Topics

[Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Photo: Seamless Pipe Fitting Load On GN Flat Car 60031 (1956)


Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Bob, all;

 

These GN cars are very interesting.  I know next to nothing about them, except what I can glean from photos.  I believe it is a well flat, not a well HOLE flat, since it does not look like the floor supports are removable.  I have wondered what GN needed these cars for, since it is usually an on-line customer that needed them.  These shipments were just lucrative enough that RRs could be convinced the roster them, otherwise….not.

 

The side members are surprisingly slender for a more typical well flat, which generally had deep side sills, but there is that u/f, which indicates the well is not that deep….

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bob Chaparro via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2020 1:47 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Photo: Seamless Pipe Fitting Load On GN Flat Car 60031 (1956)

 

Photo: Seamless Pipe Fitting Load On GN Flat Car 60031 (1956)

A photo from the Wisconsin Historical Society:

Blockedhttps://www.wisconsinhistory.org/Records/Image/IM49938

Appears to be a well hole flat car.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Schuyler Larrabee
 

Elden, that is DEFINITELY a well-hole flat.  You can see in the panel where the LD LMT is shown that the bottom of the “pipe fitting” is below the deck.  And all that bracing, the timbers and the tie rods, are clearly temporary.

 

Schuyler

 

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 10:50 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Photo: Seamless Pipe Fitting Load On GN Flat Car 60031 (1956)

 

Bob, all;

 

These GN cars are very interesting.  I know next to nothing about them, except what I can glean from photos.  I believe it is a well flat, not a well HOLE flat, since it does not look like the floor supports are removable.  I have wondered what GN needed these cars for, since it is usually an on-line customer that needed them.  These shipments were just lucrative enough that RRs could be convinced the roster them, otherwise….not.

 

The side members are surprisingly slender for a more typical well flat, which generally had deep side sills, but there is that u/f, which indicates the well is not that deep….

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bob Chaparro via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2020 1:47 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Photo: Seamless Pipe Fitting Load On GN Flat Car 60031 (1956)

 

Photo: Seamless Pipe Fitting Load On GN Flat Car 60031 (1956)

A photo from the Wisconsin Historical Society:

Blockedhttps://www.wisconsinhistory.org/Records/Image/IM49938

Appears to be a well hole flat car.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Schuyler;

 

I don’t read that from either ORER or pic.  It has a wood floor, something you don’t generally have in a well HOLE flat, which has no cross-members beneath the “hole”, which this car has no evidence of.  No shadows beneath the car, either, which you usually see on well hole cars.

 

This looks to me to be a conversion of a “standard” flat car, to one with a shallow well, in which the cross-members/bearers have been replaced in the well, by I-beams either welded, bolted, or riveted (I cannot see), to the bottom of the side sill, and reinforced beneath, for support of the five replacements.  Removable floor supports generally have evidence of them in the form of brackets or additional reinforcements into which bolts are inserted, which do not appear here.

 

I pondered whether this might be a “sectional” well hole flat like PRR’s F49’s, but nothing appears different around a potential removable “section” that comes out to allow a further drop through the floor, like the excellent photo on the cover of the PRRT&HS flat car book.

 

All that being said, I remain open to convincing!

 

Elden Gatwood

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Schuyler Larrabee via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 12:57 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Photo: Seamless Pipe Fitting Load On GN Flat Car 60031 (1956)

 

Elden, that is DEFINITELY a well-hole flat.  You can see in the panel where the LD LMT is shown that the bottom of the “pipe fitting” is below the deck.  And all that bracing, the timbers and the tie rods, are clearly temporary.

 

Schuyler

 

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 10:50 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Photo: Seamless Pipe Fitting Load On GN Flat Car 60031 (1956)

 

Bob, all;

 

These GN cars are very interesting.  I know next to nothing about them, except what I can glean from photos.  I believe it is a well flat, not a well HOLE flat, since it does not look like the floor supports are removable.  I have wondered what GN needed these cars for, since it is usually an on-line customer that needed them.  These shipments were just lucrative enough that RRs could be convinced the roster them, otherwise….not.

 

The side members are surprisingly slender for a more typical well flat, which generally had deep side sills, but there is that u/f, which indicates the well is not that deep….

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bob Chaparro via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2020 1:47 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Photo: Seamless Pipe Fitting Load On GN Flat Car 60031 (1956)

 

Photo: Seamless Pipe Fitting Load On GN Flat Car 60031 (1956)

A photo from the Wisconsin Historical Society:

BlockedBlockedhttps://www.wisconsinhistory.org/Records/Image/IM49938

Appears to be a well hole flat car.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Charlie Vlk
 

All-

According to the Westerfield 1955 ORER disc, there are two such cars, GN 60013 and 60031 (must have run out of decal numbers!!).

