[Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] PRR and other coke cars
Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Matt;
Thanks for confirming that. I think I have seen a NKP box in that service.
As improbable as it sounds, I think they nailed them in place, climbed the ladder to get out, then filled the car, then once at destination, started knocking out boards starting at the top, and moving down. Finally, shoveling the car out to clear the rest.
The attached shows a filling pic that, as crude as it appears, was used for large pieces of flaked coke, so didn’t require the boards be flush with one another. But the coke is clearly in contact with the boards.
The boards at least keep the coke away from the doors, so they can be opened easily to get to the boards to punch them out.
Sheesh.
Elden Gatwood
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Matt Smith
Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2020 11:05 AM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] PRR and other coke cars
The Nickel Plate did this with several old Fowlers and later War Emergency SS box cars. For the doors they simply nailed up boards similar to grain boards.
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Bruce Griffin
Friends,
The B&O converted older boxcars into coke gons by removing the roofs and tying the sides together with steel rods (that was the method in photos I have seen). This was done over several decades and the boxcars reclassified as various subclasses of O-39.This happened from the late 20s into the early 50s with different boxcar classes including some M-8, M-13, M-15, M-24, and M-26 boxcars. Confirming Elden's scenario, I saved a post from the B&O Yahoo Group from 2006 and it tells a similar story by first hand account and added it below. Bruce D. Griffin I well recall the coke cars in the early 1960s, probably the M-15 series.. The few I saw came to a local foundry. It lacked a between-rails receiving pit, thus the need for a car that could be unloaded similar to a conventional box car. Those cars I saw all had steel underframes and were very much showing their age with badly faded paint, wear, some rust and dents from probably loading.. When loaded, the doors had been cross boarded on the inside with planks. The foudrymen would climb onto the top of the car with flat shovels and start shoveling into an adjacent bin. When they reached a level even with the first board, the door was slid open and the plank removed. The men shoveled directly through the door into the bin. This was repeated until all the planks were removed and the car was finally empty. The planks were returned to the car loose, and the door then closed. They might put four to six men on the car and it would be easily unloaded in a day. I recall
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CJ Riley
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Mont Switzer
The MONON hauled coke from the Indianapolis Gas and Coke utility to destinations all over the midwest. In our era composite stone gons had boxcar bodies dropped onto them. Roofs were removed for top loading. Door openings were boarded up
for loading, boards removed as load was removed.
The composite boxcar bodies had boards removed and were often thought to be stock cars.
As mentioned before, inadequate quenching of the coke combined with air entering the cars as they were hauled in freight trains resulted in fires. On the Monon this usually occurred between Indianapolis and Monon on train 90 which ran in the
evenings.
Train crews were good at setting out coke cars that had burst into flames. Local fire departments extinguished the flames, but typically most of the wood was lost.
Mont Switzer
Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: Bruce Griffin <bdg1210@...>
Date: 10/21/20 2:45 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] PRR and other coke cars
Friends,
The B&O converted older boxcars into coke gons by removing the roofs and tying the sides together with steel rods (that was the method in photos I have seen). This was done over several decades and the boxcars reclassified as various subclasses of O-39.This happened from the late 20s into the early 50s with different boxcar classes including some M-8, M-13, M-15, M-24, and M-26 boxcars. Confirming Elden's scenario, I saved a post from the B&O Yahoo Group from 2006 and it tells a similar story by first hand account and added it below. Bruce D. Griffin I well recall the coke cars in the early 1960s, probably the M-15 series.. The few I saw came to a local foundry. It lacked a between-rails receiving pit, thus the need for a car that
could be unloaded similar to a conventional box car. Those cars I saw all had steel underframes and were very much showing their age with badly faded paint, wear, some rust and dents from probably loading.. When loaded, the doors had been cross boarded on
the inside with planks. The foudrymen would climb onto the top of the car with flat shovels and start shoveling into an adjacent bin. When they reached a level even with the first board, the door was slid open and the plank removed. The men shoveled directly
through the door into the bin. This was repeated until all the planks were removed and the car was finally empty. The planks were returned to the car loose, and the door then closed. They might put four to six men on the car and it would be easily unloaded
in a day. I recall
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Matt Smith
That would jive with the photos I've seen and what Bruce described. These cars appeared to serve the smaller foundries once spread all across the midwest. Obviously these couldn't feed the appetite of large scale production.
