Northern Pacific Boxcar Upgrades 1925


Robert kirkham
 

Do the Valuation Reports happen to include Canadian railways?  (or even just the US operating subsidiaries?) 

Rob

On Oct 2, 2022, at 12:34 PM, Ray Breyer via groups.io <rtbsvrr69@...> wrote:

The Val Reports are only as useful as the person tabulating the valuation. Some roads have virtually no information at all, while others have lots. For example, the NYC family of roads lists each freight car series, and how many have been rebuilt, and with what new appliances.

And keep in mind that the valuations were mostly done in 1917. There was a lot of rebuilding happening between 1921 and 1929 that the reports won't have captured. Still, they're one useful tool in the box.

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL


On Saturday, October 1, 2022 at 11:01:02 PM CDT, akerboomk <ken-akerboom@...> wrote:


While the ORER may be mute for replacement steel center sills (at least for the B&M it is, maybe different for other RRs if they renumbered cars with SCCs into separate series) the ICC valuation data does list (individually for the B&M) which cars had wood, steel, or "composite" underframes.
--
Ken Akerboom


lrkdbn
 

Those Rock Island photos are just about exactly the same as what the NYC did. I wish I could find photos of the NYC cars that are that good!
Larry King


Robert kirkham
 

I think the approach would vary with the design of the boxcar underframe.   The CPR 52xxx series car i showed yesterday had other longitudinal stringers (again, guessing at terminology), which to my eye would be sufficient to bear the weight of the floor of an empty stationary car.   But even if the lack of the centre sill was going to leave a significant unsupported weight, it would be easy enough for the shops to place temporary long beams under the car during the process (similar to when houses are moved).

Rob

On Oct 2, 2022, at 8:09 AM, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:


I'm no mechanical engineer, but don't you have to remove the wood sill first ? And when you do that,
what supports the floor ? I guess if there are truss rods, maybe they are strong enough ? But what are
they attached to ?



On 10/1/2022 8:58 PM, Ray Breyer via groups.io wrote:
Sure is: jack up the carbody, unbolt the wood sill, slide the prefab steel sill under the car, bolt into place, done.

Railroads in the 1920s did this to over 100,000 cars (probably closer to 200-300 thousand, but I haven't counted). 

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL


On Saturday, October 1, 2022 at 03:52:34 PM CDT, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:



Rebuilt with steel center sills to replace wooden center sills, wow ! Is that easier than it sounds ?

On 10/1/2022 4:04 PM, Hudson Leighton wrote:
Northern Pacific Boxcar Upgrades 1925

-Hudson

Attachments:



--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Dennis Storzek
 

The pix are neat, but don't really show what we are talking about. The classic wood freightcar underframe is completely flat on the underside of the sills, to which are bolted the body bolsters, needle beams, and draft sills. The original wood sills remain. Jack up the car, take off those things mounted to the bottom of the wood sills, and the new steel fabrication (which is also flat on top) can be rolled into place, the body lowered and bolted to the steel. The original truss rods can even be reused, threading them over the new bolsters and under the new needle beams. Not a big job at all.

Dennis Storzek


lrkdbn
 

Here's the Railway Age Gazette vol.88 article about the NYC Lines repair steel underframe ca.1912. There were other variations also- some had a different bolster construction, some only had the top cover plate,some had I beam crossties, some had channels,there were differences in rivet spacing. I imagine some came from outside vendors like ACF but have no hard data on this.
Larry King


Ray Breyer
 

On Sunday, October 2, 2022 at 03:09:19 PM CDT, Robert kirkham <rdkirkham@...> wrote:
Do the Valuation Reports happen to include Canadian railways?  (or even just the US operating subsidiaries?) 
Rob


The ICC Valuations only cover common carrier steam railroads within the borders of the United States. Remember that the original intent of the valuations was to assess the actual value of each property, in case the Federal Government decided to nationalize the railroads, and had to pay stockholders for their siezed property.

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL


Tony Thompson
 

Ray Breyer wrote:

 Remember that the original intent of the valuations was to assess the actual value of each property, in case the Federal Government decided to nationalize the railroads, and had to pay stockholders for their siezed property.


I don’t think this is correct. The intent of the valuation was to find out the actual capital value of each railroad, so that a “fair return” on investment could be instituted by the ICC. This was amid ongoing squabbles about whether freight rates were “fair” or not. Those, of course, didn’t get ended until Staggers.

Tony Thompson



Ray Breyer
 

You're thinking of the Transportation Act of 1920. The ICC Val predates that, and was an offshoot of antitrust legislation from the turn of the century.  There was a huge discussion as to whether railroads were "public highways", and there were a few major pushes to nationalize them for the "greater good" (remember how hated the robber barons were at that time).

By 1920 all that had gone by the wayside, and I believe the reports were used to generate data for the 1920 law.

I have the 1920 act on hand, but need to look up the 1913 Valuation Act to see what justification is given for the valuations. I'll have to dredge up congressional transcripts too.

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL




On Monday, October 3, 2022 at 12:09:54 PM CDT, Tony Thompson <tony@...> wrote:


Ray Breyer wrote:


 Remember that the original intent of the valuations was to assess the actual value of each property, in case the Federal Government decided to nationalize the railroads, and had to pay stockholders for their siezed property.


I don’t think this is correct. The intent of the valuation was to find out the actual capital value of each railroad, so that a “fair return” on investment could be instituted by the ICC. This was amid ongoing squabbles about whether freight rates were “fair” or not. Those, of course, didn’t get ended until Staggers.

Tony Thompson



gary laakso
 

Utility rate making utilized the return on investment made by the utility.  Railroad rate making required a value for the railroad’s investment and the 1913 Act was supposed to provide that to the ICC.

 

Gary Laakso

Northwest of Mike Brock

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ray Breyer via groups.io
Sent: Monday, October 3, 2022 10:23 AM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io; main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Northern Pacific Boxcar Upgrades 1925

 

You're thinking of the Transportation Act of 1920. The ICC Val predates that, and was an offshoot of antitrust legislation from the turn of the century.  There was a huge discussion as to whether railroads were "public highways", and there were a few major pushes to nationalize them for the "greater good" (remember how hated the robber barons were at that time).

 

By 1920 all that had gone by the wayside, and I believe the reports were used to generate data for the 1920 law.

 

I have the 1920 act on hand, but need to look up the 1913 Valuation Act to see what justification is given for the valuations. I'll have to dredge up congressional transcripts too.

 

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL

 

 

 

 

On Monday, October 3, 2022 at 12:09:54 PM CDT, Tony Thompson <tony@...> wrote:

 

 

Ray Breyer wrote:

 

 

 Remember that the original intent of the valuations was to assess the actual value of each property, in case the Federal Government decided to nationalize the railroads, and had to pay stockholders for their seized property.

 

 

I don’t think this is correct. The intent of the valuation was to find out the actual capital value of each railroad, so that a “fair return” on investment could be instituted by the ICC. This was amid ongoing squabbles about whether freight rates were “fair” or not. Those, of course, didn’t get ended until Staggers.

 

Tony Thompson

 

 


lrkdbn
 

Here's another repair steel underframe-this one from the D&H which was known for their equipment engineering expertise
Larry King


Alex Schneider
 

Larry,  could you scan the following page too? The article about hot boxes is interesting. 

Thanks 

Alex Schneider 

Alex Schneider

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of lrkdbn via groups.io <lrkdbn@...>
Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2022 8:31:32 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Northern Pacific Boxcar Upgrades 1925
 
Here's another repair steel underframe-this one from the D&H which was known for their equipment engineering expertise
Larry King