Topics

[Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Hauling Sand before Covered Hoppers Became Popular

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Schuyler;

 

From my research and experiences, there were some in my area that were important:  foundry sand, glass sand, “green” sand, and locomotive sand.

 

What were the properties that were important to those uses, and how would this affect shipment and cars used?

 

Thanks!

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Schuyler Larrabee via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2020 1:08 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Hauling Sand before Covered Hoppers Became Popular

 

There are two varieties of sand (and probably further distinctions can be made of each).  There’s beach sand, which is rounded grains (also what’s in the Sahara desert) from the wave (and wind) action.  I would surmise that variety of sand would need to be covered so it doesn’t blow away.

The other variety is angular sand, which comes from (typically) sand pits away from water.  Angular sand is required for use in concrete, as it will lock together with the cement matrix to form a solid durable structure.  I would guess that angular sand >might< be shipped without being covered as it would be less likely to blow away in transit.

 

And at this point I will point out one of my pet issues with the distinction between concrete and cement.  Cement is an element in making concrete.  Cement is not, directly, concrete.

 

Schuyler

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of reporterllc via groups.io
Sent: Monday, June 08, 2020 10:17 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Hauling Sand before Coverd Hoppers Became Popular

 

What kind of car was used? I am referring to bulk sand from a pit that ships out sand and gravel. Perhaps this sand would not be that specialized. Wouldn't it need to be protected from the weather? On a side note, In the early 1970s (long after covered hoppers became popular) I remember a tower operator referring to an ancient gondola in a consist loaded with sand. I did not see it and wondered if it was covered.

Victor A. Baird
Blockedhttp://www.erstwhilepublications.com

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Well, I said . . . “and probably further distinctions can be made of each . . .”

 

So, a fair question Elden, but Google is your (and my) friend:

 

Foundry sand is quite interesting:

https://www.solexthermal.com/resources/articles/what-is-foundry-sand/

This page mentions “green sand” which it defines as Green Sand is silica sand.  Googling “green sand” gets you to what is apparently a literally green-colored sand for use in landscaping.  But that’s not what we’re talking about.,

 

Glass sand

https://www.sand.org/page/Glass_Production

a quite interesting page.  Click o “Industrial Sand” at the top of the page.   There are several basic materials that can be the constituent parts of glass sand, including quartz, lava, and desert sand.  Also click on “Research” for more interesting considerations.

 

Locomotive sand gets you to this page:

https://www.kremersand.com/specific-applications/railway-sand

which includes a de facto definition: a mixture of calibrated sand in various grain sizes, which is spread between the train wheels and the tracks.

 

As to shipment and rail cars used . . . well, my work here is done.

 

Schuyler

 

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2020 1:19 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Hauling Sand before Covered Hoppers Became Popular

 

Schuyler;

 

From my research and experiences, there were some in my area that were important:  foundry sand, glass sand, “green” sand, and locomotive sand.

 

What were the properties that were important to those uses, and how would this affect shipment and cars used?

 

Thanks!

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Schuyler Larrabee via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2020 1:08 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Hauling Sand before Covered Hoppers Became Popular

 

There are two varieties of sand (and probably further distinctions can be made of each).  There’s beach sand, which is rounded grains (also what’s in the Sahara desert) from the wave (and wind) action.  I would surmise that variety of sand would need to be covered so it doesn’t blow away.

The other variety is angular sand, which comes from (typically) sand pits away from water.  Angular sand is required for use in concrete, as it will lock together with the cement matrix to form a solid durable structure.  I would guess that angular sand >might< be shipped without being covered as it would be less likely to blow away in transit.

 

And at this point I will point out one of my pet issues with the distinction between concrete and cement.  Cement is an element in making concrete.  Cement is not, directly, concrete.

