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Northern Pacific Boxcar Upgrades 1925

Hudson Leighton
 

Northern Pacific Boxcar Upgrades 1925

-Hudson

Tim O'Connor
 


Rebuilt with steel center sills to replace wooden center sills, wow ! Is that easier than it sounds ?

On 10/1/2022 4:04 PM, Hudson Leighton wrote:

Northern Pacific Boxcar Upgrades 1925

-Hudson

Attachments:



--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

Robert kirkham
 

I’m not sure how to answer that question Tim.  (no one made the youtube video, lol).  However, it was done to thousands of cars in the late teens and 1920s on the CPR alone (and i’m sure on a lot of other RRs).  Almost all the cars rebuilt in this fashion that i’ve crawled under appear to also incorporate steel Z section cross pieces (not sure what to call them) to support the queen posts, with truss rods remaining in place with the steel centre sill after rebuilding.   The photo of the underframe on CP 52850 (almost no remaining paint) shows this.   To me that indicates that a lot of the structure was unchanged when the steel c-sills replaced the wood.  

A number of rebuilt car series on the CPR remained with wood sheathed ends (and a pair of steel posts up the exterior of the ends for support (see the 3/4 view of 52850 (almost no remaining paint))   Many other rebuilt CPR cars received steel ends (Murphy corrugated and Murphy dreadnaught on the CPR).  In some of those situations, such as the 3/4 angle view of  CP 197424 attached (well painted but unusual colour), the ends are this unusual combination of Murphy corrugated and a great big old wood end sill.

Rob

On Oct 1, 2022, at 1:52 PM, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:


Rebuilt with steel center sills to replace wooden center sills, wow ! Is that easier than it sounds ?

On 10/1/2022 4:04 PM, Hudson Leighton wrote:
Northern Pacific Boxcar Upgrades 1925

-Hudson

Attachments:



--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

PDF
PastedGraphic-3.pdf

Hudson Leighton
 

What would a "grain tight sheathing angle" be?

-Hudson

Robert Heninger
 

Hudson,

It’s the angle along the bottom of the side sheathing. It keeps the sheathing boards tight at the bottom of the car so that grain or other lading doesn’t leak out.

Here’s a photo:

The angle runs just under the capacity lettering.

Regards,
Bob Heninger
Minot, ND

gary laakso
 

Maybe the steel bent 90 degrees that ran the length of the outside bottom of the wood sheathing on both sides of the door.

 

Gary L:aakso

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Hudson Leighton
Sent: Saturday, October 1, 2022 3:53 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Northern Pacific Boxcar Upgrades 1925

 

What would a "grain tight sheathing angle" be?

-Hudson

lrkdbn
 

New York Central Lines was a pioneer in the reinforcement of wood cars-they called the steel assembly of steel center sills (with cover plates sometimes top and bottom sometimes only top) steel bolsters and channel or I beam needle beams a "repair steel underframe."and used it on thousands of their older cars from ca. 1912 to the late 20's.as well as some new cars.The end sill was still of wood, even on cars with steel Murphy ends.I believe CPR's setup was very similar.
Larry King

Steve and Barb Hile
 

I know that in the 1920’s, the Rock Island “rebuilt” some boxcars with steel center sill assemblies from Bettendorf.

 

 

The cars were stripped down to the trucks (which were also refurbished) and entirely new bodies with steel Murphy ends were built on the new underframes.

 

 

 

And as a result.  (The 30xxx series number was the series of cars used for the rebuild.)

 

 

Steve Hile

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Robert kirkham
Sent: Saturday, October 1, 2022 4:24 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Northern Pacific Boxcar Upgrades 1925

 

I’m not sure how to answer that question Tim.  (no one made the youtube video, lol).  However, it was done to thousands of cars in the late teens and 1920s on the CPR alone (and i’m sure on a lot of other RRs).  Almost all the cars rebuilt in this fashion that i’ve crawled under appear to also incorporate steel Z section cross pieces (not sure what to call them) to support the queen posts, with truss rods remaining in place with the steel centre sill after rebuilding.   The photo of the underframe on CP 52850 (almost no remaining paint) shows this.   To me that indicates that a lot of the structure was unchanged when the steel c-sills replaced the wood.  

 

A number of rebuilt car series on the CPR remained with wood sheathed ends (and a pair of steel posts up the exterior of the ends for support (see the 3/4 view of 52850 (almost no remaining paint))   Many other rebuilt CPR cars received steel ends (Murphy corrugated and Murphy dreadnaught on the CPR).  In some of those situations, such as the 3/4 angle view of  CP 197424 attached (well painted but unusual colour), the ends are this unusual combination of Murphy corrugated and a great big old wood end sill.