-- Matt Smith Bloomington, IL
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mel perry
what would be interesting is the unloading of these cars, with the door on the inside, especially with no door tracks just thinking out loud ;-)
On Wed, Oct 21, 2020, 8:38 PM Matt Smith <flyn96@...> wrote: That would jive with the photos I've seen and what Bruce described. These cars appeared to serve the smaller foundries once spread all across the midwest. Obviously these couldn't feed the appetite of large scale production.
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Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Thanks, Mont!
That sounds like very similar experiences from those I’ve heard of RRs around my hometown, where they generated a LOT of coke.
Elden Gatwood
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Mont Switzer
Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2020 8:20 PM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] PRR and other coke cars
The MONON hauled coke from the Indianapolis Gas and Coke utility to destinations all over the midwest. In our era composite stone gons had boxcar bodies dropped onto them. Roofs were removed for top loading. Door openings were boarded up for loading, boards removed as load was removed.
The composite boxcar bodies had boards removed and were often thought to be stock cars.
As mentioned before, inadequate quenching of the coke combined with air entering the cars as they were hauled in freight trains resulted in fires. On the Monon this usually occurred between Indianapolis and Monon on train 90 which ran in the evenings.
Train crews were good at setting out coke cars that had burst into flames. Local fire departments extinguished the flames, but typically most of the wood was lost.
Mont Switzer
Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
-------- Original message -------- From: Bruce Griffin <bdg1210@...> Date: 10/21/20 2:45 PM (GMT-05:00) Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] PRR and other coke cars
Friends, Bruce D. Griffin I well recall the coke cars in the early 1960s, probably the M-15 series.. The few I saw came to a local foundry. It lacked a between-rails receiving pit, thus the need for a car that
could be unloaded similar to a conventional box car. Those cars I saw all had steel underframes and were very much showing their age with badly faded paint, wear, some rust and dents from probably loading.. When loaded, the doors had been cross boarded on
the inside with planks. The foudrymen would climb onto the top of the car with flat shovels and start shoveling into an adjacent bin. When they reached a level even with the first board, the door was slid open and the plank removed. The men shoveled directly
through the door into the bin. This was repeated until all the planks were removed and the car was finally empty. The planks were returned to the car loose, and the door then closed. They might put four to six men on the car and it would be easily unloaded
in a day. I recall
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william darnaby
Here is a screen shot I snagged off a Herron Rail video of an empty Monon coke car headed back to Indy on an NYC freight out of Bellefontaine, OH in 1955. Bill Darnaby
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Mont Switzer
Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2020 8:20 PM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] PRR and other coke cars
The MONON hauled coke from the Indianapolis Gas and Coke utility to destinations all over the midwest. In our era composite stone gons had boxcar bodies dropped onto them. Roofs were removed for top loading. Door openings were boarded up for loading, boards removed as load was removed.
The composite boxcar bodies had boards removed and were often thought to be stock cars.
As mentioned before, inadequate quenching of the coke combined with air entering the cars as they were hauled in freight trains resulted in fires. On the Monon this usually occurred between Indianapolis and Monon on train 90 which ran in the evenings.
Train crews were good at setting out coke cars that had burst into flames. Local fire departments extinguished the flames, but typically most of the wood was lost.
Mont Switzer
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Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Thanks for sharing that, Bill! Very similar to PRR coke cars of that era.
It appears that most (if not all) coke cars of this type did have the original doors removed as here:
…and that it was then a simple matter of installing the “doors” board-by-board, after which you climbed the ladder, filled the car up, took it to the customer, and bashed the boards out (in) to empty.
I would still like to find the correspondence as to why they didn’t use a dedicated coke hopper like attached H22. It might have been lack of facility to center dump.
