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[Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Fidelity Bowser 40’ boxcars (Linde Tank Car)

Bruce Smith
 

OK, I’m a little confused by this conversation.

FIRST - afaik, ALL cars in interchange service were required to show CAPY, LD LMT, and LT WT data and the LT WT data was to be accompanied by either the stencil NEW and a date, or the code for the scale where the car was weighed (or reweighed) and the date, including tank cars.

SECOND - tank cars were not required to be ROUTINELY reweighed (but were reweighed from time to time, particularly when repairs that might significantly affect the LT WT were made).

So, while the first part of Bob’s statement is fine, the second is completely false and does not derive from the first.  ALL tank cars, including Linde Tank Cars, would have weight data and most would have reweigh data.  

Regards

Bruce


Bruce F. Smith            

Auburn, AL

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."




On Oct 10, 2019, at 11:15 AM, Gatwood, Elden J SAD <Elden.J.Gatwood@...> wrote:

.....but they did.  See attached.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Bob Chaparro via Groups.Io
Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2019 10:47 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Fidelity Bowser 40’ boxcars (Linde Tank Car)

As tank cars, I assume there would not have been a reweigh requirement for these cars and the model should not have reweigh stenciling, right?
Bob Chaparro
Hemet, CA




<Linde SERX 974 1974 Hawkins.jpg>

Dave Parker
 

At least through the 1920a and 30s, the MCB/ARA lettering standards did not require a LD LMT stencil on tank cars, only the LT WT and CAPY stencils.  I have seen a LD LMT on a few tank cars, but it was not part of the Standard Practice.

As to whether "most" tank cars would be sporting a reweigh stencil (as opposed to the original light weight), I think this has to be era-dependent.  For 1934, almost all my tank cars have the original, factory-applied light weight, as most of them are <20 years old, and some are <10.

--
Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA

Jack Mullen
 

On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 10:11 AM, Bruce Smith wrote:
So, while the first part of Bob’s statement is fine, the second is completely false and does not derive from the first.  ALL tank cars, including Linde Tank Cars, would have weight data and most would have reweigh data.  
As I read Bob's conjecture, he's not saying that tank cars wouldn't have weight data, just that they "shouldn't" have REweigh dates and revised weights. Not completely false, but an overstatement.
I think the premise may actually be what's incorrect - these cars are classed as XT which is a box car class, not  a T_ tank car.  I'd expect the normal boxcar reweighing requirement would apply.

Jack Mullen

Tony Thompson
 



ALL tank cars, including Linde Tank Cars, would have weight data and most would have reweigh data.  

Nope. Plenty of tank cars had their NEW weight decades after being built. I don’t agree that even “most “ had reweigh. There are thousands of tank car images in the Hendrickson collection, so I am not making this up.
And BTW class XT car were still billed by gallonage, so no real reason to reweigh.
Tony Thompson 


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_._,_._,_

Bruce Smith
 

Tony,

While I don't have Richard's collection at hand, I have looked through the photos I have and counted "new" versus "reweigh" stencils. The ones that are obviously reweighs outnumber the "new" by 61 to 36. I probably looked at around 250 photos.

Some caveats:
-I did not count builder's photos, only photos that were clearly "in service."
-reweigh cars were cars where the Lt Wt did not match either the build date or the tank test date
- new cars were cars where the Lt Wt did match either the build date or tank test date
- the photos range across many years and types of tank cars
-a reasonable number of cars did not seem to show any date with the Lt Wt.
-The majority (~2/3) of the "new" cars were not stenciled "NEW" but rather had no stencil or stencils such as MILT (and you know where that is 😉) Interestingly, AC&F builder's photos show either MILT or NEW.

My take-home is that my statement could be revised to "a majority have reweigh data", but I am tempted to note that since a number of the "new" photos were of clearly new cars in service, that would bias the count so that over their lifetimes, "most" might indeed be correct.

Regards,
Bruce

Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL
 


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Tony Thompson <tony@...>
Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2019 4:10 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io <main@realstmfc.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Fidelity Bowser 40’ boxcars (Linde Tank Car)
 


ALL tank cars, including Linde Tank Cars, would have weight data and most would have reweigh data.  

Nope. Plenty of tank cars had their NEW weight decades after being built. I don’t agree that even “most “ had reweigh. There are thousands of tank car images in the Hendrickson collection, so I am not making this up.
And BTW class XT car were still billed by gallonage, so no real reason to reweigh.
Tony Thompson 


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Tony Thompson
 

No argument in general, but one point to keep in mind is that even when there is a reweigh date, it may be MANY years prior to the photo date, implying it was a repair date, not periodic reweigh. There are lots of those in Richard’s collection.
Tony Thompson 


On Oct 11, 2019, at 12:12 AM, Bruce Smith <smithbf@...> wrote:


Tony,

While I don't have Richard's collection at hand, I have looked through the photos I have and counted "new" versus "reweigh" stencils. The ones that are obviously reweighs outnumber the "new" by 61 to 36. I probably looked at around 250 photos.

