Topics

NP Mystery Car

Hudson Leighton <hudsonl@...>
 

This car appears to have been a LCL Transfer Car, but whats with all the small doors?

One suggestion is a sawdust car.

The notes with the photo say Tacoma Division, but one respondent says it looks like Spokane.

-Hudson

Tony Thompson
 

Wood chips. Note lack of roof.
Tony Thompson 


On Feb 25, 2020, at 6:57 PM, Hudson Leighton <hudsonl@...> wrote:

This car appears to have been a LCL Transfer Car, but whats with all the small doors?

One suggestion is a sawdust car.

The notes with the photo say Tacoma Division, but one respondent says it looks like Spokane.

-Hudson
<73510-012 Tacoma NP.jpg>

BRIAN PAUL EHNI
 

Maybe wood chips, but I see roof hatches, one being open.

 

 

Thanks!
--

Brian Ehni

 

 

From: <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Tony Thompson <tony@...>
Reply-To: <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Date: Tuesday, February 25, 2020 at 9:01 PM
To: <main@realstmfc.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] NP Mystery Car

 

Wood chips. Note lack of roof.

Tony Thompson 



On Feb 25, 2020, at 6:57 PM, Hudson Leighton <hudsonl@...> wrote:

This car appears to have been a LCL Transfer Car, but whats with all the small doors?

One suggestion is a sawdust car.

The notes with the photo say Tacoma Division, but one respondent says it looks like Spokane.

-Hudson

<73510-012 Tacoma NP.jpg>

np328
 

   I had always thought the cars LCL however had missed the roof hatches.   The location though is Spokane, looking west and just east of the NP Spokane station, and about to cross over the intersection of Division and Sprague. 

I'll attach some photos from my collections.
  Spokane looking west towards the former NP station, now the only passenger station and beyond the date of this list will be the Amtrak station.  Circa 1928 all photos. 

   From the spur that the photographer was on in the prior photo. A D&RGW gon is being unloaded at A E Powell. Note all the different coal sizes.The car to the left appears to have limestone(?) Over the large pile of coal I believe are the towers of the other two train stations.

At UP tower, (for Mike and Jeff) and that is the UP running from left to right. Note the UP style lower quadrant home signal guarding the NP main. On the lower left, the descending spur has a derail and dwarf signal. I'd always wondered where Lionel copied switch machine shrouds and were they accurate? Looks like they were. And the yard lead beyond the crossing, what kind of modeler would build a yard lead like that?    

East of the downtown area were the Spokane Union Stockyards. They are behind our right shoulder in the photo. The NP mainline is in the trench on the left. 

The NP's Parkwater engine terminal. Turntable is 85 foot. If you thought your modeling space was tight, look at all the frogs at the turntables edge. This was not uncommon for NP. 

The NP's largest (in terms of cars that could be serviced) icing station was at Parkwater. A 1300 foot platform serving 29 refrigerator cars on each side. 

Some Spokane from when switch lanterns were lite each evening.                                                              Jim Dick 

Dennis Storzek
 

On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 12:27 AM, np328 wrote:
  From the spur that the photographer was on in the prior photo. A D&RGW gon is being unloaded at A E Powell. Note all the different coal sizes.The car to the left appears to have limestone(?) Over the large pile of coal I believe are the towers of the other two train stations.
Can't be limestone, waaay too big a car for any mineral product, must either be sawdust or slash. Was cut slash sold as firewood back in those years?

Dennis Storzek

Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
 


Hi Dick and List Members,
 
Thanks Dick for the great photos.
 
The 1919 Car Builders Cyc page 271 shows what looks to be one of these cars (but without roof hatches), car shown is NP 101069. The cation sez "Long Wooden 40-Ton 4030 cu ft Capacity Box Car for Collecting L. C. L. Freight from Team Tracks"
 
You can see the 1919 Car Builders Cyc at this link https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/000552394
 
This next link may possibly take you to the page in question https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015006057858&view=1up&seq=291
 
Claus Schlund
 

----- Original Message -----
From: np328
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2020 3:27 AM
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] NP Mystery Car

   I had always thought the cars LCL however had missed the roof hatches.   The location though is Spokane, looking west and just east of the NP Spokane station, and about to cross over the intersection of Division and Sprague. 

I'll attach some photos from my collections.
  Spokane looking west towards the former NP station, now the only passenger station and beyond the date of this list will be the Amtrak station.  Circa 1928 all photos. 