 

Schuyler

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of reporterllc via groups.io
Sent: Monday, June 08, 2020 10:17 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Hauling Sand before Coverd Hoppers Became Popular

 

What kind of car was used? I am referring to bulk sand from a pit that ships out sand and gravel. Perhaps this sand would not be that specialized. Wouldn't it need to be protected from the weather? On a side note, In the early 1970s (long after covered hoppers became popular) I remember a tower operator referring to an ancient gondola in a consist loaded with sand. I did not see it and wondered if it was covered.

Victor A. Baird
Blockedhttp://www.erstwhilepublications.com

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Youi gize are just full of questions:

 

Frac Sand:

https://www.blackmountainsand.com/resources/what-is-frac-sand/

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Schuyler Larrabee via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2020 1:52 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Hauling Sand before Covered Hoppers Became Popular

 

Well, I said . . . “and probably further distinctions can be made of each . . .”

 

So, a fair question Elden, but Google is your (and my) friend:

 

Foundry sand is quite interesting:

https://www.solexthermal.com/resources/articles/what-is-foundry-sand/

This page mentions “green sand” which it defines as Green Sand is silica sand.  Googling “green sand” gets you to what is apparently a literally green-colored sand for use in landscaping.  But that’s not what we’re talking about.,

 

Glass sand

https://www.sand.org/page/Glass_Production

a quite interesting page.  Click o “Industrial Sand” at the top of the page.   There are several basic materials that can be the constituent parts of glass sand, including quartz, lava, and desert sand.  Also click on “Research” for more interesting considerations.

 

Locomotive sand gets you to this page:

https://www.kremersand.com/specific-applications/railway-sand

which includes a de facto definition: a mixture of calibrated sand in various grain sizes, which is spread between the train wheels and the tracks.

 

As to shipment and rail cars used . . . well, my work here is done.

 

Schuyler

 

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2020 1:19 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Hauling Sand before Covered Hoppers Became Popular

 

Schuyler;

 

From my research and experiences, there were some in my area that were important:  foundry sand, glass sand, “green” sand, and locomotive sand.

 

What were the properties that were important to those uses, and how would this affect shipment and cars used?

 

Thanks!

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Schuyler Larrabee via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2020 1:08 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Hauling Sand before Covered Hoppers Became Popular

 

There are two varieties of sand (and probably further distinctions can be made of each).  There’s beach sand, which is rounded grains (also what’s in the Sahara desert) from the wave (and wind) action.  I would surmise that variety of sand would need to be covered so it doesn’t blow away.

The other variety is angular sand, which comes from (typically) sand pits away from water.  Angular sand is required for use in concrete, as it will lock together with the cement matrix to form a solid durable structure.  I would guess that angular sand >might< be shipped without being covered as it would be less likely to blow away in transit.

 

And at this point I will point out one of my pet issues with the distinction between concrete and cement.  Cement is an element in making concrete.  Cement is not, directly, concrete.

 

Schuyler

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of reporterllc via groups.io
Sent: Monday, June 08, 2020 10:17 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Hauling Sand before Coverd Hoppers Became Popular

 

What kind of car was used? I am referring to bulk sand from a pit that ships out sand and gravel. Perhaps this sand would not be that specialized. Wouldn't it need to be protected from the weather? On a side note, In the early 1970s (long after covered hoppers became popular) I remember a tower operator referring to an ancient gondola in a consist loaded with sand. I did not see it and wondered if it was covered.

Victor A. Baird
Blockedhttp://www.erstwhilepublications.com

Eric Hansmann
 

Frac sand? Is that from the future?

 

 

Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Schuyler Larrabee via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2020 12:56 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Hauling Sand before Covered Hoppers Became Popular

 

Youi gize are just full of questions:

 

Frac Sand:

https://www.blackmountainsand.com/resources/what-is-frac-sand/

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Schuyler Larrabee via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2020 1:52 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Hauling Sand before Covered Hoppers Became Popular

 

Well, I said . . . “and probably further distinctions can be made of each . . .”