 

Rob

 

On Oct 1, 2022, at 1:52 PM, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:

 


Rebuilt with steel center sills to replace wooden center sills, wow ! Is that easier than it sounds ?

On 10/1/2022 4:04 PM, Hudson Leighton wrote:

Northern Pacific Boxcar Upgrades 1925

-Hudson

Attachments:

 


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

Ray Breyer
 

Sure is: jack up the carbody, unbolt the wood sill, slide the prefab steel sill under the car, bolt into place, done.

Railroads in the 1920s did this to over 100,000 cars (probably closer to 200-300 thousand, but I haven't counted). 

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL


On Saturday, October 1, 2022 at 03:52:34 PM CDT, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:



Rebuilt with steel center sills to replace wooden center sills, wow ! Is that easier than it sounds ?

On 10/1/2022 4:04 PM, Hudson Leighton wrote:
Northern Pacific Boxcar Upgrades 1925

-Hudson

Attachments:



--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

gary laakso
 

Really fine pictures, Steve!  Thank you for sharing.

 

Gary Laakso

Northwest of Mike Brock

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Steve and Barb Hile
Sent: Saturday, October 1, 2022 5:56 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Northern Pacific Boxcar Upgrades 1925

 

I know that in the 1920’s, the Rock Island “rebuilt” some boxcars with steel center sill assemblies from Bettendorf.

 

 

The cars were stripped down to the trucks (which were also refurbished) and entirely new bodies with steel Murphy ends were built on the new underframes.

 

 

 

And as a result.  (The 30xxx series number was the series of cars used for the rebuild.)

 

 

Steve Hile

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Robert kirkham
Sent: Saturday, October 1, 2022 4:24 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Northern Pacific Boxcar Upgrades 1925

 

I’m not sure how to answer that question Tim.  (no one made the youtube video, lol).  However, it was done to thousands of cars in the late teens and 1920s on the CPR alone (and i’m sure on a lot of other RRs).  Almost all the cars rebuilt in this fashion that i’ve crawled under appear to also incorporate steel Z section cross pieces (not sure what to call them) to support the queen posts, with truss rods remaining in place with the steel centre sill after rebuilding.   The photo of the underframe on CP 52850 (almost no remaining paint) shows this.   To me that indicates that a lot of the structure was unchanged when the steel c-sills replaced the wood.  

 

A number of rebuilt car series on the CPR remained with wood sheathed ends (and a pair of steel posts up the exterior of the ends for support (see the 3/4 view of 52850 (almost no remaining paint))   Many other rebuilt CPR cars received steel ends (Murphy corrugated and Murphy dreadnaught on the CPR).  In some of those situations, such as the 3/4 angle view of  CP 197424 attached (well painted but unusual colour), the ends are this unusual combination of Murphy corrugated and a great big old wood end sill.

 

Rob

 

On Oct 1, 2022, at 1:52 PM, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:

 


Rebuilt with steel center sills to replace wooden center sills, wow ! Is that easier than it sounds ?

On 10/1/2022 4:04 PM, Hudson Leighton wrote:

Northern Pacific Boxcar Upgrades 1925

-Hudson

Attachments:

 


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

Ray Breyer
 

PS: just checked the ACF lot list. They built 32,128 replacement steel underframes for a wide variety of customers. Most were for boxcars and gondolas, but the list includes underframes for 6600 reefers and 1262 tank cars.

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL




On Saturday, October 1, 2022 at 07:58:57 PM CDT, Ray Breyer via groups.io <rtbsvrr69@...> wrote:


Sure is: jack up the carbody, unbolt the wood sill, slide the prefab steel sill under the car, bolt into place, done.

Railroads in the 1920s did this to over 100,000 cars (probably closer to 200-300 thousand, but I haven't counted). 

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL


On Saturday, October 1, 2022 at 03:52:34 PM CDT, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:



Rebuilt with steel center sills to replace wooden center sills, wow ! Is that easier than it sounds ?