   From the spur that the photographer was on in the prior photo. A D&RGW gon is being unloaded at A E Powell. Note all the different coal sizes.The car to the left appears to have limestone(?) Over the large pile of coal I believe are the towers of the other two train stations.

At UP tower, (for Mike and Jeff) and that is the UP running from left to right. Note the UP style lower quadrant home signal guarding the NP main. On the lower left, the descending spur has a derail and dwarf signal. I'd always wondered where Lionel copied switch machine shrouds and were they accurate? Looks like they were. And the yard lead beyond the crossing, what kind of modeler would build a yard lead like that?    

East of the downtown area were the Spokane Union Stockyards. They are behind our right shoulder in the photo. The NP mainline is in the trench on the left. 

The NP's Parkwater engine terminal. Turntable is 85 foot. If you thought your modeling space was tight, look at all the frogs at the turntables edge. This was not uncommon for NP. 

The NP's largest (in terms of cars that could be serviced) icing station was at Parkwater. A 1300 foot platform serving 29 refrigerator cars on each side. 

Some Spokane from when switch lanterns were lite each evening.                                                              Jim Dick 

Douglas Harding
 

Notice there is no door on the car, essentially making it an extremely tall gon. That says sawdust or wood chip car when sitting in the Pacific northwest.

 

Doug  Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Dennis Storzek
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2020 8:08 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] NP Mystery Car

 

On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 12:27 AM, np328 wrote:

  From the spur that the photographer was on in the prior photo. A D&RGW gon is being unloaded at A E Powell. Note all the different coal sizes.The car to the left appears to have limestone(?) Over the large pile of coal I believe are the towers of the other two train stations.

Can't be limestone, waaay too big a car for any mineral product, must either be sawdust or slash. Was cut slash sold as firewood back in those years?

Dennis Storzek

Andy Carlson
 

Going back to the era of this car I would presume the car to be a Hog Fuel car, hog fuel being the mill slabs and other mill detritus. Chips were to come around later. The Spokane Portland & Seattle RR had at east one car, pictured in the Morning sun book on SP&S equipment by Ed Austin.

On Wednesday, February 26, 2020, 7:39:09 AM PST, Douglas Harding <doug.harding@...> wrote:


Notice there is no door on the car, essentially making it an extremely tall gon. That says sawdust or wood chip car when sitting in the Pacific northwest.

 

Doug  Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Dennis Storzek
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2020 8:08 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] NP Mystery Car

 

On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 12:27 AM, np328 wrote:

  From the spur that the photographer was on in the prior photo. A D&RGW gon is being unloaded at A E Powell. Note all the different coal sizes.The car to the left appears to have limestone(?) Over the large pile of coal I believe are the towers of the other two train stations.

Can't be limestone, waaay too big a car for any mineral product, must either be sawdust or slash. Was cut slash sold as firewood back in those years?

Dennis Storzek

Tony Thompson
 

Andy Carlson wrote:

Going back to the era of this car I would presume the car to be a Hog Fuel car, hog fuel being the mill slabs and other mill detritus. Chips were to come around later. 

     True about the nomenclature, but not about the product. The great majority of hog fuel that you can see in photos was definitely chips.

Tony Thompson



Todd Sullivan
 

And the "hog" in hog fuel comes from the Norwegian word "hogge" meaning to chop or chip. 

Todd Sullivan

Tony Thompson
 

Todd Sullivan wrote:

And the "hog" in hog fuel comes from the Norwegian word "hogge" meaning to chop or chip. 

The word (with ancestry in old Norse) indeed means to cut, usually in a destructive way (a common usage is to mean "castrate"). Lumber mills still call their chipping machines "hogs, and machinists continue to refer to making a smallish part out of large stock as "hogging."

Tony Thompson



Tim O'Connor
 


A couple of photos of hog fuel. There could be large pieces of wood - like firewood logs -
but those were usually loaded into specialized cars or gondolas. I've included a shot of this too.



On 2/26/2020 11:18 AM, Tony Thompson wrote:
Andy Carlson wrote:

Going back to the era of this car I would presume the car to be a Hog Fuel car, hog fuel being the mill slabs and other mill detritus. Chips were to come around later. 

     True about the nomenclature, but not about the product. The great majority of hog fuel that you can see in photos was definitely chips.