Some caveats:
-I did not count builder's photos, only photos that were clearly "in service."
-reweigh cars were cars where the Lt Wt did not match either the build date or the tank test date
- new cars were cars where the Lt Wt did match either the build date or tank test date
- the photos range across many years and types of tank cars
-a reasonable number of cars did not seem to show any date with the Lt Wt.
-The majority (~2/3) of the "new" cars were not stenciled "NEW" but rather had no stencil or stencils such as MILT (and you know where that is 😉) Interestingly, AC&F builder's photos show either MILT or NEW.

My take-home is that my statement could be revised to "a majority have reweigh data", but I am tempted to note that since a number of the "new" photos were of clearly new cars in service, that would bias the count so that over their lifetimes, "most" might indeed be correct.

Regards,
Bruce

Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL
 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Tony Thompson <tony@...>
Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2019 4:10 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io <main@realstmfc.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Fidelity Bowser 40’ boxcars (Linde Tank Car)
 


ALL tank cars, including Linde Tank Cars, would have weight data and most would have reweigh data.  

Nope. Plenty of tank cars had their NEW weight decades after being built. I don’t agree that even “most “ had reweigh. There are thousands of tank car images in the Hendrickson collection, so I am not making this up.
And BTW class XT car were still billed by gallonage, so no real reason to reweigh.
Tony Thompson 


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Eric Hansmann
 

Could a tank car reweigh date reflect some sort of upgrade to the car, like a new tank?


Eric Hansmann
Murfreesboro, TN


On October 11, 2019 at 3:14 AM Tony Thompson <tony@...> wrote:

No argument in general, but one point to keep in mind is that even when there is a reweigh date, it may be MANY years prior to the photo date, implying it was a repair date, not periodic reweigh. There are lots of those in Richard’s collection.
Tony Thompson 



On Oct 11, 2019, at 12:12 AM, Bruce Smith <smithbf@...> wrote:


Tony,

While I don't have Richard's collection at hand, I have looked through the photos I have and counted "new" versus "reweigh" stencils. The ones that are obviously reweighs outnumber the "new" by 61 to 36. I probably looked at around 250 photos.

Some caveats:
-I did not count builder's photos, only photos that were clearly "in service."
-reweigh cars were cars where the Lt Wt did not match either the build date or the tank test date
- new cars were cars where the Lt Wt did match either the build date or tank test date
- the photos range across many years and types of tank cars
-a reasonable number of cars did not seem to show any date with the Lt Wt.
-The majority (~2/3) of the "new" cars were not stenciled "NEW" but rather had no stencil or stencils such as MILT (and you know where that is 😉) Interestingly, AC&F builder's photos show either MILT or NEW.

My take-home is that my statement could be revised to "a majority have reweigh data", but I am tempted to note that since a number of the "new" photos were of clearly new cars in service, that would bias the count so that over their lifetimes, "most" might indeed be correct.

Regards,
Bruce

Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL
 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Tony Thompson <tony@...>
Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2019 4:10 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io <main@realstmfc.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Fidelity Bowser 40’ boxcars (Linde Tank Car)


ALL tank cars, including Linde Tank Cars, would have weight data and most would have reweigh data.  

Nope. Plenty of tank cars had their NEW weight decades after being built. I don’t agree that even “most “ had reweigh. There are thousands of tank car images in the Hendrickson collection, so I am not making this up.
And BTW class XT car were still billed by gallonage, so no real reason to reweigh.
Tony Thompson 

Bruce Smith
 

Eric,

Yes, and repairs as well. Repainting could potentially be included in that list as well, but I have also seen many photos of tank cars that were obviously repainted, but had earlier reweigh (or NEW) dates.

Regards,
Bruce Smith
temporarily located in Birmingham, Al


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Eric Hansmann <eric@...>
Sent: Friday, October 11, 2019 5:47 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Fidelity Bowser 40’ boxcars (Linde Tank Car)
 

Could a tank car reweigh date reflect some sort of upgrade to the car, like a new tank?


Eric Hansmann
Murfreesboro, TN


On October 11, 2019 at 3:14 AM Tony Thompson <tony@...> wrote:

No argument in general, but one point to keep in mind is that even when there is a reweigh date, it may be MANY years prior to the photo date, implying it was a repair date, not periodic reweigh. There are lots of those in Richard’s collection.
Tony Thompson 



On Oct 11, 2019, at 12:12 AM, Bruce Smith <smithbf@...> wrote:


Tony,

While I don't have Richard's collection at hand, I have looked through the photos I have and counted "new" versus "reweigh" stencils. The ones that are obviously reweighs outnumber the "new" by 61 to 36. I probably looked at around 250 photos.