 

So, a fair question Elden, but Google is your (and my) friend:

 

Foundry sand is quite interesting:

https://www.solexthermal.com/resources/articles/what-is-foundry-sand/

This page mentions “green sand” which it defines as Green Sand is silica sand.  Googling “green sand” gets you to what is apparently a literally green-colored sand for use in landscaping.  But that’s not what we’re talking about.,

 

Glass sand

https://www.sand.org/page/Glass_Production

a quite interesting page.  Click o “Industrial Sand” at the top of the page.   There are several basic materials that can be the constituent parts of glass sand, including quartz, lava, and desert sand.  Also click on “Research” for more interesting considerations.

 

Locomotive sand gets you to this page:

https://www.kremersand.com/specific-applications/railway-sand

which includes a de facto definition: a mixture of calibrated sand in various grain sizes, which is spread between the train wheels and the tracks.

 

As to shipment and rail cars used . . . well, my work here is done.

 

Schuyler

 

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2020 1:19 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Hauling Sand before Covered Hoppers Became Popular

 

Schuyler;

 

From my research and experiences, there were some in my area that were important:  foundry sand, glass sand, “green” sand, and locomotive sand.

 

What were the properties that were important to those uses, and how would this affect shipment and cars used?

 

Thanks!

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Schuyler Larrabee via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2020 1:08 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Hauling Sand before Covered Hoppers Became Popular

 

There are two varieties of sand (and probably further distinctions can be made of each).  There’s beach sand, which is rounded grains (also what’s in the Sahara desert) from the wave (and wind) action.  I would surmise that variety of sand would need to be covered so it doesn’t blow away.

The other variety is angular sand, which comes from (typically) sand pits away from water.  Angular sand is required for use in concrete, as it will lock together with the cement matrix to form a solid durable structure.  I would guess that angular sand >might< be shipped without being covered as it would be less likely to blow away in transit.

 

And at this point I will point out one of my pet issues with the distinction between concrete and cement.  Cement is an element in making concrete.  Cement is not, directly, concrete.

 

Schuyler

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of reporterllc via groups.io
Sent: Monday, June 08, 2020 10:17 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Hauling Sand before Coverd Hoppers Became Popular

 

What kind of car was used? I am referring to bulk sand from a pit that ships out sand and gravel. Perhaps this sand would not be that specialized. Wouldn't it need to be protected from the weather? On a side note, In the early 1970s (long after covered hoppers became popular) I remember a tower operator referring to an ancient gondola in a consist loaded with sand. I did not see it and wondered if it was covered.

Victor A. Baird
Blockedhttp://www.erstwhilepublications.com

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

All;

 

Reason I ask is, I am aware of several customers that wanted specific cars (classes) for their use, and got their way. And this is related to why they did not want sand in box cars or gons.

 

For instance, Mississippi Glass (later Corning) wanted dedicated H30 and H32, for their use in glass sand shipment.

 

They later got very insistent that they get dedicated H34 (PS-2’s), which my guess was related to contamination and possibly also water contamination.

 

There were also various foundries that asked for certain types of car, for either “foundry sand”, or “green sand”.

 

They got all this from different sources, so it is important to our knowledge of freight cars, where they went, and why.

 

Thanks again, Schuyler!

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Schuyler Larrabee via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2020 1:52 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Hauling Sand before Covered Hoppers Became Popular

 

Well, I said . . . “and probably further distinctions can be made of each . . .”

 

So, a fair question Elden, but Google is your (and my) friend:

 

Foundry sand is quite interesting:

Blockedhttps://www.solexthermal.com/resources/articles/what-is-foundry-sand/

This page mentions “green sand” which it defines as Green Sand is silica sand.  Googling “green sand” gets you to what is apparently a literally green-colored sand for use in landscaping.  But that’s not what we’re talking about.,

 

Glass sand

Blockedhttps://www.sand.org/page/Glass_Production

a quite interesting page.  Click o “Industrial Sand” at the top of the page.   There are several basic materials that can be the constituent parts of glass sand, including quartz, lava, and desert sand.  Also click on “Research” for more interesting considerations.