Tony Thompson


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

Andy Carlson
 

I am sure that Gregg Martin would have some useful thoughts about hog fuel. Chipping whole logs for paper mills came about strongly in the 1950s. Prior to that time, hog fuel was mostly from sawmill leftovers which could be be diverted from the slash burners (The teepee Hut fire places) leaving mostly saw dust for on site burning, as it seems buyers for waste wood fuel use did not place a high value for saw dust.

Chipping became a big thing for the burgening North West paper mills with their huge demand for wood fiber which the mills found profits from chipping logs into fairly consistent sized chips. The demand for chips reached the point where whole logs were now chipped, no longer was mill waste with the problems of irregular size as valued.

Tim's photos show the type of non-chip loads on early hog fuel cars. Lots of slash which would have  otherwise been sent into the teepee burners. Chip cars and hog fuel cars were serving different markets.

-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA

On Wednesday, February 26, 2020, 10:08:23 AM PST, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:



A couple of photos of hog fuel. There could be large pieces of wood - like firewood logs -
but those were usually loaded into specialized cars or gondolas. I've included a shot of this too.



On 2/26/2020 11:18 AM, Tony Thompson wrote:

Andy Carlson wrote:

Going back to the era of this car I would presume the car to be a Hog Fuel car, hog fuel being the mill slabs and other mill detritus. Chips were to come around later. 

     True about the nomenclature, but not about the product. The great majority of hog fuel that you can see in photos was definitely chips.

Tony Thompson


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

Daniel A. Mitchell
 

The car clearly has TWO doors on the visible side, with door-tracks still in place. NP and several other roads (GN, PRR, etc.) had such ~55-60’ four-door boxcars. It has since had several smaller low doors added, as well as roof hatches. This is quite similar to other cars used for wood chip, slash, and block service.

Dan Mitchell
==========

On Feb 26, 2020, at 10:39 AM, Douglas Harding <doug.harding@...> wrote:

Notice there is no door on the car, essentially making it an extremely tall gon. That says sawdust or wood chip car when sitting in the Pacific northwest.
 
Doug  Harding
 
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Dennis Storzek
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2020 8:08 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] NP Mystery Car
 
On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 12:27 AM, np328 wrote:
  From the spur that the photographer was on in the prior photo. A D&RGW gon is being unloaded at A E Powell. Note all the different coal sizes.The car to the left appears to have limestone(?) Over the large pile of coal I believe are the towers of the other two train stations.
Can't be limestone, waaay too big a car for any mineral product, must either be sawdust or slash. Was cut slash sold as firewood back in those years?

Dennis Storzek 


Douglas Harding
 

Dan true of the car in the original photo that started this thread. But not of the car in the photo with the coal piles, the car to which Dennis and I were referring.

 

Doug  Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Daniel A. Mitchell
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2020 2:34 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] NP Mystery Car

 

The car clearly has TWO doors on the visible side, with door-tracks still in place. NP and several other roads (GN, PRR, etc.) had such ~55-60’ four-door boxcars. It has since had several smaller low doors added, as well as roof hatches. This is quite similar to other cars used for wood chip, slash, and block service.

 

Dan Mitchell

==========



On Feb 26, 2020, at 10:39 AM, Douglas Harding <doug.harding@...> wrote:

 

Notice there is no door on the car, essentially making it an extremely tall gon. That says sawdust or wood chip car when sitting in the Pacific northwest.

 

Doug  Harding

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Dennis Storzek
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2020 8:08 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] NP Mystery Car

 

On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 12:27 AM, np328 wrote:

  From the spur that the photographer was on in the prior photo. A D&RGW gon is being unloaded at A E Powell. Note all the different coal sizes.The car to the left appears to have limestone(?) Over the large pile of coal I believe are the towers of the other two train stations.

Can't be limestone, waaay too big a car for any mineral product, must either be sawdust or slash. Was cut slash sold as firewood back in those years?

Dennis Storzek 

 

spsalso
 

The car is surely originally from the NP transfer car series:  101000-101049 and 101050-101084, made famous in our circles by Red Ball, as I recall.  Nominally 60' long, with two separate 5'-6" doors on each side.  I believe "transfer" would likely equate to LCL service, and not wood chip or hog fuel.