Note N states “Dimensions of well in cars numbered 60013 and 60031 are as follows:

Length 20 ft. 6 ½ in., width 6 ft. 2 ½ in.  These cars are equipped with wood loading floors and have 2 four-wheel trucks.  Spacing between truck centers 32 ft. 8 in.; between axles 5 ft. 6 in.  Total wheel base 38 ft. 2 in.”

As there is a wood floor and no mention is made of removable structural members it can be assumed they are not open well cars.

Charlie Vlk

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Schuyler Larrabee via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 11:57 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Photo: Seamless Pipe Fitting Load On GN Flat Car 60031 (1956)

 

Elden, that is DEFINITELY a well-hole flat.  You can see in the panel where the LD LMT is shown that the bottom of the “pipe fitting” is below the deck.  And all that bracing, the timbers and the tie rods, are clearly temporary.

 

Schuyler

 

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 10:50 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Photo: Seamless Pipe Fitting Load On GN Flat Car 60031 (1956)

 

Bob, all;

 

These GN cars are very interesting.  I know next to nothing about them, except what I can glean from photos.  I believe it is a well flat, not a well HOLE flat, since it does not look like the floor supports are removable.  I have wondered what GN needed these cars for, since it is usually an on-line customer that needed them.  These shipments were just lucrative enough that RRs could be convinced the roster them, otherwise….not.

 

The side members are surprisingly slender for a more typical well flat, which generally had deep side sills, but there is that u/f, which indicates the well is not that deep….

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bob Chaparro via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2020 1:47 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Photo: Seamless Pipe Fitting Load On GN Flat Car 60031 (1956)

 

Photo: Seamless Pipe Fitting Load On GN Flat Car 60031 (1956)

A photo from the Wisconsin Historical Society:

Blockedhttps://www.wisconsinhistory.org/Records/Image/IM49938

Appears to be a well hole flat car.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Schuyler Larrabee
 

Charlie, you write:

As there is a wood floor and no mention is made of removable structural members it can be assumed they are not open well cars.

 

“Removable structure” isn’t required for a car to be a well hole flat.  How can you square that with the description you gave, which includes:

“Dimensions of well in cars numbered 60013 and 60031 are as follows:

Length 20 ft. 6 ½ in., width 6 ft. 2 ½ in . . .”

The description SAYS it’s a well hole flat?

 

Elden says he’s willing to be convinced.  Seems to me you’ve provided the proof, yet you say it’s not.


?????????

 

Schuyler

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Charlie Vlk
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 1:45 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Photo: Seamless Pipe Fitting Load On GN Flat Car 60031 (1956)

 

All-

According to the Westerfield 1955 ORER disc, there are two such cars, GN 60013 and 60031 (must have run out of decal numbers!!).

Note N states “Dimensions of well in cars numbered 60013 and 60031 are as follows:

Length 20 ft. 6 ½ in., width 6 ft. 2 ½ in.  These cars are equipped with wood loading floors and have 2 four-wheel trucks.  Spacing between truck centers 32 ft. 8 in.; between axles 5 ft. 6 in.  Total wheel base 38 ft. 2 in.”

As there is a wood floor and no mention is made of removable structural members it can be assumed they are not open well cars.

Charlie Vlk

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Schuyler Larrabee via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 11:57 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Photo: Seamless Pipe Fitting Load On GN Flat Car 60031 (1956)

 

Elden, that is DEFINITELY a well-hole flat.  You can see in the panel where the LD LMT is shown that the bottom of the “pipe fitting” is below the deck.  And all that bracing, the timbers and the tie rods, are clearly temporary.

 

Schuyler

 

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 10:50 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Photo: Seamless Pipe Fitting Load On GN Flat Car 60031 (1956)

 

Bob, all;

 

These GN cars are very interesting.  I know next to nothing about them, except what I can glean from photos.  I believe it is a well flat, not a well HOLE flat, since it does not look like the floor supports are removable.  I have wondered what GN needed these cars for, since it is usually an on-line customer that needed them.  These shipments were just lucrative enough that RRs could be convinced the roster them, otherwise….not.

 

The side members are surprisingly slender for a more typical well flat, which generally had deep side sills, but there is that u/f, which indicates the well is not that deep….

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bob Chaparro via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2020 1:47 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Photo: Seamless Pipe Fitting Load On GN Flat Car 60031 (1956)

 

Photo: Seamless Pipe Fitting Load On GN Flat Car 60031 (1956)

A photo from the Wisconsin Historical Society:

Blockedhttps://www.wisconsinhistory.org/Records/Image/IM49938

Appears to be a well hole flat car.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Charlie Vlk
 

Perhaps I misread that somebody was making a distinction between a flat with a well with a permanent floor and one with a well hole without a floor which inferred special sides that could support a load whether or not it required structural (removeable or custom) stringers of any kind.