Elden Gatwood
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
On Behalf Of william darnaby
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2020 10:12 AM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] PRR and other coke cars
Here is a screen shot I snagged off a Herron Rail video of an empty Monon coke car headed back to Indy on an NYC freight out of Bellefontaine, OH in 1955.
Bill Darnaby
From:
main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Mont Switzer
The MONON hauled coke from the Indianapolis Gas and Coke utility to destinations all over the midwest. In our era composite stone gons had boxcar bodies dropped onto them. Roofs were removed for top loading. Door openings were boarded up for loading, boards removed as load was removed.
The composite boxcar bodies had boards removed and were often thought to be stock cars.
As mentioned before, inadequate quenching of the coke combined with air entering the cars as they were hauled in freight trains resulted in fires. On the Monon this usually occurred between Indianapolis and Monon on train 90 which ran in the evenings.
Train crews were good at setting out coke cars that had burst into flames. Local fire departments extinguished the flames, but typically most of the wood was lost.
Mont Switzer
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Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Good point, CJ!
I have seen cars with rods across the width of the car, and also those that had angles welded over the top chord to stiffen the car.
Elden Gatwood
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
On Behalf Of CJ Riley via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2020 2:55 PM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] PRR and other coke cars
The C&O also had similar cars with the reinforcing rods.
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Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Thanks for providing that, Bruce!
I am looking for the specifics on the PRR’s coke cars, and will update when I find info.
I appreciate everyone’s input!
Elden Gatwood
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Bruce Griffin
Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2020 2:46 PM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] PRR and other coke cars
Friends, Bruce D. Griffin I well recall the coke cars in the early 1960s, probably the M-15 series.. The few I saw came to a local foundry. It lacked a between-rails receiving pit, thus the need for a car that
could be unloaded similar to a conventional box car. Those cars I saw all had steel underframes and were very much showing their age with badly faded paint, wear, some rust and dents from probably loading.. When loaded, the doors had been cross boarded on
the inside with planks. The foudrymen would climb onto the top of the car with flat shovels and start shoveling into an adjacent bin. When they reached a level even with the first board, the door was slid open and the plank removed. The men shoveled directly
through the door into the bin. This was repeated until all the planks were removed and the car was finally empty. The planks were returned to the car loose, and the door then closed. They might put four to six men on the car and it would be easily unloaded
in a day. I recall
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Eric Hansmann
Elden,
Some customers may not have needed the cubic capacity that an H22 could deliver.
IIRC from a certain published source, GSD gondolas had some modifications for coke, too.
Eric Hansmann Murfreesboro, TN
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2020 9:54 AM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] PRR and other coke cars
Thanks for sharing that, Bill! Very similar to PRR coke cars of that era.
It appears that most (if not all) coke cars of this type did have the original doors removed as here:
…and that it was then a simple matter of installing the “doors” board-by-board, after which you climbed the ladder, filled the car up, took it to the customer, and bashed the boards out (in) to empty.
I would still like to find the correspondence as to why they didn’t use a dedicated coke hopper like attached H22. It might have been lack of facility to center dump.
Elden Gatwood
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of william darnaby
Here is a screen shot I snagged off a Herron Rail video of an empty Monon coke car headed back to Indy on an NYC freight out of Bellefontaine, OH in 1955.
Bill Darnaby
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mont Switzer
The MONON hauled coke from the Indianapolis Gas and Coke utility to destinations all over the midwest. In our era composite stone gons had boxcar bodies dropped onto them. Roofs were removed for top loading. Door openings were boarded up for loading, boards removed as load was removed.
The composite boxcar bodies had boards removed and were often thought to be stock cars.
As mentioned before, inadequate quenching of the coke combined with air entering the cars as they were hauled in freight trains resulted in fires. On the Monon this usually occurred between Indianapolis and Monon on train 90 which ran in the evenings.
Train crews were good at setting out coke cars that had burst into flames. Local fire departments extinguished the flames, but typically most of the wood was lost.
Mont Switzer
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Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Eric;
Spot on.
I was unable to find the correspondence on the GS cars that went into coke service, but it is clear they did so. They were such early cars, they may have pre-dated the H22 sufficiently that it was OBE.
