or flat?
On Sep 19, 2022, at 9:05 PM, Ray Breyer via groups.io <rtbsvrr69@...> wrote:
1967 repack date and absolutely no dimensional data. This is a MOW car. In revenue service, none got GM&O paint, and none survived past 1954.Ray Breyer
Elgin, ILOn Monday, September 19, 2022 at 07:30:54 PM CDT, O Fenton Wells <srrfan1401@...> wrote:And in GM&O lettering. Didn’t think any of them made it that wayOn Sep 19, 2022, at 8:29 PM, O Fenton Wells via groups.io <srrfan1401@...> wrote: Awesome Owen. Thank you so much.FentonOn Sep 19, 2022, at 6:55 PM, Owen Thorne - owen at udel.edu <owen@...> wrote:
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T. Owen Thorne
Cecil County MD USA
owen at udel dot edu
Jason P
Ray and all,
I can't make out the car number in that photo but I do know that GM&O numbered all of their MoW and related non-revenue equipment into 66000 and 67000 series numbers. If you see a number like that on a car it has definitely been "bumped" from revenue service. Many were repainted into the MoW yellow scheme but there were a few boxcars that simply had the number patched out. There was also a diner-lounge car that was converted into an instruction car (#66658) that retained the passenger maroon and red scheme as well.
I'm not sure if this is a car from the same class but I've attached an Owen Leander (John Lareau collection) photo of GM&O 66636 that was a MoW supply car taken May 3, 1964 in Chicago. I don't have any info on it's former in-service number as a boxcar but it appears that it may have been built from a similar type of car.
-Jason Parham
On 09/19/2022 8:05 PM Ray Breyer via groups.io <rtbsvrr69@...> wrote:
1967 repack date and absolutely no dimensional data. This is a MOW car. In revenue service, none got GM&O paint, and none survived past 1954.
Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL
On Monday, September 19, 2022 at 07:30:54 PM CDT, O Fenton Wells <srrfan1401@...> wrote:
And in GM&O lettering. Didn’t think any of them made it that way
On Sep 19, 2022, at 8:29 PM, O Fenton Wells via groups.io <srrfan1401@...> wrote:
Awesome Owen. Thank you so much.Fenton
On Sep 19, 2022, at 6:55 PM, Owen Thorne - owen at udel.edu <owen@...> wrote:
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T. Owen Thorne
Cecil County MD USA
owen at udel dot edu
Ray Breyer
Near as I can make out, the car number is 67394. And it's definitely got a radial roof.
I'vce attached as clean a copy of the image as I can grab.
Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL
Elgin, IL
On Tuesday, September 20, 2022 at 06:50:38 AM CDT, O Fenton Wells <srrfan1401@...> wrote:
I agree Ray but it’s the only photo I’ve seen of a broadside of this modified type car.
Let me know your thoughts on the roof please. Radial or flat?
On Sep 19, 2022, at 9:05 PM, Ray Breyer via groups.io <rtbsvrr69@...> wrote:
1967 repack date and absolutely no dimensional data. This is a MOW car. In revenue service, none got GM&O paint, and none survived past 1954.Ray Breyer
Elgin, ILOn Monday, September 19, 2022 at 07:30:54 PM CDT, O Fenton Wells <srrfan1401@...> wrote:And in GM&O lettering. Didn’t think any of them made it that wayOn Sep 19, 2022, at 8:29 PM, O Fenton Wells via groups.io <srrfan1401@...> wrote: Awesome Owen. Thank you so much.FentonOn Sep 19, 2022, at 6:55 PM, Owen Thorne - owen at udel.edu <owen@...> wrote:
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T. Owen Thorne
Cecil County MD USA
owen at udel dot edu
Ray Breyer
Thanks for that image, Jason. It's the same car type: note the Pressed Steel fishbelly side sills.
Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL
Elgin, IL
On Tuesday, September 20, 2022 at 08:07:28 AM CDT, Jason P <gmo1515@...> wrote:
Ray and all,
I can't make out the car number in that photo but I do know that GM&O numbered all of their MoW and related non-revenue equipment into 66000 and 67000 series numbers. If you see a number like that on a car it has definitely been "bumped" from revenue service. Many were repainted into the MoW yellow scheme but there were a few boxcars that simply had the number patched out. There was also a diner-lounge car that was converted into an instruction car (#66658) that retained the passenger maroon and red scheme as well.
I'm not sure if this is a car from the same class but I've attached an Owen Leander (John Lareau collection) photo of GM&O 66636 that was a MoW supply car taken May 3, 1964 in Chicago. I don't have any info on it's former in-service number as a boxcar but it appears that it may have been built from a similar type of car.
-Jason Parham
On 09/19/2022 8:05 PM Ray Breyer via groups.io <rtbsvrr69@...> wrote:
1967 repack date and absolutely no dimensional data. This is a MOW car. In revenue service, none got GM&O paint, and none survived past 1954.
Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL
On Monday, September 19, 2022 at 07:30:54 PM CDT, O Fenton Wells <srrfan1401@...> wrote:
And in GM&O lettering. Didn’t think any of them made it that way
On Sep 19, 2022, at 8:29 PM, O Fenton Wells via groups.io <srrfan1401@...> wrote:
Awesome Owen. Thank you so much.Fenton
On Sep 19, 2022, at 6:55 PM, Owen Thorne - owen at udel.edu <owen@...> wrote:
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T. Owen Thorne
Cecil County MD USA
owen at udel dot edu
Thanks Ray, I have an email into Jim Singer as I want to buy a copy of this photo.
Near as I can make out, the car number is 67394. And it's definitely got a radial roof.I'vce attached as clean a copy of the image as I can grab.Ray Breyer
Elgin, ILOn Tuesday, September 20, 2022 at 06:50:38 AM CDT, O Fenton Wells <srrfan1401@...> wrote:I agree Ray but it’s the only photo I’ve seen of a broadside of this modified type car.Let me know your thoughts on the roof please. Radial or flat?On Sep 19, 2022, at 9:05 PM, Ray Breyer via groups.io <rtbsvrr69=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:1967 repack date and absolutely no dimensional data. This is a MOW car. In revenue service, none got GM&O paint, and none survived past 1954.Ray Breyer
Elgin, ILOn Monday, September 19, 2022 at 07:30:54 PM CDT, O Fenton Wells <srrfan1401@...> wrote:And in GM&O lettering. Didn’t think any of them made it that wayOn Sep 19, 2022, at 8:29 PM, O Fenton Wells via groups.io <srrfan1401=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:
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