Charlie Vlk

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Schuyler Larrabee via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 12:53 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Photo: Seamless Pipe Fitting Load On GN Flat Car 60031 (1956)

 

Charlie, you write:

As there is a wood floor and no mention is made of removable structural members it can be assumed they are not open well cars.

 

“Removable structure” isn’t required for a car to be a well hole flat.  How can you square that with the description you gave, which includes:

“Dimensions of well in cars numbered 60013 and 60031 are as follows:

Length 20 ft. 6 ½ in., width 6 ft. 2 ½ in . . .”

The description SAYS it’s a well hole flat?

 

Elden says he’s willing to be convinced.  Seems to me you’ve provided the proof, yet you say it’s not.


?????????

 

Schuyler

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Charlie Vlk
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 1:45 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Photo: Seamless Pipe Fitting Load On GN Flat Car 60031 (1956)

 

All-

According to the Westerfield 1955 ORER disc, there are two such cars, GN 60013 and 60031 (must have run out of decal numbers!!).

Note N states “Dimensions of well in cars numbered 60013 and 60031 are as follows:

Length 20 ft. 6 ½ in., width 6 ft. 2 ½ in.  These cars are equipped with wood loading floors and have 2 four-wheel trucks.  Spacing between truck centers 32 ft. 8 in.; between axles 5 ft. 6 in.  Total wheel base 38 ft. 2 in.”

As there is a wood floor and no mention is made of removable structural members it can be assumed they are not open well cars.

Charlie Vlk

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Schuyler Larrabee via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 11:57 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Photo: Seamless Pipe Fitting Load On GN Flat Car 60031 (1956)

 

Elden, that is DEFINITELY a well-hole flat.  You can see in the panel where the LD LMT is shown that the bottom of the “pipe fitting” is below the deck.  And all that bracing, the timbers and the tie rods, are clearly temporary.

 

Schuyler

 

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 10:50 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Photo: Seamless Pipe Fitting Load On GN Flat Car 60031 (1956)

 

Bob, all;

 

These GN cars are very interesting.  I know next to nothing about them, except what I can glean from photos.  I believe it is a well flat, not a well HOLE flat, since it does not look like the floor supports are removable.  I have wondered what GN needed these cars for, since it is usually an on-line customer that needed them.  These shipments were just lucrative enough that RRs could be convinced the roster them, otherwise….not.

 

The side members are surprisingly slender for a more typical well flat, which generally had deep side sills, but there is that u/f, which indicates the well is not that deep….

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bob Chaparro via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2020 1:47 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Photo: Seamless Pipe Fitting Load On GN Flat Car 60031 (1956)

 

Photo: Seamless Pipe Fitting Load On GN Flat Car 60031 (1956)

A photo from the Wisconsin Historical Society:

Blockedhttps://www.wisconsinhistory.org/Records/Image/IM49938

Appears to be a well hole flat car.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


mopacfirst
 

I too think it's a well flat (one which has a portion of the floor very close to the rail, compared to the rest of the floor) as opposed to a well hole flat (which seems to me one that has no floor at all in the well, rather having only some structural members that are either fixed or removable in the well area).  Perhaps these two definitions don't really have a clear distinction, in the sense that if the floor is removable, then a well flat becomes a well hole flat.

The evidence for this is that I think I can see the back side of the well sideplates, above the three transverse beams that support (something -- the floor, if it exists) and toward either end of the car from the outboard-most transverse beams.  These transverse beams appear to pass completely across the car as if they are supported symmetrically and identically on the opposite side of the car.  The car also appears to have a floor in the well, as mentioned, because there is only darkness on the track underneath the well.  Whether the floor could be removable or not, that is probably not able to be determined from this photo.  I would further say that this load, whatever it is, could be equally well supported by a floor resting on the beams or on the beams themselves.  It's tied down pretty well by the round bar attached to it, with the bar's other end bent to pass through the stake pockets and (apparently) threaded so that a nut threaded onto the end of that bar bears against a piece of wood that's blocked against the underside of the stake pocket.  Notice that there are no stake pockets in the region of the well, only t-section reinforcements to maintain the structural integrity of the side.

Ron Merrick


Richard Townsend
 

According to the CBC the two terms are synonymous.

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR


-----Original Message-----
From: mopacfirst <ron.merrick@...>
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Sent: Tue, Jul 28, 2020 1:37 pm
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Photo: Seamless Pipe Fitting Load On GN Flat Car 60031 (1956)

I too think it's a well flat (one which has a portion of the floor very close to the rail, compared to the rest of the floor) as opposed to a well hole flat (which seems to me one that has no floor at all in the well, rather having only some structural members that are either fixed or removable in the well area).  Perhaps these two definitions don't really have a clear distinction, in the sense that if the floor is removable, then a well flat becomes a well hole flat.