Elden Gatwood
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Eric Hansmann
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2020 11:48 AM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] PRR and other coke cars
Elden,
Some customers may not have needed the cubic capacity that an H22 could deliver.
IIRC from a certain published source, GSD gondolas had some modifications for coke, too.
Eric Hansmann Murfreesboro, TN
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Thanks for sharing that, Bill! Very similar to PRR coke cars of that era.
It appears that most (if not all) coke cars of this type did have the original doors removed as here:
…and that it was then a simple matter of installing the “doors” board-by-board, after which you climbed the ladder, filled the car up, took it to the customer, and bashed the boards out (in) to empty.
I would still like to find the correspondence as to why they didn’t use a dedicated coke hopper like attached H22. It might have been lack of facility to center dump.
Elden Gatwood
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
On Behalf Of william darnaby
Here is a screen shot I snagged off a Herron Rail video of an empty Monon coke car headed back to Indy on an NYC freight out of Bellefontaine, OH in 1955.
Bill Darnaby
From:
main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Mont Switzer
The MONON hauled coke from the Indianapolis Gas and Coke utility to destinations all over the midwest. In our era composite stone gons had boxcar bodies dropped onto them. Roofs were removed for top loading. Door openings were boarded up for loading, boards removed as load was removed.
The composite boxcar bodies had boards removed and were often thought to be stock cars.
As mentioned before, inadequate quenching of the coke combined with air entering the cars as they were hauled in freight trains resulted in fires. On the Monon this usually occurred between Indianapolis and Monon on train 90 which ran in the evenings.
Train crews were good at setting out coke cars that had burst into flames. Local fire departments extinguished the flames, but typically most of the wood was lost.
Mont Switzer
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Eric Hansmann
As noted in the Pennsy gondola book, the GSD cars were out of coke service by 1931.
Several years ago when I was researching the coal fields of north-central West Virginia I stumbled across an interesting nugget. Coke oven operations shut down along the Western Maryland near Belington and in Thomas, WV. Only one remained in Harding, WV, but it would close in 1927 or 28. Coke production had shifted from beehive ovens to the by-product plants and affected these operations far from the mills.
Have you found similar shutdowns in the Connellsville Coal & Coke District that would affect the numbers of cars needed to transport coke?
Eric Hansmann Murfreesboro, TN
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2020 10:59 AM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] PRR and other coke cars
Eric;
Spot on.
I was unable to find the correspondence on the GS cars that went into coke service, but it is clear they did so. They were such early cars, they may have pre-dated the H22 sufficiently that it was OBE.
Elden Gatwood
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Eric Hansmann
Elden,
Some customers may not have needed the cubic capacity that an H22 could deliver.
IIRC from a certain published source, GSD gondolas had some modifications for coke, too.
Eric Hansmann Murfreesboro, TN
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Thanks for sharing that, Bill! Very similar to PRR coke cars of that era.
It appears that most (if not all) coke cars of this type did have the original doors removed as here:
…and that it was then a simple matter of installing the “doors” board-by-board, after which you climbed the ladder, filled the car up, took it to the customer, and bashed the boards out (in) to empty.
I would still like to find the correspondence as to why they didn’t use a dedicated coke hopper like attached H22. It might have been lack of facility to center dump.
Elden Gatwood
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of william darnaby
Here is a screen shot I snagged off a Herron Rail video of an empty Monon coke car headed back to Indy on an NYC freight out of Bellefontaine, OH in 1955.
Bill Darnaby
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mont Switzer
The MONON hauled coke from the Indianapolis Gas and Coke utility to destinations all over the midwest. In our era composite stone gons had boxcar bodies dropped onto them. Roofs were removed for top loading. Door openings were boarded up for loading, boards removed as load was removed.
The composite boxcar bodies had boards removed and were often thought to be stock cars.
As mentioned before, inadequate quenching of the coke combined with air entering the cars as they were hauled in freight trains resulted in fires. On the Monon this usually occurred between Indianapolis and Monon on train 90 which ran in the evenings.
Train crews were good at setting out coke cars that had burst into flames. Local fire departments extinguished the flames, but typically most of the wood was lost.