On 10/1/2022 4:04 PM, Hudson Leighton wrote:
Northern Pacific Boxcar Upgrades 1925

-Hudson

Attachments:



--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

akerboomk
 

While the ORER may be mute for replacement steel center sills (at least for the B&M it is, maybe different for other RRs if they renumbered cars with SCCs into separate series) the ICC valuation data does list (individually for the B&M) which cars had wood, steel, or "composite" underframes.
--
Ken Akerboom

O Fenton Wells
 

Southern RR had over 16,000 of these truss rod cars with steel centersills called SU boxcars up through the 1953 change to AB brakes.  While most were 36 ft length they had some that were 40 ft in length.  Many were converted into pulpwood racks and were upgraded with AB brakes for that service.
Fenton

On Sun, Oct 2, 2022 at 12:01 AM akerboomk <ken-akerboom@...> wrote:
While the ORER may be mute for replacement steel center sills (at least for the B&M it is, maybe different for other RRs if they renumbered cars with SCCs into separate series) the ICC valuation data does list (individually for the B&M) which cars had wood, steel, or "composite" underframes.
--
Ken Akerboom



--
Fenton Wells
250 Frye Rd
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-8106
srrfan1401@...

Eric Hansmann
 

Fenton brings up the classic Southern SU box cars. But, thousands of those were built new in the early 1920s with the steel underframe (SU) and the truss rods. 

I don’t know if the Southern converted older cars. Much of their box car fleet was old by the time of USRA control. 


Eric Hansmann
Murfreesboro, TN

On Oct 2, 2022, at 9:16 AM, O Fenton Wells <srrfan1401@...> wrote:


Southern RR had over 16,000 of these truss rod cars with steel centersills called SU boxcars up through the 1953 change to AB brakes.  While most were 36 ft length they had some that were 40 ft in length.  Many were converted into pulpwood racks and were upgraded with AB brakes for that service.
Fenton

On Sun, Oct 2, 2022 at 12:01 AM akerboomk <ken-akerboom@...> wrote:
While the ORER may be mute for replacement steel center sills (at least for the B&M it is, maybe different for other RRs if they renumbered cars with SCCs into separate series) the ICC valuation data does list (individually for the B&M) which cars had wood, steel, or "composite" underframes.
--
Ken Akerboom



--
Fenton Wells
250 Frye Rd
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-8106
srrfan1401@...
SOU-153970 X-wood_RiversideCA-11Oct1947_mrs2.jpg

Tim O'Connor
 


I'm no mechanical engineer, but don't you have to remove the wood sill first ? And when you do that,
what supports the floor ? I guess if there are truss rods, maybe they are strong enough ? But what are
they attached to ?



On 10/1/2022 8:58 PM, Ray Breyer via groups.io wrote:

Sure is: jack up the carbody, unbolt the wood sill, slide the prefab steel sill under the car, bolt into place, done.

Railroads in the 1920s did this to over 100,000 cars (probably closer to 200-300 thousand, but I haven't counted). 

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL


On Saturday, October 1, 2022 at 03:52:34 PM CDT, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:



Rebuilt with steel center sills to replace wooden center sills, wow ! Is that easier than it sounds ?
On 10/1/2022 4:04 PM, Hudson Leighton wrote:
Northern Pacific Boxcar Upgrades 1925
-Hudson

Attachments:



--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

O Fenton Wells
 

Yes it was and that's most likely why they were the biggest purchasers of 1937 ARA cars in the US.  Interestingly the SR felt that with their car loadings from their on line industries the 36 ft SU was more than adequate for most needs during that time.
Fenton


On Sun, Oct 2, 2022 at 10:35 AM Eric Hansmann <eric@...> wrote:
Fenton brings up the classic Southern SU box cars. But, thousands of those were built new in the early 1920s with the steel underframe (SU) and the truss rods. 

I don’t know if the Southern converted older cars. Much of their box car fleet was old by the time of USRA control. 


Eric Hansmann
Murfreesboro, TN

On Oct 2, 2022, at 9:16 AM, O Fenton Wells <srrfan1401@...> wrote:


Southern RR had over 16,000 of these truss rod cars with steel centersills called SU boxcars up through the 1953 change to AB brakes.  While most were 36 ft length they had some that were 40 ft in length.  Many were converted into pulpwood racks and were upgraded with AB brakes for that service.
Fenton

On Sun, Oct 2, 2022 at 12:01 AM akerboomk <ken-akerboom@...> wrote:
While the ORER may be mute for replacement steel center sills (at least for the B&M it is, maybe different for other RRs if they renumbered cars with SCCs into separate series) the ICC valuation data does list (individually for the B&M) which cars had wood, steel, or "composite" underframes.
--
Ken Akerboom



--
Fenton Wells
250 Frye Rd
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-8106
srrfan1401@...
SOU-153970 X-wood_RiversideCA-11Oct1947_mrs2.jpg



--
Fenton Wells
250 Frye Rd
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-8106
srrfan1401@...