 

Locomotive sand gets you to this page:

Blockedhttps://www.kremersand.com/specific-applications/railway-sand

which includes a de facto definition: a mixture of calibrated sand in various grain sizes, which is spread between the train wheels and the tracks.

 

As to shipment and rail cars used . . . well, my work here is done.

 

Schuyler

 

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2020 1:19 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Hauling Sand before Covered Hoppers Became Popular

 

Schuyler;

 

From my research and experiences, there were some in my area that were important:  foundry sand, glass sand, “green” sand, and locomotive sand.

 

What were the properties that were important to those uses, and how would this affect shipment and cars used?

 

Thanks!

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Schuyler Larrabee via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2020 1:08 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Hauling Sand before Covered Hoppers Became Popular

 

There are two varieties of sand (and probably further distinctions can be made of each).  There’s beach sand, which is rounded grains (also what’s in the Sahara desert) from the wave (and wind) action.  I would surmise that variety of sand would need to be covered so it doesn’t blow away.

The other variety is angular sand, which comes from (typically) sand pits away from water.  Angular sand is required for use in concrete, as it will lock together with the cement matrix to form a solid durable structure.  I would guess that angular sand >might< be shipped without being covered as it would be less likely to blow away in transit.

 

And at this point I will point out one of my pet issues with the distinction between concrete and cement.  Cement is an element in making concrete.  Cement is not, directly, concrete.

 

Schuyler

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of reporterllc via groups.io
Sent: Monday, June 08, 2020 10:17 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Hauling Sand before Coverd Hoppers Became Popular

 

What kind of car was used? I am referring to bulk sand from a pit that ships out sand and gravel. Perhaps this sand would not be that specialized. Wouldn't it need to be protected from the weather? On a side note, In the early 1970s (long after covered hoppers became popular) I remember a tower operator referring to an ancient gondola in a consist loaded with sand. I did not see it and wondered if it was covered.

Victor A. Baird
BlockedBlockedhttp://www.erstwhilepublications.com

Jim Betz
 

Schuyler,
  There is a town about 20 miles from me that used to have two cement
plants - Superior Cement and Washington Portland Cement and the
town is called "Concrete".  Actually it's a little more interesting than that
the town on the West side of the Baker River was called "Cement City".
Then they built the Superior cement plant in Baker on the East side of
the river - and when that was built they merged Cement City and Baker
into the town of "Concrete" (County of Skagit, State of Washington).
  Yes, you're correct in your terminology - but common use substitutes
Concrete for cement in many mouths - and vice versa ... and even a
small primarily two plant town calls itself Concrete when what they
make is cement.  The two cement plants were almost entirely built of
concrete and the schools in town were also of concrete construction
(as were other major buildings such as the Library).

  Concrete will be a significant town on the layout I'm building - perhaps
I should call it "Cement City" since I'm not going to do the entire town?
(Yes, there was also a lumber mill in Concrete.)
  I'll be hauling concrete in both early covered hoppers and box cars.
But any concrete being hauled around Concrete will be in - wait for it -
cement trucks.  ;-)
                                                                                                      - Jim

Dennis Storzek
 

On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 10:52 AM, Schuyler Larrabee wrote:
This page mentions “green sand” which it defines as Green Sand is silica sand.  Googling “green sand” gets you to what is apparently a literally green-colored sand for use in landscaping.  But that’s not what we’re talking about.,
Leave it to Google. "Green sand" in foundry terminology means it is used damp, like "green" wood, as opposed to core sand, which has different binders and is baked before the molded cores are placed in the green sand mold.

Dennis Storzek

A&Y Dave in MD
 

Maybe not relevant (no sand was listed) by my database from 1934 Southern Railway in North Carolina includes the following (cement, plaster, and soda ash all in boxcars):
columns are
Road, car number, B for Boxcar, contents of car, waybilled destination, tons, type of car (notes from Al Brown).

