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NKP BOXCAR COLORS

WILLIAM PARDIE
 


_._,_._,_

Above is an Overland brass car.  I was told by a very knowledgable modeler that the ends should be black.  He did not, however, have any information on the roof, underframes and trucks.  Were they vblack as well?

Thanks:

Bill Pardie

Brian Carlson
 

Bill

Ends black, Underbody black, Trucks black (unpainted castings). Roof unclear. The running board is unpainted galvanized. The seam caps look painted. The entire roof may be freight car color or it may be black or just the seam caps are black. I don’t have a photo that clearly shows the roof.  Maybe Ray Breyer does but if he did, I would have seen it. Signing this post officially.

 

Brian Carlson, P.E.

NKPHTS Collections Management director

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of WILLIAM PARDIE
Sent: Sunday, February 2, 2020 10:27 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] NKP BOXCAR COLORS

 

 

Garth Groff and Sally Sanford
 

Bill and Brian,

These cars were covered in an article by Pat Wider in RPC 19. Pullman builder's photos show the ends as black. The trucks also appear to be black, so the underframe probably was too. No solid information on the roof.

I photographed NKP 8099 at Noblesville, Indiana in 1978, and do not remember black ends. From another photo of this car in Wider's article, and other in-service photos of its sisters, it appears that the black (probably car cement) wore off over time, or if the cars were repainted they were done in all-FCR. The trucks were a rusty color by 1978. This car was probably on its way to the now-relocated Indiana Museum of Transport and Communications, also in Noblesville. Let's hope it survived that museum's relocation.

Yours Aye,

Garth Groff  🦆


On Sun, Feb 2, 2020 at 10:27 PM WILLIAM PARDIE <PARDIEW001@...> wrote:

Fritz Milhaupt
 

Black ends surviving the first repainting seems pretty uncommon among C&O and Pere Marquette boxcars, from most photos I've seen, and recollections of friends who frequented yards in the '40s and '50s.

- Fritz Milhaupt

al.kresse
 

The NKP, Erie, PM and  C&O were all part of the Van Sweringen brother's empire at this time and had joint standards for lettering and painting.  Road specific fonts for none-data stencils were unique . . . i.e. like the PM's special "Q".  I believe the C&O had black ends at this time.  Research on AMC (Advisory Mechanical Committee) is spotty.  Some is at Clifton Forge. Don't know what Cleveland State U has.

I am too old to drive down to CF alone for research sessions these days.

Al Kresse

On February 2, 2020 at 10:27 PM WILLIAM PARDIE <PARDIEW001@...> wrote:



 

Brian Carlson
 

I should have mentioned my paint colors were are built. Some cars did get FCC ends when repainted. 

Brian J. Carlson 

On Feb 3, 2020, at 8:47 AM, al.kresse <water.kresse@...> wrote:


The NKP, Erie, PM and  C&O were all part of the Van Sweringen brother's empire at this time and had joint standards for lettering and painting.  Road specific fonts for none-data stencils were unique . . . i.e. like the PM's special "Q".  I believe the C&O had black ends at this time.  Research on AMC (Advisory Mechanical Committee) is spotty.  Some is at Clifton Forge. Don't know what Cleveland State U has.

I am too old to drive down to CF alone for research sessions these days.

Al Kresse
On February 2, 2020 at 10:27 PM WILLIAM PARDIE <PARDIEW001@...> wrote:



 

Ray Breyer
 

All in-service photos I have of the 8000-series boxcars and of the coke car conversions show BLACK ends.
The Pullman builder's photos and most in-service photos seem to indicate unpainted galvanized roofs. It does look like a few got black asphaltum painted roofs by the 1960s.

Ignore ALL photos of car 8099. Noblesville was never known for high-quality "restorations".

As for black ends on NKP boxcars: they were a pre-AMC standard, and were regularly found on their cars through 1964. Not all cars were painted with them, but they bulk were, including during repaints from the early 1920s on. As with any modeling project, refer to as many photos as possible.

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL



On Monday, February 3, 2020, 08:14:55 AM CST, Brian Carlson via Groups.Io <prrk41361@...> wrote:


I should have mentioned my paint colors were are built. Some cars did get FCC ends when repainted. 

Brian J. Carlson 

On Feb 3, 2020, at 8:47 AM, al.kresse <water.kresse@...> wrote:


The NKP, Erie, PM and  C&O were all part of the Van Sweringen brother's empire at this time and had joint standards for lettering and painting.  Road specific fonts for none-data stencils were unique . . . i.e. like the PM's special "Q".  I believe the C&O had black ends at this time.  Research on AMC (Advisory Mechanical Committee) is spotty.  Some is at Clifton Forge. Don't know what Cleveland State U has.

I am too old to drive down to CF alone for research sessions these days.

Al Kresse
On February 2, 2020 at 10:27 PM WILLIAM PARDIE <PARDIEW001@...> wrote:



 

c.presler
 

When 8099 arrived at ITM the ends and underframe were black with the roof the same as the sides. That is how I repainted it. It had been parked at the Noblesville grain elevator at their request to hold supplies for grain doors. When we asked the office at Frankfort to move it, they were skeptical because their indicated their records showed it had been scrapped. I had to hand deliver a photo of the car with my '84 Camaro parked in front of it.

Despite Ray's comment. I tried to match paint to original samples or notes on blue prints. When preparing to paint NKP 1 I found Pullman green is a combination of black and orange and contains no green. All the lettering was redrawn in CAD from tracings of the real thing or original full size prints from Pete Shepard. In addition to the equipment  at  Noblesville, I provided full size prints, stencils and/or pdf files as requested for cabooses 141, 439, 451, 454, 475, and 479, locomotives 755 and 765, diesel 555 as well as City of Chicago and City of Lima. I have laid out the end stripes and cab sides for SD9 358. I gave a thumb drive with all of my files to Wayne York today.

We were told we could not leave the Baldwin diesel in US Navy paint or the 44 tonner as was from it's last owner due to liability issues, so I painted them as NKP 99 and 91 which never existed. A few railfans thought they were unknown NKP diesels, but I did explain that given the options. NKP paint was selected.

I also painted caboose C&O 90876 as NKP for a NKPH&TS convention since a few were purchased by the Nickel Plate, but that paint only lasted a few days.

E units and F's don't hold up because the side panels sit in a steel channel that acts as a scupper for water entering through the fans. When the drain holes get plugged the channel fills with water. The panels were ply-metal. which is plywood with steel sheet glued to it. You probably have seen the results.

Craig Presler
Noblesville

Vera Mills
 

Hello,

Further to Craig's comments below, please find attached a photograph taken on 3 July 2005 of NKP 8099 at ITM Noblesville IN.

It looks like a black end to me.

Regards,

Glen Mills
Re: NKP BOXCAR COLORS
From: c.presler
Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2020 19:11:50 PST

When 8099 arrived at ITM the ends and underframe were black with the roof the same as the sides. That is how I repainted it. It had been parked at the Noblesville grain elevator at their request to hold supplies for grain doors. When we asked the office at Frankfort to move it, they were skeptical because their indicated their records showed it had been scrapped. I had to hand deliver a photo of the car with my '84 Camaro parked in front of it.

snip.....

Craig Presler
Noblesville