Ray Breyer
 

The Val Reports are only as useful as the person tabulating the valuation. Some roads have virtually no information at all, while others have lots. For example, the NYC family of roads lists each freight car series, and how many have been rebuilt, and with what new appliances.

And keep in mind that the valuations were mostly done in 1917. There was a lot of rebuilding happening between 1921 and 1929 that the reports won't have captured. Still, they're one useful tool in the box.

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL


On Saturday, October 1, 2022 at 11:01:02 PM CDT, akerboomk <ken-akerboom@...> wrote:


While the ORER may be mute for replacement steel center sills (at least for the B&M it is, maybe different for other RRs if they renumbered cars with SCCs into separate series) the ICC valuation data does list (individually for the B&M) which cars had wood, steel, or "composite" underframes.
--
Ken Akerboom

Ray Breyer
 

The Southern started building new boxcars with steel center sills and trussrods in 1914. What the hobby calls "SU" boxcars (and I've yet to see official railroad documentation calling them that) are continuations of the prewar cars, but built with steel ends and roofs.

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL


On Sunday, October 2, 2022 at 09:16:04 AM CDT, O Fenton Wells <srrfan1401@...> wrote:


Southern RR had over 16,000 of these truss rod cars with steel centersills called SU boxcars up through the 1953 change to AB brakes.  While most were 36 ft length they had some that were 40 ft in length.  Many were converted into pulpwood racks and were upgraded with AB brakes for that service.
Fenton

On Sun, Oct 2, 2022 at 12:01 AM akerboomk <ken-akerboom@...> wrote:
While the ORER may be mute for replacement steel center sills (at least for the B&M it is, maybe different for other RRs if they renumbered cars with SCCs into separate series) the ICC valuation data does list (individually for the B&M) which cars had wood, steel, or "composite" underframes.
--
Ken Akerboom



--
Fenton Wells
250 Frye Rd
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-8106
srrfan1401@...

Ray Breyer
 

A traditional all-wood boxcar body is basically a 36-foot long shed with assorted "stuff" bolted on underneath. Loosening or removing the trussrods won't affect anything structurally if there's no load inside, especially if its only for a short time. And the entire process of swapping out a center sill only takes a good shop a couple of hours total.

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL


On Sunday, October 2, 2022 at 10:10:26 AM CDT, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:



I'm no mechanical engineer, but don't you have to remove the wood sill first ? And when you do that,
what supports the floor ? I guess if there are truss rods, maybe they are strong enough ? But what are
they attached to ?



On 10/1/2022 8:58 PM, Ray Breyer via groups.io wrote:
Sure is: jack up the carbody, unbolt the wood sill, slide the prefab steel sill under the car, bolt into place, done.

Railroads in the 1920s did this to over 100,000 cars (probably closer to 200-300 thousand, but I haven't counted). 

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL


On Saturday, October 1, 2022 at 03:52:34 PM CDT, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:



Rebuilt with steel center sills to replace wooden center sills, wow ! Is that easier than it sounds ?
On 10/1/2022 4:04 PM, Hudson Leighton wrote:
Northern Pacific Boxcar Upgrades 1925
-Hudson

Attachments:



--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

Robert kirkham
 

Ray have you tracked cars built & rebuilt with steel underframes versus those built or rebuilt with steel centre sills (and other bits)?  The CPR roster makes this distinction (sometimes inconsistently, but mostly in a predictable way).  

Rob

On Oct 2, 2022, at 12:36 PM, Ray Breyer via groups.io <rtbsvrr69@...> wrote:

The Southern started building new boxcars with steel center sills and trussrods in 1914. What the hobby calls "SU" boxcars (and I've yet to see official railroad documentation calling them that) are continuations of the prewar cars, but built with steel ends and roofs.

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL


On Sunday, October 2, 2022 at 09:16:04 AM CDT, O Fenton Wells <srrfan1401@...> wrote:


Southern RR had over 16,000 of these truss rod cars with steel centersills called SU boxcars up through the 1953 change to AB brakes.  While most were 36 ft length they had some that were 40 ft in length.  Many were converted into pulpwood racks and were upgraded with AB brakes for that service.
Fenton

On Sun, Oct 2, 2022 at 12:01 AM akerboomk <ken-akerboom@...> wrote:
While the ORER may be mute for replacement steel center sills (at least for the B&M it is, maybe different for other RRs if they renumbered cars with SCCs into separate series) the ICC valuation data does list (individually for the B&M) which cars had wood, steel, or "composite" underframes.
--
Ken Akerboom




--
Fenton Wells
250 Frye Rd
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-8106
srrfan1401@...

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