C&O
82237
B
Cement
Elkin
50
40' SS 1-1/2D bx
SOU
169098
B
Cement
N Wilkesboro
50
36' DS bx: SU
SOU
157403
B
Cement
Elkin
76
36' DS bx: SU
NC&StL
14184
B
Cement
N Wilkesboro
57
36' Fowler bx
N&W
120552
B
Cement
Elkin
76
USRA SS bx: BK
N&W
51301
B
Cement
Elkin
76
40' DD stl bx: BS
N&B
787
B
Cement
K29
52
"USRA" stl bx
N&W
67730
B
Plaster
Burlington
42
40' SS 1½D bx: BL
C&O
82129
B
Cement
Elkin
50
40' SS 1-1/2D bx
C&G
3118
B
Soda Ash
Greensboro
61
40' SS bx
C&O
85537
B
Cement
K84
50
36' DS bx
CMStP&P
701047
B
Cement
K29
50
USRA SS bx
PRR
567563
B
Cement
W Salem
50
X29 bx
SOU
134300
B
Cement
K41
10
36' DS bx
N&W
50794
B
Plaster
Burlington
40
40' DD stl bx: BS
CNJ
20226
B
Plaster
W Salem
42
USRA SS bx: XMf
PRR
596143
B
Cement
W Salem
50
USRA SS bx: X26
B&O
277957
B
Cement
W Salem
50
 '23 ARA stl bx: M-26d
MP
91048
B
Soda Ash
Raleigh
47
"USRA" SS bx
N&B
774
B
Cement
W Salem
52
"USRA" stl bx
DL&W
42455
B
Soda Ash
K103
44
36' DS bx

There was also a lot of stone, gravel and clay (many so not listed), but to my surprise nothing labeled as sand or anything like it.  Might be the trains or the location.

Dave

Tuesday, June 16, 2020, 1:19:16 PM, you wrote:


Schuyler;
 
From my research and experiences, there were some in my area that were important:  foundry sand, glass sand, “green” sand, and locomotive sand.
 
What were the properties that were important to those uses, and how would this affect shipment and cars used?
 
Thanks!
 
Elden Gatwood
 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Schuyler Larrabee via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2020 1:08 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Hauling Sand before Covered Hoppers Became Popular
 
There are two varieties of sand (and probably further distinctions can be made of each).  There’s beach sand, which is rounded grains (also what’s in the Sahara desert) from the wave (and wind) action.  I would surmise that variety of sand would need to be covered so it doesn’t blow away.
The other variety is angular sand, which comes from (typically) sand pits away from water.  Angular sand is required for use in concrete, as it will lock together with the cement matrix to form a solid durable structure.  I would guess that angular sand >might< be shipped without being covered as it would be less likely to blow away in transit.
 
And at this point I will point out one of my pet issues with the distinction between concrete and cement.  Cement is an element in making concrete.  Cement is not, directly, concrete.
 
Schuyler
 
From: 
main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of reporterllc via groups.io
Sent: Monday, June 08, 2020 10:17 PM
To: 
main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Hauling Sand before Coverd Hoppers Became Popular
 
What kind of car was used? I am referring to bulk sand from a pit that ships out sand and gravel. Perhaps this sand would not be that specialized. Wouldn't it need to be protected from the weather? On a side note, In the early 1970s (long after covered hoppers became popular) I remember a tower operator referring to an ancient gondola in a consist loaded with sand. I did not see it and wondered if it was covered.

Victor A. Baird
Blockedhttp://www.erstwhilepublications.com



--
David Bott

Sent from David Bott's desktop PC
--
____________________________
David Bott, modeling the A&Y in '34

ed_mines
 

what about sand used to make concrete?

when I was a kid there were 2 abandoned sand quarries near my home where sand had been taken for building homes. One was filled with water and is now a park.

Schuyler Larrabee
 

What’s your question, Ed?  This thread has answered many of these questions.

 

Schuyler

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of ed_mines via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2020 11:18 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Hauling Sand before Covered Hoppers Became Popular

 

what about sand used to make concrete?

when I was a kid there were 2 abandoned sand quarries near my home where sand had been taken for building homes. One was filled with water and is now a park.