The car number in the picture is 2X2 (as in 232, 242, 252, etc.)(my vote is 262).  Those numbers were assigned to company service cars.  In particular, numbers from 1 to 295 appear to have been assigned to scrap service at the time, and up until NP was merged.  The cars in scrap service were certainly varied:  109 was a former tank car, and used "for hauling exhausted carbide from welding plant at Brainerd."  292 and 293 were  "composite" gons formerly used as "oxygen" cars, and still retain the 8 side doors from that service.  Their particular usage as scrap cars is not noted.  294 was converted from NP 14029, and called a "yard box", either before or after conversion (it's not clear).  295 was formerly cinder car 205754.

All of the above information is available at the NPRHA site, except that I got the original car numbers from ORER.

As can be seen from the photo modifications to 2X2 include 8-10 roof hatches, with covers, and 12 small side doors, with the doors sliding vertically.  The small side doors are reminiscent of the doors on the oxygen cars.  That would not explain the roof hatches, however.  Dual or multiple usage might.

I believe 2X2 was a company service scrap car.  I have no idea what the scrap was.  I am sure it was frequently loaded through the roof, as why else have the hatches?  And the car and the load were likely not much damaged by the roof loading.  The small side doors could also have been used for loading.  Note, by the way, that, in the photo, some of the roof hatches are open; and 4 out of 6 small side doors are open.


Ed

Edward Sutorik

boro2ang
 

The use of hog fuel in the earlier era was generally for fuel in the boilers of sawmills. 
Later, some was burned in Tee Pee burners along with shavings and sawdust, though shavings became useful for animal bedding.
Hog fuel was typically bark and sapwood fiber that was collected during the process of debarking logs as they entered the mills or further collected at the edger.
Most wood chips at a mill are from the pieces of the ends of the logs that are collected as they are bucked to length after debarking.
Today, most hog fuel is further refined for what we now know as beauty bark.

Bryan Borovec

Doug Paasch
 

I still bemoan the loss of the “good old days” when the sky was blue (even on overcast days) from the tee-pee sawdust burners, and the air burned your nose with its acrid smell.  I also miss the “aroma of Tacoma” and the “smell of it in Everett” from the pulp mills and the ASARCO smelter.  Frankly, I found great beauty in the industrial sprawl and still miss the days when America actually made things instead of importing everything from China.  As for steam era freight car content, I also miss the variety of railroad cars back then versus the boring unit trains of today.  Alas, those days are gone.

 

  Doug Paasch

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Andy Carlson
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2020 11:55 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] NP Mystery Car

 

I am sure that Gregg Martin would have some useful thoughts about hog fuel. Chipping whole logs for paper mills came about strongly in the 1950s. Prior to that time, hog fuel was mostly from sawmill leftovers which could be be diverted from the slash burners (The teepee Hut fire places) leaving mostly saw dust for on site burning, as it seems buyers for waste wood fuel use did not place a high value for saw dust.

 

Chipping became a big thing for the burgening North West paper mills with their huge demand for wood fiber which the mills found profits from chipping logs into fairly consistent sized chips. The demand for chips reached the point where whole logs were now chipped, no longer was mill waste with the problems of irregular size as valued.

 

Tim's photos show the type of non-chip loads on early hog fuel cars. Lots of slash which would have  otherwise been sent into the teepee burners. Chip cars and hog fuel cars were serving different markets.

 

-Andy Carlson

Ojai CA

 

On Wednesday, February 26, 2020, 10:08:23 AM PST, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:

 

 


A couple of photos of hog fuel. There could be large pieces of wood - like firewood logs -
but those were usually loaded into specialized cars or gondolas. I've included a shot of this too.



On 2/26/2020 11:18 AM, Tony Thompson wrote:

Andy Carlson wrote:



Going back to the era of this car I would presume the car to be a Hog Fuel car, hog fuel being the mill slabs and other mill detritus. Chips were to come around later. 

 

     True about the nomenclature, but not about the product. The great majority of hog fuel that you can see in photos was definitely chips.

 

Tony Thompson

 


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

Donald B. Valentine
 

   It's not the Boring unit trains that trouble me as much as it is the damned graffiti all over everything.
People grie to me all the time about the younger generation not having any respect for anything anymore.
Of course they don't, the younger generation isn't smart enough to even have any respect for itself.

Just the way it is, Don Valentine

Matt Smith
 

Well considering spray cans were not invented until the transition era, that is the reason for lack of graffiti on steam era freight cars, not because your generation was smarter or had more respect. Let’s keep the generational ranting out of an otherwise enjoyable hobby.
--
Matt Smith
Bloomington, IL