The evidence for this is that I think I can see the back side of the well sideplates, above the three transverse beams that support (something -- the floor, if it exists) and toward either end of the car from the outboard-most transverse beams.  These transverse beams appear to pass completely across the car as if they are supported symmetrically and identically on the opposite side of the car.  The car also appears to have a floor in the well, as mentioned, because there is only darkness on the track underneath the well.  Whether the floor could be removable or not, that is probably not able to be determined from this photo.  I would further say that this load, whatever it is, could be equally well supported by a floor resting on the beams or on the beams themselves.  It's tied down pretty well by the round bar attached to it, with the bar's other end bent to pass through the stake pockets and (apparently) threaded so that a nut threaded onto the end of that bar bears against a piece of wood that's blocked against the underside of the stake pocket.  Notice that there are no stake pockets in the region of the well, only t-section reinforcements to maintain the structural integrity of the side.

Ron Merrick


Donald B. Valentine
 

    Now I think you’re getting close to the mark Ron. I was wondering if anyone considered the fact that some loads for which a well hole car is needed are shaped in such ways that structural wood or steel bars or beams can be passed through them so they are actually supported but the deck while part of them hangs down through the hole created by the well. Has anyone considered this?

 

Cordially, Don Valentine

 


Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Ron, Schuyler, Don and others interested;

 

I got very interested in these cars from that initial photo submittal, and did some digging.

 

The cars did have a floor, but I have been unable to determine if it was removable in sections or fixed, or what.  The ORERs usually talk about “other”, if it applies.

 

Here is the description:

 

“Dimensions of well…as follows: at deck level – length 20 ft. 6 ½ in., width 6 ft. 2 ½ in.  depth from deck to well floor 2 ft. 3 5/8 in.  Well floor length 18 ft. 0 in. width 6 ft. 2 in.  These cars are equipped with wood loading floors.  Spacing between truck centers:  32 ft. 8 in.  Total wheelbase: 38 ft. 2 in.”

 

The numbers of cars varies over the years, but was 2 or 3 cars out of the series of 60000 to 60033, and in all ways other than the well, look to be the regular old flat cars these guys were converted from.

 

These appear to NOT be as-builts, but a shop conversion, perhaps for that one customer.  They are just too different from a purpose-built well car, which are very different from these cars from an engineering perspective.  Nice job, nevertheless.

 

The fact that they were blocked the way they were is not surprising, given the RRs concerns that folks would load them with the load concentrated on the floors and/or sides, which were the weakest, and next to weakest parts of the car, respectively.  If the load was heavy, it was either suspended on girders or beams, to put most of the load on the end decks, best, above the bolsters, the best place to put the load concentration.

 

I hope that answers some questions.

 

And, BTW, if you ever come across other photos of well or well hole, or most any other depressed flats, PLEASE send them to me on or off-list!

 

Thanks!

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Donald B. Valentine via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2020 8:59 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Photo: Seamless Pipe Fitting Load On GN Flat Car 60031 (1956) now PRR cars

 

 

    Thanks for the PRR photo Schuyler. It proves exactly what I had posted earlier. I believe

The car in your photo has no floor at all and has no need of one. Look at how the short,

Cylindrical load is carried. It is “pinched”, if you will, by large timbers on the regular deck

of the car. Those timbers are then heavily braced to be sure the load cannot drop any lower.

To be doubly sure you will note that there is additional timbering just below its extreme

Height. Thus no floor was needed.

 

Cordially, Don Valentine

 


Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

You bet, Don.

 

Manufacturers of tall loads did design things to fit the clearance diagram, but were constantly pushing the RRs to provide them deeper cars.

 

The most extreme of the “suspended load” concept, IMO, was the so-called “Schnabel” cars, which were designed to suspend big turbines between their two halves, the load being bolted to the car’s bearing surfaces.  Thus, doing away with the need for sides or floor.  Wild concept.

 

In your neck of the woods, the B&M serving the big GE plant on-line had a line of really cool well flats, from which the load was suspended on girders with feet atop the end decks.  Very cool.

 

I have an F&C kit built of that B&M car.  I love it.

 

Elden Gatwood

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Donald B. Valentine via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 7:34 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Photo: Seamless Pipe Fitting Load On GN Flat Car 60031 (1956)

 

    Now I think you’re getting close to the mark Ron. I was wondering if anyone considered the fact that some loads for which a well hole car is needed are shaped in such ways that structural wood or steel bars or beams can be passed through them so they are actually supported but the deck while part of them hangs down through the hole created by the well. Has anyone considered this?

 

Cordially, Don Valentine