Mont Switzer
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Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Eric;
Yes, and converted back to GS thereafter, sloped drop doors being removed 1929-’45-ish. The two photos of coke racks on GSD we put in the book are instructive.
Yes, I have, but do not have those materials at-hand. It also corresponds to the rebuilding of H22 into H21A, as need for other “coke” cars also shifted to the in-plant RRs that replaced the beehives and banked coke works. Remaining coke cars on the PRR, at least, were just using under-loaded H21’s (or whatever class), or those one-off coke box cars that remained (including GTC26 and GTC29, IIRC). Believe it or not, a handful of the latter ran into the sixties. There were no other dedicated coke cars I can find on the PRR.
Someone I know is doing research on the other cars owned by Frick, et al., that ended up being sold to the PRR as a result of this consolidation to big coke plants like Clairton. I don’t know when that will be available.
The things interesting in the H22 photo are not only the banks of ovens behind, but the “flaked” coke typical of those ovens, in the H22. Something to consider in modeling.
Finally, here is an excerpt from my analysis of industries on the Monongahela Division/Branch, for 1918, 1939, 1945, 1962. Note the precipitous drop between 1918 and 1939, in coke manufacture and loading (from 11 goes to 2). And this is ONLY from industry on the Mon, not the Southwest Branch, MRY, or other feeding or adjacent lines.
Business Traffic by Commodity/Industry - 1962
Here’s also a couple more to whet your appetite, attached. The postcard of box cars at the coke works, 1910: Can you imagine how many cars they torched using un-quenched coke?
Elden Gatwood
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Eric Hansmann
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2020 12:32 PM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] PRR and other coke cars
As noted in the Pennsy gondola book, the GSD cars were out of coke service by 1931.
Several years ago when I was researching the coal fields of north-central West Virginia I stumbled across an interesting nugget. Coke oven operations shut down along the Western Maryland near Belington and in Thomas, WV. Only one remained in Harding, WV, but it would close in 1927 or 28. Coke production had shifted from beehive ovens to the by-product plants and affected these operations far from the mills.
Have you found similar shutdowns in the Connellsville Coal & Coke District that would affect the numbers of cars needed to transport coke?
Eric Hansmann Murfreesboro, TN
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Eric;
Spot on.
I was unable to find the correspondence on the GS cars that went into coke service, but it is clear they did so. They were such early cars, they may have pre-dated the H22 sufficiently that it was OBE.
Elden Gatwood
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Eric Hansmann
Elden,
Some customers may not have needed the cubic capacity that an H22 could deliver.
IIRC from a certain published source, GSD gondolas had some modifications for coke, too.
Eric Hansmann Murfreesboro, TN
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Thanks for sharing that, Bill! Very similar to PRR coke cars of that era.
It appears that most (if not all) coke cars of this type did have the original doors removed as here:
…and that it was then a simple matter of installing the “doors” board-by-board, after which you climbed the ladder, filled the car up, took it to the customer, and bashed the boards out (in) to empty.
I would still like to find the correspondence as to why they didn’t use a dedicated coke hopper like attached H22. It might have been lack of facility to center dump.
Elden Gatwood
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
On Behalf Of william darnaby
Here is a screen shot I snagged off a Herron Rail video of an empty Monon coke car headed back to Indy on an NYC freight out of Bellefontaine, OH in 1955.
Bill Darnaby
From:
main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Mont Switzer
The MONON hauled coke from the Indianapolis Gas and Coke utility to destinations all over the midwest. In our era composite stone gons had boxcar bodies dropped onto them. Roofs were removed for top loading. Door openings were boarded up for loading, boards removed as load was removed.
The composite boxcar bodies had boards removed and were often thought to be stock cars.
As mentioned before, inadequate quenching of the coke combined with air entering the cars as they were hauled in freight trains resulted in fires. On the Monon this usually occurred between Indianapolis and Monon on train 90 which ran in the evenings.
Train crews were good at setting out coke cars that had burst into flames. Local fire departments extinguished the flames, but typically most of the wood was lost.
Mont Switzer
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