Some caveats:
-I did not count builder's photos, only photos that were clearly "in service."
-reweigh cars were cars where the Lt Wt did not match either the build date or the tank test date
- new cars were cars where the Lt Wt did match either the build date or tank test date
- the photos range across many years and types of tank cars
-a reasonable number of cars did not seem to show any date with the Lt Wt.
-The majority (~2/3) of the "new" cars were not stenciled "NEW" but rather had no stencil or stencils such as MILT (and you know where that is 😉) Interestingly, AC&F builder's photos show either MILT or NEW.

My take-home is that my statement could be revised to "a majority have reweigh data", but I am tempted to note that since a number of the "new" photos were of clearly new cars in service, that would bias the count so that over their lifetimes, "most" might indeed be correct.

Regards,
Bruce

Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL
 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Tony Thompson <tony@...>
Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2019 4:10 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io <main@realstmfc.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Fidelity Bowser 40’ boxcars (Linde Tank Car)


ALL tank cars, including Linde Tank Cars, would have weight data and most would have reweigh data.  

Nope. Plenty of tank cars had their NEW weight decades after being built. I don’t agree that even “most “ had reweigh. There are thousands of tank car images in the Hendrickson collection, so I am not making this up.
And BTW class XT car were still billed by gallonage, so no real reason to reweigh.
Tony Thompson 

Bruce Smith
 

Agreed! And our models should absolutely reflect this. 

Bruce Smith
temporarily in Birmingham, Al


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Tony Thompson <tony@...>
Sent: Friday, October 11, 2019 4:14 AM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io <main@realstmfc.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Fidelity Bowser 40’ boxcars (Linde Tank Car)
 
No argument in general, but one point to keep in mind is that even when there is a reweigh date, it may be MANY years prior to the photo date, implying it was a repair date, not periodic reweigh. There are lots of those in Richard’s collection.
Tony Thompson 


On Oct 11, 2019, at 12:12 AM, Bruce Smith <smithbf@...> wrote:


Tony,

While I don't have Richard's collection at hand, I have looked through the photos I have and counted "new" versus "reweigh" stencils. The ones that are obviously reweighs outnumber the "new" by 61 to 36. I probably looked at around 250 photos.

Some caveats:
-I did not count builder's photos, only photos that were clearly "in service."
-reweigh cars were cars where the Lt Wt did not match either the build date or the tank test date
- new cars were cars where the Lt Wt did match either the build date or tank test date
- the photos range across many years and types of tank cars
-a reasonable number of cars did not seem to show any date with the Lt Wt.
-The majority (~2/3) of the "new" cars were not stenciled "NEW" but rather had no stencil or stencils such as MILT (and you know where that is 😉) Interestingly, AC&F builder's photos show either MILT or NEW.

My take-home is that my statement could be revised to "a majority have reweigh data", but I am tempted to note that since a number of the "new" photos were of clearly new cars in service, that would bias the count so that over their lifetimes, "most" might indeed be correct.

Regards,
Bruce

Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL
 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Tony Thompson <tony@...>
Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2019 4:10 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io <main@realstmfc.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Fidelity Bowser 40’ boxcars (Linde Tank Car)
 


ALL tank cars, including Linde Tank Cars, would have weight data and most would have reweigh data.  

Nope. Plenty of tank cars had their NEW weight decades after being built. I don’t agree that even “most “ had reweigh. There are thousands of tank car images in the Hendrickson collection, so I am not making this up.
And BTW class XT car were still billed by gallonage, so no real reason to reweigh.
Tony Thompson 


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Dave Parker
 

ARA interchange rule 30 called for reweighing whenever a car was "materially changed by repair, alterations or repainting".  This applied to tank cars even though they were not subject to regular, period reweighing.

It's hard to imagine how repainting a tank car would significantly change the light weight (which was always rounded to nearest 100 lbs), and the Rule 30 language implies some discretion as to what a "material" change in weight might be.

My guess is that reweighing of tank cars were most frequently triggered by a swapping out of the trucks,  Until the mid-1920s, all tank cars were delivered with arch-bar or (less commonly) Andrews trucks.  These were eventually replaced with CSF trucks, either by rule (arch-bar) or due to owner preference (Andrews).

Other significant alterations likely included the addition of heating coils.  In their 1921 All About Tank Cars book, the Standard Tank Car Company indicates that the addition of steam coils added 1000 lbs to the weight of the car.

Conversion from KC or (KD) brakes to ABs is also an alteration that likely changed the light weight.  In addition to the changes in hardware and plumbing, alterations to the frame were needed to secure the three components of the AB system.

In some instances, these alterations might have been made concurrently, and perhaps in concert with more subtle "tweaks" to the tank car bodies (e.g., manway covers, safety placard holders, running boards, etc.)

My view is that whether or not a tank had been reweighed depended both on when it was built and when it was photographed.  A 1927 AC&F build might not have undergone any significant alterations until the AB brakes were applied, perhaps 25 years later.  But a similar car built three years prior would have needed new trucks to comply with the 1940 arch-bar ban.  There are many other scenarios that would have dictated exactly when a new light-weight would need to have been stenciled onto the car.
--
Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA